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#52 Feb 05 2014 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, from what I saw (and I didn't watch all of it), Bill gave a bunch of facts and asked a bunch of questions and Ken Ham responded with bible verses and telling everyone that god is awesome.

This is why these things should never happen....
#53 Feb 05 2014 at 1:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoalHeart wrote:
I don't think that either should be taught in a science class as the origin of life.

Creationism fails to provide what most would consider empirical, quantifiable data, complete with verifiable predictions.

Evolutionary theory does have representative data and makes verifiable predictions, but it only pertains to life that already exists.


Neither theory explains the origin of life in a repeatable manner. Either God(s) magically created us, or inert, primordial soup magically came to life. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

If a science class really is based on "facts", then the correct answer at this point to the origin of life question is "We don't actually know".



Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:33pm by CoalHeart

There's nothing magical about amino acids. Given the right starting elements, a liquid solution, and enough time (which we had) Some form of protein based life was inevitable. Those suckers had hundreds of millions of years to randomly start assembling in interesting ways.
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#54 Feb 05 2014 at 3:07 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
This is why these things should never happen....
It isn't like it could have gone any other way, really.

Except maybe slap fight.
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#55 Feb 05 2014 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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#56 Feb 05 2014 at 4:19 AM Rating: Default
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Aripyanfar wrote:
CoalHeart wrote:
I don't think that either should be taught in a science class as the origin of life.

Creationism fails to provide what most would consider empirical, quantifiable data, complete with verifiable predictions.

Evolutionary theory does have representative data and makes verifiable predictions, but it only pertains to life that already exists.


Neither theory explains the origin of life in a repeatable manner. Either God(s) magically created us, or inert, primordial soup magically came to life. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

If a science class really is based on "facts", then the correct answer at this point to the origin of life question is "We don't actually know".



Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:33pm by CoalHeart

There's nothing magical about amino acids. Given the right starting elements, a liquid solution, and enough time (which we had) Some form of protein based life was inevitable. Those suckers had hundreds of millions of years to randomly start assembling in interesting ways.


Yeah, I was taught that in 3rd grade as well. Doesn't mean it's scientifically, provably true though. For something so obviously inevitable it sure seems to be hiding everywhere else we've been looking. Nor can we reproduce it or give a step by step of how it happened. It all just boils down to the same old cliche'. "Given enough time, it had to happen."

We know all the amino acids involved. We know how and what proteins are synthesized. We understand organic chemistry, Yet, even with all this knowledge, the basic building blocks and our modern technology we can't reproduce it. We're not starting from scratch here, it should be simple. And yet it's never been done. W';ve never created life. Not even simple pond scum.

I agree that it seems probable given the time scale involved, but that in no way means it happened. Saying with authority that it did is as unscientific as anyone could possibly be.


Edited, Feb 5th 2014 5:24am by CoalHeart
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#57 Feb 05 2014 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, they did stitch together DNA from various bacteria to make a very basic bacteria that met all the criteria for life. We didn't make it completely from scratch, though. It's a Frankencell.

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#58 Feb 05 2014 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
Actually, they did stitch together DNA from various bacteria to make a very basic bacteria that met all the criteria for life. We didn't make it completely from scratch, though. It's a Frankencell.



That's certainly a step in the right direction. I happen to think it's most probable that certain things only combine certain ways and given billions of years one of those ways is going to be what we call life. My issue is stating things as a "fact" when we don't know. That's very unscientific.


Just believing something in science is no difference than just believing religion.


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#59 Feb 05 2014 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoalHeart wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Actually, they did stitch together DNA from various bacteria to make a very basic bacteria that met all the criteria for life. We didn't make it completely from scratch, though. It's a Frankencell.



That's certainly a step in the right direction. I happen to think it's most probable that certain things only combine certain ways and given billions of years one of those ways is going to be what we call life. My issue is stating things as a "fact" when we don't know. That's very unscientific.


Just believing something in science is no difference than just believing religion.




Is it stated as a "fact," though? I always thought that evolution is a Scientific Theory because we can see proof in the fossils. The origin of life, however, is a hypothesis still.


Edited, Feb 5th 2014 10:27am by Belkira
#60 Feb 05 2014 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoalHeart wrote:
We know all the amino acids involved. We know how and what proteins are synthesized. We understand organic chemistry, Yet, even with all this knowledge, the basic building blocks and our modern technology we can't reproduce it. We're not starting from scratch here, it should be simple.
It's not that simple. Smiley: mad

We don't have a clue how the whole thing works on a fundamental level, seriously we don't. There's a couple of places where knowledge is starting to gel, we learn about Glycolysis or the citric acid cycle in school, but these are more exception that rules. Just to take one example the most common experiment I'm asked to analyze are immunoprecipitation experiments. These are basically taking one protein, and attempting to see what can bind to it. We're trying to build these pathways one step at a time.

It's complicated, some things bind better than others, some things seemingly bind to everything, context is important. You have to follow up in other ways. Is this protein being seen here or there. Is it really in the cell membrane at this time? What else does it do? No one protein does one thing. If it's floating around in there odds are it's going to react with something. Pure chaos, that sack of random chemicals. We don't even understand what 90% of the DNA does on a basic level. Junk DNA my ***, that stuff we thought we threw away seems to keep doing things we don't expect. Good luck stitching all that together. Give us a few hundred years of doing this, hopefully someone makes some leap in technology that makes this knowledge come faster, but building even a basic system one block at a time is painful.
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#61 Feb 05 2014 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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So the rl;dr is that there are endless factors and possibilities and we haven't had millions of years to get it right. We also don't know nearly enough to do it in any other way than trial and error to see what does and doesn't work.

Did I get that right?
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#62 Feb 05 2014 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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So the tl;dr is SCIENCE!!

Did I get that right?


FTFY.
#63 Feb 05 2014 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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#64 Feb 05 2014 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So the rl;dr is that there are endless factors and possibilities and we haven't had millions of years to get it right. We also don't know nearly enough to do it in any other way than trial and error to see what does and doesn't work.

Did I get that right?
Go up to a couple of kids give them a photograph of a house, a buck of nails, a hammer and a saw, $25, and have them try to build what was in the picture.

Best analogy I can think of. We don't have the experience we need, all the tools we'd like to have, any clue what the inside of the house is supposed to be like, or nearly enough funding to get anything meaningful done. Add to that our mom is telling us to stop messing around because it's time to come inside and do our homework.
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#65 Feb 05 2014 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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We're not starting from scratch here, it should be simple.

Yeah, no. The mechanic might turn out to be simple, guessing what it is should about as simple as "I'm thinking of a number from 1 to 100 quadrillion, why haven't you guessed it, yet? It's 193235. See, simple. God rulz."

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#66 Feb 05 2014 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Evolution is not a fact. It's not a single action reaction. It's a theory that's been pieced together with millions of years of evidence. Ok, get that, evolution = theory. It's the concept that best fits the empirical evidence. If and when the evidence disproves it will not longer be theory. More likely is evidence will strengthen it and mold it into a better theory.

Religion is not a theory. It's not based on evidence it's based on faith. It's not science. It's belief.

These creationist zealots should be torched as heretics, as Christianity is all about maintaining the faith - not demanding proof of it.





Edited, Feb 5th 2014 11:07pm by Elinda
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#67 Feb 05 2014 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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[quote=Elinda]evolution = theory ******************** mutations always causing amino acid substitutions ******** up perfectly good peptide fragmentation patterns. Smiley: glare
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#68 Feb 06 2014 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.
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#69 Feb 06 2014 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.


But monkeys still exist, Smash. Therefor evolution is wrong!
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#70 Feb 06 2014 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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And redheads. If your evolution was a reality then why am *I* here?
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#71 Feb 06 2014 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cause red hair maked girls twice as hot. You're an unfortunate side effect.
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#72 Feb 06 2014 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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And redheads. If your evolution was a reality then why am *I* here?


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#73 Feb 06 2014 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
And redheads. If your evolution was a reality then why am *I* here?
Ur a mutant.
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#74 Feb 06 2014 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.

Ok, I can go with that - evolving the verb, is taking place all the time. Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

Nothing explains Debalic.



Edited, Feb 6th 2014 9:18pm by Elinda
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#75 Feb 06 2014 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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But monkeys still exist, Smash. Therefor evolution is wrong!

It's scientifically impossible for winged monkeys to fly. Yet we have The Wizard of Oz.

Point: God.
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#76 Feb 06 2014 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.

Ok, I can go with that - evolution the verb, is taking place all the time. Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

Nothing explains Debalic.



Evolution is not a verb, and there is no difference in the two anyway.

Some mutations are adaptive. Some are maladaptive. Some are neutral. When mutations are adaptive such that the lucky critters affected are more prone to reproduce and pass on their genes, we call it evolution.

What some people insist on calling macroevolution as opposed to the politically acceptable microevolution (after all, we know flu viruses mutate constantly, so there's no arguing against that one) is simply short sightedness. They refuse, or are perhaps intellectually unable, to take the long view.
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#77 Feb 06 2014 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.

Ok, I can go with that - evolving the verb, is taking place all the time. Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

Nothing explains Debalic.



Evolution is not a verb, and there is no difference in the two anyway.

Some mutations are adaptive. Some are maladaptive. Some are neutral. When mutations are adaptive such that the lucky critters affected are more prone to reproduce and pass on their genes, we call it evolution.

What some people insist on calling macroevolution as opposed to the politically acceptable microevolution (after all, we know flu viruses mutate constantly, so there's no arguing against that one) is simply short sightedness. They refuse, or are perhaps intellectually unable, to take the long view.

Sorry for my grammatical incorrectness.

Evolution is a theory.
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#78 Feb 06 2014 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.

Ok, I can go with that - evolution the verb, is taking place all the time. Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

Nothing explains Debalic.



Evolution is not a verb, and there is no difference in the two anyway.

Some mutations are adaptive. Some are maladaptive. Some are neutral. When mutations are adaptive such that the lucky critters affected are more prone to reproduce and pass on their genes, we call it evolution.

What some people insist on calling macroevolution as opposed to the politically acceptable microevolution (after all, we know flu viruses mutate constantly, so there's no arguing against that one) is simply short sightedness. They refuse, or are perhaps intellectually unable, to take the long view.



This about sums up the gap I think. People can observe small changes but they are unable (or unwilling) to link said changes into a chronological archetype. I think some folks are either ignorantly shortsighted or just @#%^ing stupid. The Human species didn't just get shat out one day, it was a multilayered process that saw many incarnations of "subhuman" species...we have evidence of all of these itterations of the evolutionary process. One small change at a time, over the span of likely hundreds of millions of years brought us to where we are today...same with every living organism on this planet.

The best part I think is that there exists the possibility for creationism and evolution to coexist. Just because we know we evolved doesn't dismiss the potential liklihood that we did so to a grand design. Our current species could be simply the final version of a cumulative project. "God" a disenfranchised Genetic Engineer failed dozens of times in taking a foreign cell structure and making it into his image, until one day he succeeded in tweaking genetics to the point that "WE" blinked into existence. **** for all we know Neanderthals were just a failed genetic concept that should have stayed on the drawing board in the heavens. Perhaps Satan got tired of Gods sh*tting up natural processes and decided to go rouge and protect a singular species from further genetic modification, maybe we are rooting for the wrong guy?

Its not really any different from us having the potential to impact the evolutionary process. You could say that we have created microorganisms that are much stronger and adaptive than they ever were going to be naturally. We observe this all the time from illnesses being immune to certain remedies, right up to insects becoming immune to certain pesticides. Technically you could argue that we have been responsible for the creation of whole new subspecies because of our tampering in the natural way of things....

or we are just along for a ride on a roller coaster we can't get off.

Edited, Feb 6th 2014 3:24pm by rdmcandie
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#79 Feb 06 2014 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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I actually like the wiki section on Theories and Laws (on the Scientific Theory page).

Quote:
Both scientific laws and scientific theories are produced from the scientific method through the formation and testing of hypotheses, and can predict the behavior of the natural world. Both are typically well-supported by observations and/or experimental evidence.[23] However, scientific laws are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.[24] Scientific theories are broader in scope, and give overarching explanations of how nature works and why it exhibits certain characteristics. Theories are supported by evidence from many different sources, and may contain one or several laws.[25]

A common misconception is that scientific theories are rudimentary ideas that will eventually graduate into scientific laws when enough data and evidence has been accumulated. A theory does not change into a scientific law with the accumulation of new or better evidence. A theory will always remain a theory; a law will always remain a law.[23][26]

Theories and laws are also distinct from hypotheses. Unlike hypotheses, theories and laws may be simply referred to as scientific fact.[27][28]


People tend to think of theories as things that "need evidence." That's not the case. A Scientific Theory is something that has progressed WELL past the threshold for proof.
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#80 Feb 06 2014 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Right. Evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory.

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#81 Feb 06 2014 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
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Gravity was made up by the British government to fool German pilots in the Second World War.
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#82 Feb 06 2014 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Well, good job! Well done, lads.
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#83 Feb 06 2014 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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Honestly, I don't think anyone expected this one to be so successful. If anyone at GCHQ was capable of feeling it, it'd be a real source of embarrassment.

No choice but to play along now, really. It's really holding back the space programme, but what can you do.
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#84 Feb 06 2014 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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No choice but to play along now, really. It's really holding back the space programme, but what can you do.


This seems appropriate. (Eddie Izzard is always appropriate.)


#85 Feb 06 2014 at 6:50 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

You can sell it that way if you want. You could also say evolution is a theory explaining why your doctor is prescribing you a different medication for your now drug resistant viral infection.
#86 Feb 07 2014 at 8:40 AM Rating: Good
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The best part I think is that there exists the possibility for creationism and evolution to coexist. Just because we know we evolved doesn't dismiss the potential liklihood that we did so to a grand design. Our current species could be simply the final version of a cumulative project. "God" a disenfranchised Genetic Engineer failed dozens of times in taking a foreign cell structure and making it into his image, until one day he succeeded in tweaking genetics to the point that "WE" blinked into existence. **** for all we know Neanderthals were just a failed genetic concept that should have stayed on the drawing board in the heavens. Perhaps Satan got tired of Gods sh*tting up natural processes and decided to go rouge and protect a singular species from further genetic modification, maybe we are rooting for the wrong guy?


I don't know about a 'grand design', but I do agree that there's room for both. The amazing thing about belief in the major religions is that you can replace the word "angels" with the word "aliens" and suddenly, the stories make sense as interpretations of things humans didn't have the language to explain when the texts were written.

Were we ooze? Probably. Why are there still apes? A subset of apes, perhaps the most advanced ones on the planet when "God" arrived here were altered in some way and set on a different path. Those non-coding sequences someone mentioned? Some of it isn't seen in anything else on the entire planet.

This path of study is fascinating because we are an entire race with a really bad case of amnesia. *Something* happened, but we don't know what it was. We've had influence and help from *someone*, but we don't know who it is.

I say teach both in schools, but in their respective places. We're eventually going to find the link between the two, and we do need to keep what little memory of our history we do have alive.
#87 Feb 07 2014 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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#88 Feb 07 2014 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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#89 Feb 07 2014 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Right. Evolution is a theory like gravity is a theory.

I tend to equate it with plate tectonics, but that's just the abused geologist in me.

The point being that Evolution - science is all about the observable, the provable, the repeatable. Religion is profoundly not.

The two can coexist and have through out humanity. The creationists of today don't seem faithful or devoted. Their goals seem completely political in nature versus spiritual.




Edited, Feb 7th 2014 4:11pm by Elinda
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#90 Feb 07 2014 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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#91 Feb 07 2014 at 9:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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#92 Feb 07 2014 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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The two can coexist

Nope. You can't have "truth is what we observe in nature validated by experiment and repetition" "coexist" with "truth is what the invisible man in the sky had a fellow write down in a book 5000 years ago"


and have through out humanity.

Yeah, 'coexist'. There's never been any attempt by organized religion to hamper scientific inquiry.

Grow the fuck up and just post "I think religion is ok and helps people". You don't have to spin this imaginary ******** out of whole cloth to somehow justify religion and science coexisting when there's no historical basis for it. You'd be wrong, obviously, but at least not willfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#93 Feb 07 2014 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
The two can coexist

Nope. You can't have "truth is what we observe in nature validated by experiment and repetition" "coexist" with "truth is what the invisible man in the sky had a fellow write down in a book 5000 years ago"

You can observe and even search for truth and still be faithful to a higher power.




Quote:
Grow the @#%^ up and just post "I think religion is ok and helps people". You don't have to spin this imaginary bullsh*t out of whole cloth to somehow justify religion and science coexisting when there's no historical basis for it. You'd be wrong, obviously, but at least not willfully ignorant or intellectually dishonest.
You grow the @#%^ up and admit that maybe there are limits to our feeble little human minds and there are things we'll never understand.

edit - god why is it so hard to say the f-word around here?!



Edited, Feb 7th 2014 4:43pm by Elinda
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#94 Feb 07 2014 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Eatin' bananas and playing with your dong ain't that bad of a life.

Specially if you got a pet frog.
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29,480 posts
You can observe and even search for truth and still be faithful to a higher power.

No, you can't. You can compartmentalize part of yourself and limit your 'search for truth' to a subset of things because you 'believe' something you don't want to see threatened. What you can't do is adhere to two philosophies about the unknown that are mutually exclusive. The function of both religion and science is to explain the unknown. Two methods, on authoritarian, one experimental. One adapts to data that doesn't meet expectations, one appeals to mystery and mysticism. It's virtually impossible that religion is "right" about *anything*. The instant a religion offers some idea it quantifies as 'truth' it's doing harm to science.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#96 Feb 07 2014 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
29,480 posts
You grow the @#%^ up and admit that maybe there are limits to our feeble little human minds and there are things we'll never understand.

Yours? Sure.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#97 Feb 07 2014 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Smasharoo wrote:
"truth is what the invisible man in the sky had a fellow write down in a book 5000 years ago"

How come you need to automatically just jump to the Abrahamic religions, Smash? Is it because you're racist?

I'm petitioning for my son's biology class to teach that marine life was formed from Sedna's severed fingers.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#98 Feb 07 2014 at 9:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,991 posts
"The obstacle to discovery is the illusion of knowledge." ~ A little quote that graces the courtyard outside our lab.

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That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#99 Feb 07 2014 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
29,480 posts
How come you need to automatically just jump to the Abrahamic religions, Smash? Is it because you're racist?

I'm petitioning for my son's biology class to teach that marine life was formed from Sedna's severed fingers.


Had to look that up. Good story, I'll have to show it to Hannah later.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#100 Feb 07 2014 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Outside my workplace is a sign that says "Deliveries in the rear". I try to live by it.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#101 Feb 07 2014 at 9:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
*****
11,991 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Outside my workplace is a sign that says "Deliveries in the rear". I try to live by it.
Sounds like more of a Google thing.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
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