We aren't the greatest country anymore...Follow

What was I wrong about?
China at the time of my post was the fastest growing economy, they have pulled over 50% of their population out of poverty, their average income is higher than the US, they are buying up Gold from around the world, they plan to have a gold back currency, they desire Iranian and Russian Oil, they are a member of BRICS. Everything I said about China is fact not prediction. I don't make predictions I make statements based on actual events.

Iran at the time of my post was a democracy, every position is elected even the Ayatollah is voted into power. Iran also has twice in the past attempted to make nuke free middle east pacts, the US turned Iran into a dictatorship, the Iranian people turned it back into a democracy, the US has sanctioned Iran for 30 years with no result, Iran is largely a free nation just like everywhere else, they don't actually hate Israel, (no more than the US hates NK at any rate). Again everything I stated is based on actual facts, not predicting or theorizing, but actual researched information.

But hey call me amusingly wrong about predictions...its a good thing I don't often predict.



OMG an exception! To be fair however Carthage was a city state their "Empire" consisted of a load of other allies and treaties Across North Africa and into Spain. It wasn't the Empire of Carthage. It was the City of Carthage and Allies. But you are correct Carthage used their economic power to build a sizeable army, and make some powerful friends, and powerful enemies. But Carthage itself was never really an Empire, at least not in the way Ottomons were. Keeping with comparisons. Calling Carthage and Empire is like Calling Texas an Empire, just because its part of the US.



Not sure if you have been following the trends but the threat of military has been redundant since the 70's, coincidentally around the same time the US started to collapse as the top dog in the world. Build all the guns you want, and make all the idle threats you want. The threat of War is a relic of the past. The only thing that matters now is economic influence. Something that China has spent 15 years buying from the US. Weapons and Armies are passe and serve no real purpose in the world other than reducing unemployment numbers.

The US isn't an Empire, and I didn't write it off, it will always hold influence, Britain isn't an Empire but it certainly holds sway, so does France, and Germany and Japan. Just because your a "dead" country doesn't mean you do not provide influence still. You kids these days take some words way to literal, sometimes I forget to dumb things down for people. Also I didn't say China or India won't crumble, I also didn't say they would become Empires. Empires are so passe thats why the US is dead...there is a possibility that the US will be the last of the great Empires, simply because the world and society has grown beyond that.


Spoiler
I bet you want to know why the US is no longer the big fish, and why the rest of the world is catching up....Its called Socialism. I don't care if you think it is bad, but the US/Canada and Europe have been spending piles and piles of money developing nations all over the world...now those nations are reaching a point where they are doing the same. China was largely built off the back of the British Laborer, The Middle East on the back of the American, South America is a mix, and Africa was left behind. Now Africa is being cultivated by China. In a sense...Capitalism is paying for Global Socialism. Which is Good, because eventually when we stop being mongs everything will be equal and everyone will have the same fair shake all over the world, because it is the only possible future for our species...other than extinction. In 100 more years the folks will probably laugh at us for having individual flags, and borders, probably be considered tribal and savage too. (That is a prediction so you can laugh at it if you want.)



Edited, Feb 13th 2014 1:01pm by rdmcandie

Lots of reasons. Mostly because it makes your currency stronger over time and without it, it makes your currency weaker over time, there are a pile of other reasons too such as BRICS desiring the Chinese DollaBill be the standard currency, and major oil producers desiring to swap to Gold from USD (hence why there were all those wars and conflicts over the past decade.)

Ive already discussed it in detail though so you can just go find the thread if you are really interested. Or google it.

Edited, Feb 13th 2014 1:21pm by rdmcandie

Mostly because Inflation is inherently poor for an economy and leads to massive income disparity over time on a national level and a weaker currency value overall internationally.

Edited, Feb 13th 2014 9:53pm by rdmcandie

Oh sweet merciful Altana, where to begin?

First of all, and you may not have known this, but exception, contrary to popular belief, does not prove the rule; it tests it. Therefore, saying "OMG exception" does not invalidate the exception provided as an argument. This paragraph was for your benefit, I am honestly not sure if you were aware of this.

Second, I guess we will need to define empire otherwise we will keep throwing any examples that can meet the most broad criteria. My point was that Carthage was an empire of its day. Whatever follows the eventual human plague spread across the galaxy will, probably, be an empire too. And that empire will will laugh at the tiny Earth empires of 21st century. They will think something along the lines of: "Well, duh, US was as much an empire as much as Colony 777 is."



This is the part that amuses me the most.

I do get that the westerners have not seen war and violence in quite a while, I do get that some of them have gotten rather fat, complacent and stupid. I truly do.

But calling it a relic of the past? Just wow.. I really hope you will never have to learn esperanto of violence. It is a universal language for a reason.

You had a better idea about currencies than about war.

Mostly because Inflation is inherently poor for an economy and leads to massive income disparity over time on a national level and a weaker currency value overall internationally.

Nope, not how that works. At all. Also: China not buying gold, zero chance the RMB becomes a gold backed currency, ever. ZERO. To do so would *literally* make it's very existence meaningless. Do you know what nation states use when they want to buy things with gold? @#%^ing gold. Of course none actually do that much these days, because it's an idiotic arbitrary standard to value things via the weight of a yellow metal. You know what they use to buy things? The dollar. Because it's the world's reserve currency. How did that happen? Because using gold or other actual commodities is laughably inefficient and prone wild volatility.

That's why Bretton Woods happened, that's why currently, in the entire world there are ZERO gold backed currencies. Even as a novelty for tiny nation states to attract investors to their currency and assets is sucks.

HYPER inflation is bad. Deflation of any kind is usually bad. Moderate inflation is an engine of economic growth. Without moderate inflation the entire world credit system collapses.

Edited, Feb 14th 2014 8:42am by Smasharoo

Only if you want something that's destined to become a redneck Disneyland.

It brings stability to China's currency which is probably a good thing considering how fast it has grown, and how undervalue it is kept. If they take the cap off they would have rampant inflation which would undo quite a lot of the work they have done in the last 10 years or so. Especially when it comes to the fact they have pulled so many from poverty. If China wants to have the prime trading currency, then it will need to have an open market currency not one that is being capped. So China is buying up as much gold as it can, so it can have an open market currency, because if it does't have anything backing it then it is going to look like Japan. Sure they might have a great internal economy but Japanese Yen is worthless anywhere else in the world.

Secondly its not really that easy for other countries to manipulate your currency. If you own enough gold to be a dominant currency. Then in order to buy gold those countries must purchase you gold. With their money. So their money becomes a bit stronger...but you have that value added to your reserve because you have their currency in exchange. Then you buy gold back from them, using your currency...or their currency you still hold in reserve. Ideally you dump their currency first, so you don't need to generate more of your own, which is why and how inflation is maintained.

You mentioned the spikes previously during in the early 1900's and around the 1930's. This was because the US was making tons of cash to buy European Gold during WWI and WWII. The US became the dominant currency as a result of this simply because they just bought everyones Gold while they fought each other....then in the 50's they decided to abandon Gold all together. This was done because no other countries in the world were really able to invest in America, so America made a currency thats only true value was people accepting that the number written on it was indeed worth the number written on it.

Maybe some American flag vendors and freedom fries?

Firstly, we don't. Secondly they don't have to buy anything. It's in the ground, you just dig in up.

More like all the spikes previously on the graph where the currency of our region was based on gold, or gold and silver, etc.


Edited, Feb 14th 2014 9:11am by someproteinguy

It brings stability to China's currency

Nope. It would do the opposite. See if you can't riddle out why.

First off. We can't turn Fort Knox into a theme park because that's where we're keeping the aliens from Roswell, right?



Oh oh oh!! Pick me. waves hands around. Me! Me... I know the answer!

Seriously though, one of the rare occasions Smash and I will agree on something, so maybe pay attention. China currently has one of the most manipulated currencies in the world. It does this deliberately in order to create artificial trade advantages for itself (and possibly to conceal just how poorly it's "working class" is really doing relative to the rest of the world). The entire reason people point to China and proclaim it as the new fast growing economy is because of this manipulation. If they were to foolishly tie themselves to a physical commodity like gold? The whole house of cards would collapse (even more so than the negative effects of any other nation foolishly adopting a gold standard).


China's entire economic approach is to take advantage of the inherently manipulation-friendly aspects of a floating currency in a semi-command economy to effectively buy itself into a real thriving economy. As Smash kinda touched on earlier, all modern economies are based on a constant controlled inflation. This allows you flexibility with your currency and economic growth to weather economic events which would otherwise sink you. Also, as with China, it allows you to "fake it until you make it". Going to a gold standard would strand China at the bottom of a very steep economic hole.

Edited, Feb 14th 2014 5:07pm by gbaji

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of differences (just as there's a veritable gulf between me and Smash on economic issues in general). But on the basic question of why a gold standard is bad (and in China's case really really bad) it's going to be pretty common among pretty much anyone who hasn't drunk the "gold standard is best!" punch.

We are in consensus here because the gold standard is fucking moronic.