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#27 Aug 23 2009 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Being harder science fiction, the idea that a "fluid" designed to operate alien technology could do something as improbable as mutate a person into an alien breaches the hard science reality the movie has established. Shooting myself up with dog dna, sleeping in a dog bed, or doing other dog related stuff doesn't turn me into a dog. Specific, controlled mutations as an unintended consequence of an accidentally administered substance are inconsistent with the hard science the movie has tried to establish. The movie doesn't allow for for this to be a realistic possibility.


It's not a man-made fluid, it's an alien-made fluid. Who's to say the fluid isn't made out of something similar to the HIV virus, where instead of taking over T-cells and eventually destroying the immune system it hijacks all your cells and mutates your dna to match theirs?
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#28 Aug 23 2009 at 7:44 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
it hijacks all your cells and mutates your dna to match theirs?


That's technically what a virus does, isn't it? Injects it's DNA into the cell and causes the cell to create copies of it, and destorys the cell.

Haven't they been studying genetic modification using viruses as the delivery system?

In fact, isn't that the whole premise behind the movie I Am Legend. They developed the virus to change the DNA, and there was a bad side effect, and the virus spread, changing everyones DNA.

If your DNA matches, then the virus wouldn't have any effect on you. If you weren't, then it would change you. Seems a pretty much what this "fluid" does.

Edited, Aug 23rd 2009 11:47pm by TirithRR
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#29 Aug 23 2009 at 8:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Normally I wouldn't argue with Allegory (he's too good at it) but I'm gonna have to go with the other poster in their back-and-forth.

Allegory has used the 'Dog DNA' analogy twice now, and I see where it's coming from. But as someone else has said, it's alien tech.

On the Prawn planet it doesn't follow Earth rules. Earth rule - putting some vehicle gas into a dog wont make it human. It'll make it sick. Prawn rule - putting vehicle gas into a dog (or at least a human) will make it into a Prawn.

Like they said in the movie, Prawn's (workers at least) have no understanding of ownership and respect, at least in the beginning. They would steal cell phones and blow up other people's cars for fun. Obviously rules are different there. Well, so are the physical/universal rules. Whatever substance they use for gas interferes with other races. Or maybe they specifically designed a gas that would do that so if any other race tried to steal their ships they would become Prawns.

I'll also have to pitch in for the 'why' argument. Allegory has said that there must have been some kind of disaster to make them come here. What if something happened on the way? They're exploring/whatever and something happens, they de-activate their stealth systems and make haste to the nearest planet - Earth.

Or maybe one of their newly established colonies was attacked and they had to flee, and Earth was closer than the Homeworld.

And as for the detached, smaller ship under Chris' shack, someone mentioned it could be the core of the mothership. Makes sense I suppose, but it doesn't have to be the heart. Chris (maybe the pilot or the leader of the ship) or someone else jettisoned it down to save it for later, when they could use it to return to the mothership with the fuel, it wasn't really necessary to flying away.
#30 Aug 23 2009 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Monsieur CestinShaman wrote:
On the Prawn planet it doesn't follow Earth rules. Earth rule - putting some vehicle gas into a dog wont make it human. It'll make it sick. Prawn rule - putting vehicle gas into a dog (or at least a human) will make it into a Prawn.

Prawn technology is alien technology, but physics are the same here on earths as they are on prawn world in the movie. It's advanced technology, not magic.

We can all agree that the fluid is designed to operate (or facilitate operating) prawn technology yes? It was not originally designed to mutate humans into aliens; we can all agree on that as well right?

Stable, controlled mutations are very difficult to achieve, whether you're alien or human in the District 9 universe. They cannot be realistically achieved accidentally. Typically if a substance mutates your cells, and it wasn't explicitly designed to mutate them in a very specific way, then your DNA would fudge up. You might start growing an arm from your chest, your t cells might reject your organs, or something else very unstable would occur.

What you're seeing here is the equivalent of tossing a bunch of stones up into the air and them landing on the ground in such a way as to spell "LOL." It's possible, but incredibly unlikely. In order to spell "LOL" on the ground with stones someone would usually have to deliberately place or aim them to achieve that exact result. What is the likelihood of an accident creating such a pattern?
Monsieur CestinShaman wrote:
I'll also have to pitch in for the 'why' argument. Allegory has said that there must have been some kind of disaster to make them come here. What if something happened on the way? They're exploring/whatever and something happens, they de-activate their stealth systems and make haste to the nearest planet - Earth.

That is fairly possible, though I believe they're choosing to stay here after the arrived at earth, since the ship was fully capable of returning, leans in favor of a reason for evacuation. Still the problem isn't that there couldn't be a reason for their ability to return to make sense, but that there wasn't any reason hinted at to explain the situation. This isn't an inconsistency, but it is poor writing.
#31 Aug 24 2009 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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Monsieur CestinShaman wrote:
And as for the detached, smaller ship under Chris' shack, someone mentioned it could be the core of the mothership. Makes sense I suppose, but it doesn't have to be the heart. Chris (maybe the pilot or the leader of the ship) or someone else jettisoned it down to save it for later, when they could use it to return to the mothership with the fuel, it wasn't really necessary to flying away.


If it wasn't the core then it was at least the secondary bridge since through the smaller ship CJ was able to give the signal for all higher-level prawn tech in the immediate area to reactivate, including the mothership as well as the power armor.
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#32 Aug 24 2009 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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It's incredibly unlikely yes, but not impossible. Guess what? THIS IS A MOVIE, THEY GET TO HAVE INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY THINGS HAPPEN. Smiley: motz

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#33 Aug 24 2009 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:

We can all agree that the fluid is designed to operate (or facilitate operating) prawn technology yes? It was not originally designed to mutate humans into aliens; we can all agree on that as well right?


Why would we think that? As soon as Chris saw what happened to the human (forgot his name), he knew exactly what had happened, and he knew it was the fluid. We don't know if the aliens had any intention or not of mutating humans. Their main objective was to gather enough liquid to power the spacecraft, and since it took 20 years to do that, mutating humans was probably not at the top of the list. But if there had been more of the liquid, well maybe they might have used it against humans.
#34 Aug 24 2009 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress Nadenu wrote:
Why would we think that? As soon as Chris saw what happened to the human (forgot his name), he knew exactly what had happened, and he knew it was the fluid. We don't know if the aliens had any intention or not of mutating humans. Their main objective was to gather enough liquid to power the spacecraft, and since it took 20 years to do that, mutating humans was probably not at the top of the list. But if there had been more of the liquid, well maybe they might have used it against humans.

That isn't the problem, the problem is that something that was designed to be a fuel or pwoer scource also happens to mutate humans.

"Hey alien scientists. We need a fuel that is light, compact, highly stable, and sustain a ship for long flights. Also can you make it turn aliens species into prawn?"

Seee the issue? When alien scientists were designing the fluid, their only probable intent was for it to operate alien technology. Designing it for the dual purpose to operate alien technology and mutate humans is ridiculous, which means the mutating humans part was accidental, which is also ridiculous.


Why is it so hard to see that the movie just stuck out its middle finger and said "Because I said so b*tch." That's what happened.[/spoiler]
Deadgye wrote:
THIS IS A MOVIE, THEY GET TO HAVE INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY THINGS HAPPEN.

And that is called bad writing. When things occur in a plot for no reason, make no sense, or are inconsistent with other elements you have deus ex machina or plotonium.

There are elements to like about District 9; the plot isn't one of them.

Edited, Aug 24th 2009 1:37pm by Allegory
#35 Aug 24 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
Plotonium or none, it was a good movie that I really enjoyed.
#36 Aug 24 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Deadgye wrote:
It's incredibly unlikely yes, but not impossible. Guess what? THIS IS A MOVIE, THEY GET TO HAVE INCREDIBLY UNLIKELY THINGS HAPPEN. Smiley: motz



BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, FFFFFFFFFFFFF- (Refer to this. #26.)
#37 Aug 24 2009 at 6:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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ITT: We learn that Allegory was there when the alien scientists were at work.
#38 Aug 25 2009 at 3:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress Nadenu wrote:
ITT: We learn that Allegory was there when the alien scientists were at work.


We should get the admins to change Allegory's title to Prawn Scientist.
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#39 Aug 25 2009 at 4:19 AM Rating: Decent
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It could be possible that the mutation was an unexpected (or at least improbable) side effect. If you remember, the droplets were filtered through a reddish liquid, could that have been modified human DNA? Something Chris altered to pep up the fuel, or perhaps to try to turn a human subject into a Prawn gas pump. That would at least explain his less than surprised reaction to the mutation.

Wikus van de Merw was a seriously f'd up guy at the beginning of the film. He actually gets off on hearing prawn eggs cook off in a fire he directed to be set (pop pop pop pop just like the popcorn), I almost expected to hear him mention plans for a holocaust or something.

His rapid turnaround almost reminded me of SouthPark's "Ginger Horror."

Edited, Aug 25th 2009 5:29am by Kelbar
#40 Aug 25 2009 at 5:14 AM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
Water isn't a complex chemical compound. The analogy is entirely invalid. The fluid didn't perform a simple task like cooling, it was a key magical element that made the ship go. Water also doesn't cause profound genetic mutations. It would be like drinking gasoline turning you into a transformer. It was completely nonsensical.


Try tightly coiled geneseed wrapped around a radioactive core. It would necessarily be a high-energy product, such that it could be used as fuel, as well as an effective bio-transmuter, by effectively launching genetic fragments into the other organisms while simultaneously breaking down their original structure. In addition, if it's development was the result of bioengineering rather than mechanical, then it is very likely that geneseed would be introduced since it would be part of the organism. You'd just need to develop an organ that would ingest material, process it, and toss out a radioactive slurry. It would be akin to bioengineering natural human oils to be produced in a higher quantity and quality in order to create synthetic combustible fuel (Just move the technological gradient upwards).

This could likely work, but I doubt their writers would have half an idea of what was going on.


Edited, Aug 25th 2009 9:24am by Timelordwho
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#41 Aug 25 2009 at 8:43 PM Rating: Good
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There was a ton of non-realistic sh*t in that movie, Allegory, so I'm not sure why you're focusing on just the mutagenic ship fuel. How about the fact that the aliens just happen to be perfectly physically adapted to Earth's gravity level and atmospheric composition? Their absurd love for cat food? I disagree with your assertion that this movie was meant to be "hard" science fiction, despite the somewhat realistic documentary style it was shot in. Much of the movie requires a fairly high level of suspension of disbelief, not that that's always a bad thing.

I thought that the movie was good but not great. I really liked the original plot and the fact that they used all no-name South African actors, but the Apartheid/racism analogy seemed a bit forced at times and most of the military and government officials were basically just walking stereotypes. And the part where the government was conducting secret experiments on the aliens... gee, never saw that coming.

Overall it was pretty entertaining and I'm glad I saw it, but it wasn't the kind of movie that really stuck with me after I left the theater.
#42 Aug 25 2009 at 9:16 PM Rating: Decent
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kylen wrote:
There was a ton of non-realistic sh*t in that movie, Allegory, so I'm not sure why you're focusing on just the mutagenic ship fuel. How about the fact that the aliens just happen to be perfectly physically adapted to Earth's gravity level and atmospheric composition? Their absurd love for cat food? I disagree with your assertion that this movie was meant to be "hard" science fiction, despite the somewhat realistic documentary style it was shot in. Much of the movie requires a fairly high level of suspension of disbelief, not that that's always a bad thing.

I'm focusing on it as an example. Some people here are adamantly intent on believing there is nothing unrealistic (as qualified many times) or inconsistent in this movie. I picked two examples that happened to scream out at me. They certainly aren't the only flaws, just the ones I'm attempting to convince others exist. I was silly to attempt to continue this argument for so long.
kylen wrote:
Overall it was pretty entertaining and I'm glad I saw it, but it wasn't the kind of movie that really stuck with me after I left the theater.

Similar to my feelings. I don't feel I wasted money. I never thought about walking out. I enjoyed it, but I can separate my enjoyment both either liking or believing a film is good. District 9 can be an enjoyable film, but it is not a very good one.
#43 Aug 26 2009 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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Kelbar wrote:
If you remember, the droplets were filtered through a reddish liquid, could that have been modified human DNA? Something Chris altered to pep up the fuel, or perhaps to try to turn a human subject into a Prawn gas pump. That would at least explain his less than surprised reaction to the mutation.


That's an interesting thought. It wasn't that the fluid itself would have done it normally, but that something else he used in conjunction with the fluid refinement process did it. Otherwise, one would imagine that the scientists working on studying alien tech would have come across some of the original fluid and been exposed. Maybe the fluid they need to power the ship is a different form than what they get from their own tech, but they can modify it with retrovirus type tech(or nanites) to be what they need.



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I'll also have to pitch in for the 'why' argument. Allegory has said that there must have been some kind of disaster to make them come here. What if something happened on the way? They're exploring/whatever and something happens, they de-activate their stealth systems and make haste to the nearest planet - Earth.


That's pretty much how I interpreted it from the beginning. They were out in space doing something, be it exploration, colonization, invasion, whatever, and something bad happened. Most of the leadership caste was killed. So they headed to the nearest planet that could support their life, which happened to be ours. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but they could survive the gravity and atmosphere. A command pod that was malfunctioning had to be detached, but they forgot to fill it with fuel first, so it crashed to the ground. The people inside, last of the leadership, work on fixing it, and fix it pretty quickly. However, they didn't have any way to get it back up to the main ship, hell, couldn't even power it on without some fuel. So the workers left on the main ship, having exhausted their food supply and with the system that recycles waste into food to extend rations malfunctioning, start dying to starvation, and are found by the humans in such a state when they decide to enter the ship.

The workers are dumb and cause a few incidents with the locals. The remaining leadership caste members become wary of humans due to retaliation and decide to try to salvage this fluid they need instead of asking the humans to help them secure some more from in the ship.


#44 Aug 28 2009 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Kelbar wrote:

[quote]I'll also have to pitch in for the 'why' argument. Allegory has said that there must have been some kind of disaster to make them come here. What if something happened on the way? They're exploring/whatever and something happens, they de-activate their stealth systems and make haste to the nearest planet - Earth.


That's pretty much how I interpreted it from the beginning. They were out in space doing something, be it exploration, colonization, invasion, whatever, and something bad happened. Most of the leadership caste was killed. So they headed to the nearest planet that could support their life, which happened to be ours. Maybe it wasn't perfect, but they could survive the gravity and atmosphere. A command pod that was malfunctioning had to be detached, but they forgot to fill it with fuel first, so it crashed to the ground. The people inside, last of the leadership, work on fixing it, and fix it pretty quickly. However, they didn't have any way to get it back up to the main ship, hell, couldn't even power it on without some fuel. So the workers left on the main ship, having exhausted their food supply and with the system that recycles waste into food to extend rations malfunctioning, start dying to starvation, and are found by the humans in such a state when they decide to enter the ship.

The workers are dumb and cause a few incidents with the locals. The remaining leadership caste members become wary of humans due to retaliation and decide to try to salvage this fluid they need instead of asking the humans to help them secure some more from in the ship.




I would agree with this synopsis, seems to make the most sense.

Not much information about the whole why and who is given at all in the movie, not really a problem, but it does leave a lot of room for discussions. I do wonder how the prawns will return in 3 years, to take revenge or just to get the survivors back?


I doubt a sequel would work, it's just not necessary too. We know he's mutated completely, but has retained his human emotions and in a couple of years the prawns will be back.

It was unfortunately those stereotypes used in the movie though, humans are completely unwilling to to accept something that is alien to them, favouring abusing them and trying to get all the technology they can off of them and then just kill them.
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