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#352 Mar 19 2014 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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I know one poster in this thread is a qualified lawyer. Anonymity is a double-edged and ironic sword.

Ukraine gave up its nukes it inherited from the Soviet Union in a treaty that specified NATO and Russia would respect its sovereign borders. Without the nukes they have very little military power. Much as I'm all for *world nuclear disarmament* in hindsight Ukraine was dumb to do so when the USA and Russia aren't disarmed to a similar point.

I mentioned to an arms-dealer, sorry private defense contractor, that I thought the world would be more stable if Libya had nukes, not less. He told me Libya was a radically different situation to Ukraine, and it would definitely be destabilizing and dangerous to the Middle East. He's probably right, but I just can't help feeling mutually-assured-destruction-and-take-the-whole-world-down-with-us should be an equal opportunity game.
#353 Mar 19 2014 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
I know one poster in this thread is a qualified lawyer. Anonymity is a double-edged and ironic sword.

Ukraine gave up its nukes it inherited from the Soviet Union in a treaty that specified NATO and Russia would respect its sovereign borders. Without the nukes they have very little military power. Much as I'm all for *world nuclear disarmament* in hindsight Ukraine was dumb to do so when the USA and Russia aren't disarmed to a similar point.

I mentioned to an arms-dealer, sorry private defense contractor, that I thought the world would be more stable if Libya had nukes, not less. He told me Libya was a radically different situation to Ukraine, and it would definitely be destabilizing and dangerous to the Middle East. He's probably right, but I just can't help feeling mutually-assured-destruction-and-take-the-whole-world-down-with-us should be an equal opportunity game.


It kinda is, which is why Israel, North Korea, Pakistan and India got them as soon as it became apparent that US will not democratize you if you have them.
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#354 Mar 19 2014 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
I think he would because I don't believe he is the scary warmonger that the US media tries to depict him as. I firmly believe that he is a good leader and truly wants to have democratic process. We get desensitized here about how people view Putin he is loved in Russia, the vast majority of the population love him as a leader, but we never hear about that. We hear about the fringe minority that opposes him, because it fits the narrative the west needs to spin to keep its sphere of influence.


And that nice boy Adolph was really popular too! The whole annexing a country that was really made up of his own countrymen anyway wasn't like the start of any problems at all, so what could possibly go wrong?

What's next Neville?
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#355 Mar 19 2014 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
I think he would because I don't believe he is the scary warmonger that the US media tries to depict him as. I firmly believe that he is a good leader and truly wants to have democratic process. We get desensitized here about how people view Putin he is loved in Russia, the vast majority of the population love him as a leader, but we never hear about that. We hear about the fringe minority that opposes him, because it fits the narrative the west needs to spin to keep its sphere of influence.


And that nice boy Adolph was really popular too! The whole annexing a country that was really made up of his own countrymen anyway wasn't like the start of any problems at all, so what could possibly go wrong?

What's next Neville?


I am half waiting for Merkel to say something about peace in our time.
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#356 Mar 19 2014 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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#357 Mar 20 2014 at 9:37 AM Rating: Default
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/18/us-ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSBREA2H0D720140318

Quote:
"Strictly with a view to maintaining Ukraine's unity, the question of joining NATO is not on the agenda," Yatseniuk, who normally speaks in Ukrainian, said in a 10-minute televised appeal delivered in Russian. "The country will be defended by a strong, modern Ukrainian army."


US still not going to get what they want. Makes me wonder how fast the State Department will move on to something else. Considering the whole point of the coup was to get a guy in power who would push for NATO inclusion so Washington could park their missile defense in Moscows backyard.

angrymnk wrote:
I did not expect that.

I was sure the standoff would be a spark. Instead, there was just a surrender.

So... how far west Russia will move now ( because, you know, Russians everywhere have to be protected )?


Well Ukraine military is occupying Russian Territory without request from the local state government. Smiley: lol

Also This much further?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101506025

Quote:
Russian loyalists in the breakaway region of Trans-Dniester, which shares a border with Ukraine, asked the parliament in Russia to write new laws that would allow them to join the country. The Trans-Dniester region split from Moldova around 1990 and made a failed attempt at independence in 2006, when it held a referendum that was unrecognized internationally.

The region did not want to split from the Soviet Union at the time of its collapse and has now requested unity with Russia. Otilia Dhand, vice president at advisory and intelligence firm Teneo Intelligence said Trans-Dniester has been asking to join the Russian Federation for two decades, so now is an opportune moment to ask again.


Does this one count? Is Washington going to respect this regions decision to request to join Russia? I mean its heavily ethnic Russian...Or does it not count because Russia has 1000 troops there as part of the Dniester Security forces (and have for over a decade) in 2006 97% of the population expressed desire to join Russia obviously Putin is puppet mastering this one too. Smiley: lol









Edited, Mar 20th 2014 11:42am by rdmcandie
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#358 Mar 20 2014 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think it's safe to say that Washington realistically gives zero ***** about some landlocked sliver of Moldova although they'd probably make some noise for diplomatic reasons.
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#359 Mar 20 2014 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Washington realistically gives zero @#%^s about some landlocked sliver of Moldova although they'd probably make some noise for diplomatic reasons.
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#360 Mar 20 2014 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Washington realistically gives zero @#%^s about some landlocked sliver of Moldova although they'd probably make some noise for diplomatic reasons.
Given how little they care about the present situation I'd say you're on the right track. Smiley: rolleyes
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#361 Mar 20 2014 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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Didn't Hitler start with places no one else gave a **** about as well?
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#362 Mar 20 2014 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think he ever attacked anything we really cared about. If it wasn't for the Japanese bombing us he probably would have taken all of Europe while we sat around contemplating our thumbs.
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#363 Mar 20 2014 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Didn't Hitler start with places no one else gave a @#%^ about as well?


Nah he started in Spain lots of people got pissed off at that, but the Nationalist movement was to strong and despite 50+ countries contributing to the Republics war effort Franco ultimately took control of the country. Preparations for that Civil War started sometime in 1933, when Hitler along with Mussolini helped push for the Nationalist movement in Spain, which ultimately kicked off their civil war.

He doesn't get much credit for that though since it was mostly behind the scenes stuff, supplies, money, food, and of course "look at me and Muss we are Nationalists and now control our countries you can too!" although some German pilots were used by the Nationalist air force all though this was just regarded as "training" for the Luftwaffe, most of the Air Command in WW2 were pilots who fought with Franco in the Spanish Civil War.


someproteinguy wrote:
I don't think he ever attacked anything we really cared about. If it wasn't for the Japanese bombing us he probably would have taken all of Europe while we sat around contemplating our thumbs.


You mean making bank on supplying and funding the **** war machine which the US did right up until 1942.




Edited, Mar 20th 2014 3:25pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 3:27pm by rdmcandie
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#364 Mar 20 2014 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Ok, sure.
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#365 Mar 20 2014 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Ok, sure.


Its history man. Check out the oil companies (Chevron, Exxon, and Mobil were big players) they supplied Germany heavily, as did Du Pont, Ford, GM, Chase National Bank converted German Currency. There are dozens of other companies that dealt with Germany throughout WW2. Supplying Germany with equipment and oil pulled your country out of the Great Depression. Which is why Hitler is often regarded as the individual who ended the economic blight that was the dirty thirties.

Edit:

An act passed in 1941 was supposed to end this "Dealing with the Enemy" thing, but many companies skirted this because they had legal obligation to fulfill contracts. Chase Bank was indited and went to Federal Court following the War for continuing to exchange currencies for **** Germany (through offshore accounts). Perhaps the biggest ruse was that throughout the war and even following the war the 2nd majority stake holder to some 80% of all American Oil reserves (behind Rockefeller) was IG Farben, a German Chemical company, that had heavy ties to the ****'s.

Such is the way of business. Investors in the US helped build **** Germanys War Machine, they helped maintain it, and then they helped build the Allies War Machine to destroy the ****'s. They made bank. As did the US Government from Tax Revenue, as did the people with jobs. Literally the Industrial Military Complex in action.

(They also supplied USSR and Italy, they did supply Japan too, until Pearl Harbor and most stopped because "Murika and all that)

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 3:57pm by rdmcandie
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#366 Mar 20 2014 at 1:57 PM Rating: Good
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Uh huh...
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#367 Mar 20 2014 at 4:36 PM Rating: Default
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It was a weird experience having to agree with Candie here, but I guess it is possible.

I do get that putting Russia through increasingly annoying sanctions might work better than a full scale escalation, but it seems little weird for a President to, from the getgo, to say, we aren't going to actually use force.

I am far from endorsing McCain or his ideas, because he was the other extreme, but.. hasn't Obama learned anything from the Reset policy?
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#368 Mar 20 2014 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Would anyone believe him if he threatened force anyway?

I mean, the whole ending the world over Ukraine thing again and what not. We can't really "have a war" against Russia so to speak, at least not one that lasted more than a few hours.
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#369 Mar 20 2014 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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We can have wars with countries with ICBMs without using ICBMs.

If we were trying to invade Moscow, it's likely it would escalate to that point, but we've been having limited engagements for the past 60 years or so.
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#370 Mar 20 2014 at 8:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Proxy wars, arming rebel fighters, shooting down a spy plane, that isn't really the same thing.

It'd be one thing to secretly or even more overtly help arm and modernize the Ukrainian military, sure that might well happen, I could grant that. That doesn't mean Obama would admit to doing it publicly by any means. But putting boots on the ground in Crimea (assuming we could even manage to get that far) would certainly be a tipping point. That's a part of the Russian homeland, at least in their eyes. Would we really just roll over and say "well it's only Alaska, we're not going to nuke you?" Even a couple of them being tossed around is a dangerous thing to have happen.
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#371 Mar 20 2014 at 8:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, it is only Alaska.
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#372 Mar 20 2014 at 9:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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But oil! Smiley: nod
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#373 Mar 20 2014 at 9:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Washington realistically gives zero @#%^s about some landlocked sliver of Moldova although they'd probably make some noise for diplomatic reasons.

Moldova sucks!
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#374 Mar 20 2014 at 9:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:

Does this one count? Is Washington going to respect this regions decision to request to join Russia? I mean its heavily ethnic Russian...Or does it not count because Russia has 1000 troops there as part of the Dniester Security forces (and have for over a decade) in 2006 97% of the population expressed desire to join Russia obviously Putin is puppet mastering this one too. Smiley: lol

Edited, Mar 20th 2014 11:42am by rdmcandie


Yeah, and that 97% does not scream at you as mildly suspect? I am even discounting the effect of people with guns making sure you vote right.

You really think it was a valid referendum? I am willing to accept simple show of force (might is right and all that ), but this is just a farce. If you say otherwise, you are naive, blind, stupid, or Canadian ( I am basing that on the fact that only someone really far away from the event itself can misunderstand the event in such a profound manner ).
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#375 Mar 21 2014 at 2:17 AM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I think it's safe to say that Washington realistically gives zero @#%^s about some landlocked sliver of Moldova although they'd probably make some noise for diplomatic reasons.

Moldova sucks!


Had a foreign student from Moldova, I don't think anyone had heard of it previously.
#376 Mar 21 2014 at 2:52 AM Rating: Good
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Had? Did you birth them?
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