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#152 Mar 05 2014 at 3:43 PM Rating: Good
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#153 Mar 05 2014 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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#154 Mar 05 2014 at 4:59 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
he broader question is the degree to which a government is "authoritarian". How much power does it wield directly over the people. And in that way, communism must always be authoritarian. The degree to which the government controls industry (command economy) must also correspond to a degree of authoritarianism. While capitalism is no guarantee of a less-authoritarian government, it at least allows for it, where communism does not.


No, the syndie breeds are not really authoritarian.


Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses. Actually, let me be more clear: In theory it would be less so, just like in theory Communisim would have no government control over industry either. The problem is that, just as with communism, no attempt to actually implement syndicalism has ever existed that didn't involve the government more or less directly controlling and enforcing the syndicates.

It's just like claiming that public sector unions are really about the will of the workers. Yeah. And I've got a bridge to sell ya!



Um communism is the complete removal of any private control of industry, it is in fact 100% state control of all industry.
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#155 Mar 05 2014 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses.


As I was saying...
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#156 Mar 05 2014 at 5:29 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Um communism is the complete removal of any private control of industry, it is in fact 100% state control of all industry.


Technically, communism is complete control of all industry by the workers of each of those industries (the whole proletariat thing, right?). The problem is that in the real world, the only way communism has ever been implemented has been via government putting the proletariat in charge, which really means putting people in charge of the proletariat, which really means complete government control of industry.

Same deal with the syndicate idea. Sure, in theory, private groups would work together (always envisioned as unions of course), to control and manage industry. But in practice, just as proletariat control of industry only happens if the government puts them in control, syndicate control of industry requires the same thing. Which ultimately means the government chooses who runs industry. Which leads you to government control of industry.

Syndicalism is just a slightly different attempt to fool people into thinking that you can somehow impose heavy government control over industry yet somehow still convince people that "the people" are in control. The folks who think syndicalism is anything other than authoritarianism with a different label are the same folks who always love to try to convince you that "the government is the people" (which I've always found to be a monumentally useless thing to say).
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#157 Mar 05 2014 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:


Sigh. Smash's comment aside, Syndicalism is no less authoritarian, it's just tailored to make it look less so to the uninformed masses.


As I was saying...


You were admitting to be uninformed?
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#158 Mar 05 2014 at 5:43 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Um communism is the complete removal of any private control of industry, it is in fact 100% state control of all industry.


Technically, communism is complete control of all industry by the workers of each of those industries (the whole proletariat thing, right?). The problem is that in the real world, the only way communism has ever been implemented has been via government putting the proletariat in charge, which really means putting people in charge of the proletariat, which really means complete government control of industry.


No, industry is controlled by the state, Its that simple. Whether the people control the state democratically or if it is an autocracy, it is all controlled by the state. There is no private enterprise. Everything in Industry is controlled by the state. Just as every other aspect of society. Its why its called communism. Commune. Community. Communism. It is controlled by everyone, for everyone. (whether the people get to choose their representation is an entirely different matter completely.)



Edited, Mar 5th 2014 6:54pm by rdmcandie
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#159 Mar 05 2014 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a surprising* number of porn fakes of Yulia Tymoshenko when you image search her. And many of them are pretty funny since she always has some fairly stoic expression as she's getting railed in the butt or showing you her fake boobs.


*Well, I guess I shouldn't be 'surprised'...

With that braid halo I'd like to see a mashup of her mixed with Leia porn.
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#160 Mar 05 2014 at 6:13 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Technically, communism is complete control of all industry by the workers of each of those industries (the whole proletariat thing, right?). The problem is that in the real world, the only way communism has ever been implemented has been via government putting the proletariat in charge, which really means putting people in charge of the proletariat, which really means complete government control of industry.


No, industry is controlled by the state, Its that simple. Whether the people control the state democratically or if it is an autocracy, it is all controlled by the state. There is no private enterprise. Everything in Industry is controlled by the state. Just as every other aspect of society. Its why its called communism. Commune. Community. Communism. It is controlled by everyone, for everyone. (whether the people get to choose their representation is an entirely different matter completely.)


Um... Which is why it's controlled "by the people" collectively. You even mentioned the etymology involved in the word "communism". But, as I already said, communism only exists if the government imposes it. Thus, "the people" ends out being "the government". Go read some Marx to get an idea of how communism was envisioned and contrast it to how communism ended out being implemented.

Same deal with syndicalism. No market will naturally evolve to groups of organized labor taking ownership and control over all industries in an economy. It's never happened. The only way it does happen is if government steps in and makes it happen, either by creating the syndicates themselves, or rigging the law to force industries to unionize and then further rigging the law to force the unions to all work together (invariably under direct government control).

Go read up on the Liverpool dock workers strike if you want a great example of how this sort of public/private blending of union and business ends out not really being good for the workers. The problem is that the folks running the unions and the folks running the businesses all end out being the same small group of people, and ultimately all sit at the government's table to make deals. In theory, a syndicate system could work. But in practice, when you put that much power in the hands of a few, government will always step in and make sure it's really in charge. Every, single, time.
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#161 Mar 05 2014 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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You were admitting to be uninformed?


Yup, that's exactly what happened. Me, and thousands of other people who have spent significant portions of careers studying socio-political theory have all been duped by something your childlike intellect realized from a cursory skimming of Wikipedia. That's absolutely it. Makes perfect sense. I mean, why not, it happens all the time, right?

There's an old saying: Meet an @#%^ at 9 am and you met an @#%^. Go through the whole day meeting only @#%^s, YOUR the @#%^. There's a corollary here. See through an attempt to manipulate you at 9 am and you probably avoided being manipulated. See through attempts to manipulate you all day, you're probably a paranoid moron. Sometimes the emperor does have clothes, and assuming he doesn't without looking is as idiotic as believing he does because you were told to.
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#162 Mar 05 2014 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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So enough about me. How about you provide real world examples of syndicalism which do not involve authoritarian government control of the syndicates?
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#163 Mar 05 2014 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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What I'm getting from this is that very few people in this thread understand syndicalism.

Good thing I didn't try to bring in the whole anti-monarchist anarchism-syndicalists, ala Spain.

If you only accept authoritarian, centralized political units as fulfilling the definition of an economic system, it's really going to warp you perceptions.

The one thing A-S is really bad at (even worse than democracies) is warfare.
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#164 Mar 05 2014 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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So enough about me. How about you provide real world examples of syndicalism which do not involve authoritarian government control of the syndicates?


To what end? Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me? I prove you completely and utterly wrong and you insist you were misunderstood? Happens daily without any extra effort on my part. You don't understand this. It's not a question, it's transparently obvious. It seems fairly likely you're incapable of understanding it, which is OK. People have limitations, I can't draw. My 1 year old is better at taking a crayon and representing life on paper than I am. It's all right that he probably has a better grasp of political philosophy than you do. People are different. You probably have a lovely singing voice or something.
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#165 Mar 05 2014 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Good thing I didn't try to bring in the whole anti-monarchist anarchism-syndicalists, ala Spain.


Wow, way to gloat about some bullsh*t knowledge, Time. You can be so Aragont sometimes.
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#166 Mar 05 2014 at 7:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Wow, way to gloat about some bullsh*t knowledge, Time. You can be so Aragont sometimes.

Nah, if you grow up around here, you can't throw a rock without hitting Chomsky giving a talk or some old timer telling you about how great the wobbly hall was.
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#167 Mar 05 2014 at 7:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

So enough about me. How about you provide real world examples of syndicalism which do not involve authoritarian government control of the syndicates?


To what end?


Because if you want to support the claim that syndicalism is not innately authoritarian in the real world versus in theory, it would go a long way if you could actually point to a single case where this is actually true. Remember, I was responding to TLW's claim that "syndie breeds are not really authoritarian". Not, "will not be", or "in theory could not be", he said "are not".

Seems reasonable to ask for an example of this then, right?

Quote:
Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me?


If you are actually right, you get to prove you are. Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right. Refusing to do so is usually going to be taken as an admission that you're wrong, so the most likely reason to do so is if you know you are wrong, but are banking that maybe if you refuse to do so and muddle the conversation enough, and maybe succeed in changing the subject, you can get out of the conversation with some people not realizing this. I mean, that is what you're doing, right? You're not arguing, you're debating. You and I both know that most people don't know the difference.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 5:33pm by gbaji
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#168 Mar 05 2014 at 7:43 PM Rating: Default
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Timelordwho wrote:
If you only accept authoritarian, centralized political units as fulfilling the definition of an economic system, it's really going to warp you perceptions.


I accept that authoritarian, centralized political units sometimes succeed in convincing their populations that they're not. Usually by adopting labels created to describe hypothetical political systems which don't (or even can't) exist in the real world.
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#169 Mar 05 2014 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
[quote]Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me?


If you are actually right, you get to prove you are. Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right.

Really? Anyone who doesn't already know this isn't worth trying to sway.
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#170 Mar 05 2014 at 8:42 PM Rating: Decent
RT
Quote:
Estonian foreign ministry has confirmed the recording of his conversation with EU foreign policy chief is authentic. Urmas Paet said that snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were hired by Maidan leaders.


Prvada
Quote:
According to what has appeared as a leaked telephone conversation between the Estonian Foreign Minister and Catherine Ashton, EU external affairs head, the European Union knew that the snipers firing on crowds in Kiev were not sent by Yanukovich, but rather from the faces behind the coup, which the west supports.


The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which has emerged online.

GlobalResearch
Quote:
“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,” Paet said during the conversation.
“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,” Ashton answered.


DailyK
Quote:
Paet:
“There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition,”
Ashton:
“I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh,”
Paet:
“And second, what was quite disturbing, this same Olga [Bogomolets] told as well that all the evidence shows that the people who were killed by snipers from both sides, among policemen and then people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides,”
Ashton:
“Well, yeah…that’s, that’s terrible.”
Paet:
“So that she then also showed me some photos she said that as a medical doctor she can say that it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened,”


Reuters
Quote:
Estonia denied on Wednesday that a leaked telephone call showed that its foreign minister had blamed opponents of Ukraine's deposed president for sniper killings during last month's unrest - as Russian media have suggested.


Leaked Audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8



Who to believe who to believe. sh*tstorms are awesome.

e(cleaned up a bit)



Edited, Mar 5th 2014 9:48pm by rdmcandie
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#171 Mar 05 2014 at 8:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which emerged online.
None of which disproves the possibility that it was a legitimate traffic study.
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#172 Mar 05 2014 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
lolgaxe wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
The snipers who shot at protesters and police in Kiev were allegedly hired by Maidan leaders, according to a leaked phone conversation between the EU foreign affairs chief Catherine Ashton and Estonian foreign affairs minister, which emerged online.
None of which disproves the possibility that it was a legitimate traffic study.


If everyone had dashcams like they do in russia then that wouldnt be a problem!
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#173 Mar 05 2014 at 8:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right.

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#174 Mar 05 2014 at 9:23 PM Rating: Default
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Who to believe who to believe. sh*tstorms are awesome.

e(cleaned up a bit)[/quote]


Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?

What interesting times we live in.

Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.

I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:29pm by angrymnk

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:29pm by angrymnk

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:30pm by angrymnk

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:30pm by angrymnk
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#175 Mar 05 2014 at 9:51 PM Rating: Decent
angrymnk wrote:

Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?

What interesting times we live in.

Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.
I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.


Propaganda is both more powerful, and much weaker than it has ever been. For people who just watch evening news, check their local news on the net, hear it on the radio, it is very easy to project opinion. But if you are actually interested in the goings on in the news you can access news from all over the globe written in dozens of different view points. The closer you get to Russia the more intense the pro Russia spin is, the closer you get to America the more intense the pro US spin is. The EU is kinda funny because while it is regarded as an international body internally their news takes on the spin of where it is. For instance the stories from Der Spiegl (German) are more in line with Russian thinking than Le Monde (French) are. Which is why the EU as a whole has been more or less hush hush the last week or two because really its ~30 Different opinions on what is happening.

I read news from every continent and in some cases several regions on that continent I think I am up to 20 different news sources that I read, so I can form my own opinion using all the facts and all the perspectives. Propaganda is wasted on me, because I can find a conflicting perspective in under a second. But millions get hosed by it because they don't really care, and can't be bothered to look into the goings on...they just flick on CNN see some Buzz words and think the sky is falling.

Honestly this situation is not as crazy as everyone is making it out to be....assuming Mr Obama and Mr Putin don't decide to go to war over the Ukraine...which is retarded for either to do as it is essentially Greece 2.0 and no one should want that shackle around their ankle.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie
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#176 Mar 05 2014 at 10:08 PM Rating: Default
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
angrymnk wrote:

Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?

What interesting times we live in.

Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.
I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.


Propaganda is both more powerful, and much weaker than it has ever been. For people who just watch evening news, check their local news on the net, hear it on the radio, it is very easy to project opinion. But if you are actually interested in the goings on in the news you can access news from all over the globe written in dozens of different view points. The closer you get to Russia the more intense the pro Russia spin is, the closer you get to America the more intense the pro US spin is. The EU is kinda funny because while it is regarded as an international body internally their news takes on the spin of where it is. For instance the stories from Der Spiegl (German) are more in line with Russian thinking than Le Monde (French) are. Which is why the EU as a whole has been more or less hush hush the last week or two because really its ~30 Different opinions on what is happening.

I read news from every continent and in some cases several regions on that continent I think I am up to 20 different news sources that I read, so I can form my own opinion using all the facts and all the perspectives. Propaganda is wasted on me, because I can find a conflicting perspective in under a second. But millions get hosed by it because they don't really care, and can't be bothered to look into the goings on...they just flick on CNN see some Buzz words and think the sky is falling.

Honestly this situation is not as crazy as everyone is making it out to be....assuming Mr Obama and Mr Putin don't decide to go to war over the Ukraine...which is retarded for either to do as it is essentially Greece 2.0 and no one should want that shackle around their ankle.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie


You are assuming people are rational ( and good altana, I hope they are ).

Also, as a side note,

saying that propaganda is lost on you is like saying that advertising has no effect on you. It isn't, and it does have an effect.

The sooner you admit it to yourself, the better off you will be.
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#177 Mar 05 2014 at 10:14 PM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Seriously, what's the best possible outcome for me?


If you are actually right, you get to prove you are. Even if you don't think you can convince me, it would certainly go a long ways towards convincing anyone else reading this who maybe isn't sure who's right.

Really? Anyone who doesn't already know this isn't worth trying to sway.


And yet, the thread is still missing a single example of a "syndie" that is "not really authoritarian". Let's not forget that TLW said:

Quote:
No, the syndie breeds are not really authoritarian.


Which doesn't just suggest that it's possible for them to not be really authoritarian, but that this is a common/normal feature of them. I'm not even asking him to prove that most of them meet his claim. Just one will do.
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#178 Mar 05 2014 at 10:23 PM Rating: Default
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You know, I'd put a lot more weight into the wild speculations of some guy from Estonia based on meeting one doctor in the area, except that didn't one of the ministers in Ukraine actually authorize the use of deadly force by the police and military to quell the riots? Don't feel like digging up where I read that, but doesn't that kinda makes the whole point moot? I mean, you've got the government authorizing the military to fire on protesters and accounts of government troops actually being seen firing on protesters. Against this we have at best a phone conversation between two people who were not involved in any of this, discussing the possibility that since a doctor claimed that the wounds she was treating for both sides were from the same kind of bullets, it's possible that it wasn't the police who killed those protesters, but some group of snipers agitating the situation by firing at both sides?


I get that his makes for a great plot for a thriller novel, and I'm not even precluding the possibility that someone might do such a thing, but color me incredibly skeptical of that one. I'm going with the more obvious explanation in this case.
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#179 Mar 05 2014 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
angrymnk wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
angrymnk wrote:

Interesting.. I am not completely discounting the possibility.. but did the non-Yanukowich forces also kill, kidnap, beat, and otherwise harass the protesters?

What interesting times we live in.

Then again, Amnesty International has documented cases where "pro-government vigilante groups" attacked peaceful protesters.
I am honestly curious now. I wonder if there is any real chance we will get to see past the propaganda, bs, and fog of media war.


Propaganda is both more powerful, and much weaker than it has ever been. For people who just watch evening news, check their local news on the net, hear it on the radio, it is very easy to project opinion. But if you are actually interested in the goings on in the news you can access news from all over the globe written in dozens of different view points. The closer you get to Russia the more intense the pro Russia spin is, the closer you get to America the more intense the pro US spin is. The EU is kinda funny because while it is regarded as an international body internally their news takes on the spin of where it is. For instance the stories from Der Spiegl (German) are more in line with Russian thinking than Le Monde (French) are. Which is why the EU as a whole has been more or less hush hush the last week or two because really its ~30 Different opinions on what is happening.

I read news from every continent and in some cases several regions on that continent I think I am up to 20 different news sources that I read, so I can form my own opinion using all the facts and all the perspectives. Propaganda is wasted on me, because I can find a conflicting perspective in under a second. But millions get hosed by it because they don't really care, and can't be bothered to look into the goings on...they just flick on CNN see some Buzz words and think the sky is falling.

Honestly this situation is not as crazy as everyone is making it out to be....assuming Mr Obama and Mr Putin don't decide to go to war over the Ukraine...which is retarded for either to do as it is essentially Greece 2.0 and no one should want that shackle around their ankle.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 10:51pm by rdmcandie


You are assuming people are rational ( and good altana, I hope they are ).

Also, as a side note,

saying that propaganda is lost on you is like saying that advertising has no effect on you. It isn't, and it does have an effect.

The sooner you admit it to yourself, the better off you will be.


I think you underestimate my resilience to and ability to filter bullsh*t. I don't swoon over advertising for anything, I don't affiliate with political parties, and I most assuredly don't believe everything I read. Take it as you will friend. I guess im guilty of joining the "non conformist" crowd. but in general my motto is Don't Give a @#%^. and I really don't its awesome being both for, and against everything.

Edited, Mar 5th 2014 11:53pm by rdmcandie
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#180 Mar 05 2014 at 11:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And yet, the thread is still missing a single example of a "syndie" that is "not really authoritarian".


If someone provided you with one, you'd just ignore it and not post in thread anymore.
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#181 Mar 05 2014 at 11:33 PM Rating: Decent
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And yet, the thread is still missing a single example of a "syndie" that is "not really authoritarian".


If someone provided you with one, you'd just ignore it and not post in thread anymore.


Or type us a short novella full of slippery slopes and personal opinion on why such and such ~opposite position~ is true and all the facts and experts are wrong because they just don't get it.
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#182 Mar 06 2014 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
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Seems reasonable to ask for an example of this then, right?

Nope. The reason it's unreasonable is that you're a @#%^ing town drunk on these forums. Yes, you have value, you make everyone else feel better about themselves by virtue of not being you. No, you don't "deserve" an example of something you clearly don't understand. You waving your arms wildly and making random guesses about things I spent years studying at a high level doesn't make our relative opinions equivalent, and deserves exactly zero units of my respect. Which is what you've been given.



Edited, Mar 6th 2014 7:15am by Smasharoo
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#183 Mar 06 2014 at 6:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I accept that authoritarian, centralized political units sometimes succeed in convincing their populations that they're not. Usually by adopting labels created to describe hypothetical political systems which don't (or even can't) exist in the real world.

That's really incisive of you. Enough about capitalism, though.
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#184 Mar 06 2014 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And yet, the thread is still missing a single example of a "syndie" that is "not really authoritarian". Let's not forget that TLW said:


I already did. Look to Spain around the time of the civil war. They had issues with the communists due to not wanting to form large social structures and join the worldwide struggle. Having no formal government is pretty close to the most "not authoritarian" as you can get.
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#185 Mar 06 2014 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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But that's not exactly 100% the answer he wants to the question!
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#186 Mar 06 2014 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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But that's not exactly 100% the answer he wants to the question!

Which is the point, right. The idea that Gbaji is an authority figure we're going to pitch examples to and wait for him to judge them valid or not is laughable. I may as well ask my 1 year old for driving directions.
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#187 Mar 06 2014 at 1:59 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
But that's not exactly 100% the answer he wants to the question!

Which is the point, right. The idea that Gbaji is an authority figure we're going to pitch examples to and wait for him to judge them valid or not is laughable. I may as well ask my 1 year old for driving directions.

Cripes, he wouldn't even let me sleep inside his monestary for night because I failed to praise his mountain.
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#188 Mar 06 2014 at 2:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cripes, he wouldn't even let me sleep inside his monestary for night because I failed to praise his mountain.

Smiley: dubious

Is this a sex thing?
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#189 Mar 06 2014 at 2:31 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Cripes, he wouldn't even let me sleep inside his monestary for night because I failed to praise his mountain.

Smiley: dubious

Is this a sex thing?


I guess you didn't read the parable he posted. Smiley: lol
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#190 Mar 06 2014 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Cripes, he wouldn't even let me sleep inside his monestary for night because I failed to praise his mountain.

Smiley: dubious

Is this a sex thing?


I guess you didn't read the parable he posted. Smiley: lol

Joph is making a mountain out of molehill. Smiley: sly
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#191 Mar 06 2014 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I guess you didn't read the parable he posted. Smiley: lol

Well, duh.
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#192 Mar 06 2014 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
So Obama, and Harper have decided to tell the people of Crimea that democracy only counts if it is democracy that the US and Canada support. Crimean officials have voted to go to a state wide referendum on the future of the Crimean State. The people of Crimea will go to the polls in 10 days to decide whether to remain part of the Ukraine, or join Russia. Obama and Harper have both said that this is against international law, and that they will not support the Crimean peoples democratic decision should they decide to join Russia. They state that the Government in Ukraine is the only one that can afford such a referendum, however the autonomous state has already denounced the government in Kiev as illegitimate and that they would govern themselves until a legitimate government is established, a right they hold under the agreements which gave them autonomy within the Ukrainian political system.

In other news Donestk an Oblast boardering Russia is now seeing numerous pro Russian protesters taking to the street, the government building has been occupied by protesters and the Russian flag has replaced the Ukrainian flag at the building. Ukrainian security forces are involved in the situation and have allegedly assaulted some protesters and detained others. The Russian flag has since been removed and replaced by the Ukrainian Flag and 2 busses have been used to block the government building from further incursion by pro Russian protesters.

This has been your bullsh*t filtered afternoon news mash from EU/US/RUS sources. See you later this evening with the morning press releases from the EU, and Russia!.

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#193 Mar 06 2014 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
So Obama, and Harper have decided to tell the people of Crimea that democracy only counts if it is democracy that the US and Canada support. Crimean officials have voted to go to a state wide referendum on the future of the Crimean State. The people of Crimea will go to the polls in 10 days to decide whether to remain part of the Ukraine, or join Russia.
I was actually a little surprised they went with a "join Russia" thing over a "let's leave Ukraine and be our own country" thing. Seems like the latter would be easier to justify to the international public.

Besides who doesn't like a puppet state? You tell them what to do, and if things go wrong you have a convenient scapegoat. Either way though. I guess we just sit and wait to see what Ukraine does in response. I can't imagine they could interfere without provoking a military response from Russia. There's not really any doubt what the result of the referendum will be. Smiley: rolleyes
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#194 Mar 06 2014 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
Of course there is no doubt. 70% of the population is ethnic Russian. This isn't some Puppet master sh*t. The state is dominated by Russian Culture, Russian Language, Russian Indutry, Russian Security...because the people are Russian. Same with half the damn country. I wouldn't be shocked to see several Russian dominant Oblasts follow Crimea, not because Putin is some brilliant propagandist, but because the people living in these places identify more with Russia then they do with even the Ukrainians let alone the EU or US.

Really there is nothing anyone can do. Its hard to promote democracy when you sh*t on democratic process.

Edited, Mar 6th 2014 5:46pm by rdmcandie
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#195 Mar 06 2014 at 4:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
Of course there is no doubt. 70% of the population is ethnic Russian. This isn't some Puppet master sh*t. The state is dominated by Russian Culture, Russian Language, Russian Indutry, Russian Security...because the people are Russian.
Well yeah, that was more or less my point.
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#196 Mar 06 2014 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
So why call it a puppet state then?
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#197 Mar 06 2014 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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Wasn't the Crimean president guy rapidly appointed after the chaos in Kiev/right before Russian troops landed? And the Crimean government doesn't actually have the authority to hold a referendum about joining Russia/leaving Ukraine to begin with so the vote in 10 days is irrelevant.
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#198 Mar 06 2014 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Wasn't the Crimean president guy rapidly appointed after the chaos in Kiev/right before Russian troops landed? And the Crimean government doesn't actually have the authority to hold a referendum about joining Russia/leaving Ukraine to begin with so the vote in 10 days is irrelevant.


Ya about as rapidly as the current PM of Ukraine was appointed, and about as rapidly as his new government abolished equal language laws for the Russian speaking population. The people of Crimea have the power to do whatever the @#%^ they want. Democracy Mother@#%^er do you understand how it works? People of Crimea don't recognize Kiev as their government anymore, ergo their rules mean nothing. They can denounce it forever, it means sh*t. Crimea will do what Crimea wants to do.

How can you tell people they have no right to do something, while at the same time telling them they must follow laws from a government that is equally illegitimate. No one Voted Yats into power, nor any of the officials he has appointed since then.






Edited, Mar 6th 2014 6:07pm by rdmcandie
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#199 Mar 06 2014 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
So why call it a puppet state then?


You're probably reading more into that then there is.

Every sizable country has states like this. They may share some degree of commonality, but there's one that's dominant economically and politically. Can call it something else if you prefer.

Edited, Mar 6th 2014 3:06pm by someproteinguy
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#200 Mar 06 2014 at 5:10 PM Rating: Decent
someproteinguy wrote:
Stalker rdmcandie wrote:
So why call it a puppet state then?


You're probably reading more into that then there is.

Every sizable country has states like this. They may share some degree of commonality, but there's one that's dominant economically and politically. Can call it something else if you prefer.


I probably am. Just saying it is impossible to quantify Crimea as a puppet when the majority of its population is Russian.
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#201 Mar 06 2014 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meh, it's all shades of grey.
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