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#52 Oct 18 2013 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I've worked at phone book delivery, census taker and McDonald's, to corporate helpdesk and support services. If necessary no job is beneath me. I started out in a solidly middle-class family and have come down a rung or two from there, due mainly to apathy (or more likely/accurately laziness).
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#53 Oct 18 2013 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
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It really depends on where you set your limit at what you're considering fast food, nowadays. Chipotle is WAY better than Taco Bell. As good as an authentic Mexican restaurant? No. But when I leave Chipotle, it's not generally to find the nearest bathroom.
It's apparently not uncommon for Chipotle to cause a run for the bathroom.Very Mildly NSFW. I just wish they'd stop putting cilantro in gorram everything.


I'm guessing you are one of those weirdos that think cilantro tastes like soap?
It's just bitter. Don't like it.
#54 Oct 19 2013 at 5:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Most of the poor people I know (which is few since I don't associate with poor people) over value their self worth and are unwilling to work a job that is beneath them or for someone who doesn't treat them like having them work for them is a privilege.

My ex had the curious impression that it was somehow more degrading to work at Taco Bell than it is to have people repossess your car. Go figure.


That matches my #5. You might be surprised on how many people follow that logic. I knew a guy who was trying to break into the IT world, but was struggling. He refused to just take any 'ole job, but wanted that job that would jump start his career. In the mean time, he was struggling to make ends meet. He had this obsession that I somehow had connections to get him a Department of the Army Civilian job. I continuously had to inform him that I didn't. 'Twas the first time I ever felt like totally ignoring someone.

If he was struggling to make ends meet, getting a job in fast food wouldn't have made any difference.

To me the worst part of those kinds of jobs are the customers that think because you work there, you are beneath them. Tell somebody no because you can't do something (like give them a breakfast sandwich at 7pm or accept a coupon from a competitor), they would almost always go straight to about how much money they make, how much smarter they are than me, and I must only be working a job like this because I dropped out of school, do drugs, and got a girl pregnant.


Edited, Oct 19th 2013 7:21am by xantav
#55 Oct 19 2013 at 5:51 AM Rating: Default
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xantav wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
Most of the poor people I know (which is few since I don't associate with poor people) over value their self worth and are unwilling to work a job that is beneath them or for someone who doesn't treat them like having them work for them is a privilege.

My ex had the curious impression that it was somehow more degrading to work at Taco Bell than it is to have people repossess your car. Go figure.


That matches my #5. You might be surprised on how many people follow that logic. I knew a guy who was trying to break into the IT world, but was struggling. He refused to just take any 'ole job, but wanted that job that would jump start his career. In the mean time, he was struggling to make ends meet. He had this obsession that I somehow had connections to get him a Department of the Army Civilian job. I continuously had to inform him that I didn't. 'Twas the first time I ever felt like totally ignoring someone.

If he was struggling to make ends meet, getting a job in fast food wouldn't have made any difference.

Edited, Oct 19th 2013 7:21am by xantav


I disagree. My assumption is that he was riding off of his savings. It's only a matter of time before that depletes. From my experience, most people aren't looking to manage burger joints, so there isn't much competition.

Xantav wrote:
To me the worst part of those kinds of jobs are the customers that think because you work there, you are beneath them. Tell somebody no because you can't do something (like give them a breakfast sandwich at 7pm or accept a coupon from a competitor), they would almost always go straight to about how much money they make, how much smarter they are than me, and I must only be working a job like this because I dropped out of school, do drugs, and got a girl pregnant.


I did get this when I worked the front counter. I look and laugh... I'm thinking.. "dude I'm a math major".
#56 Oct 19 2013 at 5:55 AM Rating: Good
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Eventually people will realize that the work force is shifting from manufacturing focus to service focus. And that people working at places that serve you like hotels, restaurants, and retail, are not just unskilled kids trying to earn cash on the side. These are the jobs that are not being moved to where ever the cheap labor source is these days, Eastern Europe I think is the current one all the auto suppliers are targeting. Mexico and China are too expensive now.

Maybe...
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#57 Oct 19 2013 at 9:45 AM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
Eventually people will realize that the work force is shifting from manufacturing focus to service focus. And that people working at places that serve you like hotels, restaurants, and retail, are not just unskilled kids trying to earn cash on the side. These are the jobs that are not being moved to where ever the cheap labor source is these days, Eastern Europe I think is the current one all the auto suppliers are targeting. Mexico and China are too expensive now.

Maybe...


Eh not really. There is still a very strong focus on manufacturing. The problem however when you talk about jobs moving is automation. The number 1 killer of jobs in manufacturing (around the world not just north america) is automation. The jobs simply no longer exist. Not that they have been moved to another market sector, but have been eliminated from things we need done in society all together. The second largest impactor to manufacturing jobs is product quality. Our stuff simply is made better and lasts longer. Since less product needs to be replaced over the life time you need to make less, thus eliminating positions because you simply don't need to have all these extra people working when you aren't making that much. These jobs have also been temporarily eliminated, and I say temporarily because you could have a massive recall (Toyota almost 1 million vehicles) and need more people to help run production to fix the problems. But there are no new service industry jobs specifically created for these people who have "inlimbo" employment status.

Since jobs are being eliminated in manufacturing, and not just "lost" then yes people would look elsewhere in society for work, these are primarily in the service industry, although many go into primary industries as well. While the appearance may be that the work force is tending to service, it only does so because the jobs no longer exist in manufacturing new jobs haven't been blossoming out of the service industry either nor primary industry. Its also not because a few thousand relocated, but because tens of thousands simply no longer exists on task sheets of men.



Edited, Oct 19th 2013 11:47am by rdmcandie
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#58 Oct 20 2013 at 6:13 AM Rating: Decent
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But jobs are being automated because cheap labor exists elsewhere and places with high labor costs have to do it to keep those jobs. Automation isn't the job killer, it's the method to save what can still be saved. I'm a controls engineer, who integrates and programs these operator replacing robots. If it wasn't for automation, more jobs would be lost due to cheaper manufacturing costs. The problem isn't automation, automation is the answer to an existing problem. If you can really call it a problem. Companies want to make money and customers want to pay less, so companies have to find ways to save money. Cheap labor is an answer, and automation is the answer for places without cheap labor.

The Mexicans just throw another person at a line to increase production, with minimal costs. We have to spend 50,000 USD on a new robot, time and money engineering the chances, and optimize cycle times to make the one person more efficient. The quality difference doesn't come from who is doing the manufacturing, but from what the companies have done to decrease costs. There's cheap sh*t made all over the US, not just from these places with cheap labor.

But my point was, why is the button pusher in a manufacturing facility viewed as a more skilled job than the button pusher in a service industry? It's all how society views the importance of the job, and eventually they will (or maybe I should say "should") come to realize that those providing you with a service shouldn't be looked down upon as a lower class. As the average age of the service industry increases, it won't be a bunch of 35 year olds looking down on kids from the next generation, it will be a bunch of 35 year olds looking at their peers.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 8:16am by TirithRR
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#59 Oct 20 2013 at 7:33 AM Rating: Good
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The difference is that if something goes horribly wrong on an automated assembly line, the engineer pushing the button will probably have some inkling of what he should do. That kind of knowledge isn't something you can acquire in a week of training videos.

When I went to the sawmill, we got to see some pretty friggin awesome robots and big machines doing cool things. We learned that the two highest paid positions in the sawmill were this: the guy who manually rolled and rotated the bigger logs to get the most yield out of them (well, manually with joysticks from a booth ten feet up), and the guy who sharpened the teeth of the giant blade saws. Both positions were skilled in different ways. The senior blade sharpener dude had an apprentice.

Both were "merely pushing buttons" but both also required an immediate visual analysis of the stuff they were doing.
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#60 Oct 20 2013 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Eventually people will realize that the work force is shifting from manufacturing focus to service focus. And that people working at places that serve you like hotels, restaurants, and retail, are not just unskilled kids trying to earn cash on the side. These are the jobs that are not being moved to where ever the cheap labor source is these days, Eastern Europe I think is the current one all the auto suppliers are targeting. Mexico and China are too expensive now.

Maybe...


Eh not really. There is still a very strong focus on manufacturing. The problem however when you talk about jobs moving is automation. The number 1 killer of jobs in manufacturing (around the world not just north america) is automation. The jobs simply no longer exist. Not that they have been moved to another market sector, but have been eliminated from things we need done in society all together. The second largest impactor to manufacturing jobs is product quality. Our stuff simply is made better and lasts longer. Since less product needs to be replaced over the life time you need to make less, thus eliminating positions because you simply don't need to have all these extra people working when you aren't making that much. These jobs have also been temporarily eliminated, and I say temporarily because you could have a massive recall (Toyota almost 1 million vehicles) and need more people to help run production to fix the problems. But there are no new service industry jobs specifically created for these people who have "inlimbo" employment status.

Since jobs are being eliminated in manufacturing, and not just "lost" then yes people would look elsewhere in society for work, these are primarily in the service industry, although many go into primary industries as well. While the appearance may be that the work force is tending to service, it only does so because the jobs no longer exist in manufacturing new jobs haven't been blossoming out of the service industry either nor primary industry. Its also not because a few thousand relocated, but because tens of thousands simply no longer exists on task sheets of men.



Edited, Oct 19th 2013 11:47am by rdmcandie

Manufacturing should be maintained domestically for goods where it's efficient for us to produce them, but it needs a fundemental shift in paradigm. As we get more crowded, more advanced, manufacturing has become an ever larger public nuisance. More value has to be placed on how much over-all detriment an industry has on the environment and the societal environment (the human aspect of pollution). The costs of goods should go up accordingly, the price of goods becomes more dependent on it's whole life cycle and true cost of impact on natural resources, essentially making cheap throw-away items more expensive and so in less demand. Better stuff is made more efficiently, so there will still be need for peeps in manufacturing, but highly skilled peeps.

The service industry really needs stronger advocacy. The National Restaurant Association has been more or less guiding legislation with little pushback.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 3:39pm by Elinda
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#61 Oct 20 2013 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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Catwho wrote:
The difference is that if something goes horribly wrong on an automated assembly line, the engineer pushing the button will probably have some inkling of what he should do. That kind of knowledge isn't something you can acquire in a week of training videos.


Ever work in a large manufacturing facility? You think these people out on the floor pushing buttons are "engineers"? These are people that can barely do high school math. This is work that requires only a couple hours of "training" and then throw the person on the floor and tell them to follow the written instructions at the job, sometimes a senior operator that has ran the machine before will work with them for a couple shifts, but rarely. From what I've seen on the shop floor, your average cashier at Wal-mart or Burger King gets just as much training as these button pushers.

The engineers developing the machines are not the button pushers. The machines, especially in an automated process, are developed so that any idiot that walks in off the street can operate it with minimal skills or training.

Catwho wrote:
When I went to the sawmill, we got to see some pretty friggin awesome robots and big machines doing cool things. We learned that the two highest paid positions in the sawmill were this: the guy who manually rolled and rotated the bigger logs to get the most yield out of them (well, manually with joysticks from a booth ten feet up), and the guy who sharpened the teeth of the giant blade saws. Both positions were skilled in different ways. The senior blade sharpener dude had an apprentice.

Both were "merely pushing buttons" but both also required an immediate visual analysis of the stuff they were doing.


Those were not merely button pushers. You can look at my job as a controls engineer and say I'm merely pushing buttons since that is what you may see me doing most of the time. But I also have a 4 year degree in Electrical Engineering, 8 years experience with these control systems, and an innate ability to understand machine logic and figure out how to make the machine do exactly what I want it to do quickly and efficiently.

There are 400 other employees whose only job is to put a piece of metal into a machine and press the start button, then remove that piece of metal from the machine and put it into a box. If anything goes wrong with their machine they call a person from the maintenance or electrical crews over to take a look at it. If those crews can't figure it out they call the engineers.
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#62 Oct 20 2013 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Since we are talking helljobs... I was once fired for calling some young jackass useless.

I was working at a Tim Horton's, and our really awesome supervisor, who was a family friend of the owners, got sick of working there. They really abused their family ties to him to get him working late and often, so finally he got fed up and left. They promoted the biggest slacker in the store, again because they knew his family. After a week of closing with him, just the two of us, I got fed up. He would lay in the dumbwaiter and text instead of helping to close, and then whine that we were late to close every night. I said he was a ******* joke, utterly ******* useless, and not any form of a supervisor. He went and cried to the owners, and I lost my job.

Two weeks later they sacked him.

I met him a couple years later, I was working at a halfway decent job, but he was working as a security guard. One that was known as a low paying one, normally for retired soldiers and what not. He admitted he was a complete *** when he was young, mentioned that he was paying for it now. No idea what that meant, but it did make me chuckle.
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#63 Oct 20 2013 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
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There are 400 other employees whose only job is to put a piece of metal into a machine and press the start button, then remove that piece of metal from the machine and put it into a box. If anything goes wrong with their machine they call a person from the maintenance or electrical crews over to take a look at it. If those crews can't figure it out they call the engineers.


Then the engineer reads the manual and calls the OEM. Try the veal.
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#64 Oct 20 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

There are 400 other employees whose only job is to put a piece of metal into a machine and press the start button, then remove that piece of metal from the machine and put it into a box. If anything goes wrong with their machine they call a person from the maintenance or electrical crews over to take a look at it. If those crews can't figure it out they call the engineers.


Then the engineer reads the manual and calls the OEM. Try the veal.


Well, this engineer wrote the manual and is the OEM. So, ya.
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#65 Oct 20 2013 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:

There are 400 other employees whose only job is to put a piece of metal into a machine and press the start button, then remove that piece of metal from the machine and put it into a box. If anything goes wrong with their machine they call a person from the maintenance or electrical crews over to take a look at it. If those crews can't figure it out they call the engineers.


Then the engineer reads the manual and calls the OEM. Try the veal.


Quote:
the engineer reads the manual


That's the part that's funniest.
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#66 Oct 20 2013 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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TirithRR wrote:
But jobs are being automated because cheap labor exists elsewhere and places with high labor costs have to do it to keep those jobs. Automation isn't the job killer, it's the method to save what can still be saved. I'm a controls engineer, who integrates and programs these operator replacing robots. If it wasn't for automation, more jobs would be lost due to cheaper manufacturing costs. The problem isn't automation, automation is the answer to an existing problem. If you can really call it a problem. Companies want to make money and customers want to pay less, so companies have to find ways to save money. Cheap labor is an answer, and automation is the answer for places without cheap labor.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 8:16am by TirithRR


No, automation kills jobs. Period. In no way anywhere in the world does automation not remove jobs. I understand what you are saying by making our facilities more productive we would save jobs. But as a control technician as well, I have watched automation remove more jobs than relocation. Now why do I say that despite jobs moving on mass out of Canada and the US in manufacturing. When they come back out automation still limits the jobs.

When a line moves from the US (or Canada) to Mexico the automation goes with it. My supervisor set up the line in Mexico for the EXACT same process as we ran here. It requires the same number of people, and produces the same number of frames. We lost 60 jobs to that line. When and if it comes back the Maximum amount of jobs we can expect is 60, because the process was designed for 20 people to run over 3 rotating shifts. In 1998 that exact same process had 100 people over 3 shifts, 40 jobs ELIMINATEDbecause we had robots come in instead of people. This exact line was recreated in Mexico, making the EXACT same product. If those jobs ever come back it will be the same 60 jobs coming back unless its been further automated since its left, requiring less people.

Automation does not save jobs. It removes jobs entirely from the industry. All over the world. A job done by a robot is a job that will never be done by a human in any part of the world ever again.

Why....because it costs less to make a robot do it. in any nation on this entire planet. Jobs we eliminate by designing automation are jobs that are no longer needed...period. Automation does not save jobs, it didn't save jobs in Canada/US before they moved out, it didn't save jobs in new plants in cheap locations, and it won't magically add jobs if/when they return to NA. Using Robots is done to eliminate humans. Period.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 8:19pm by rdmcandie
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#67 Oct 20 2013 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
Eventually people will realize that the work force is shifting from manufacturing focus to service focus. And that people working at places that serve you like hotels, restaurants, and retail, are not just unskilled kids trying to earn cash on the side. These are the jobs that are not being moved to where ever the cheap labor source is these days, Eastern Europe I think is the current one all the auto suppliers are targeting. Mexico and China are too expensive now.

Maybe...


Eh not really. There is still a very strong focus on manufacturing. The problem however when you talk about jobs moving is automation. The number 1 killer of jobs in manufacturing (around the world not just north america) is automation. The jobs simply no longer exist. Not that they have been moved to another market sector, but have been eliminated from things we need done in society all together. The second largest impactor to manufacturing jobs is product quality. Our stuff simply is made better and lasts longer. Since less product needs to be replaced over the life time you need to make less, thus eliminating positions because you simply don't need to have all these extra people working when you aren't making that much. These jobs have also been temporarily eliminated, and I say temporarily because you could have a massive recall (Toyota almost 1 million vehicles) and need more people to help run production to fix the problems. But there are no new service industry jobs specifically created for these people who have "inlimbo" employment status.

Since jobs are being eliminated in manufacturing, and not just "lost" then yes people would look elsewhere in society for work, these are primarily in the service industry, although many go into primary industries as well. While the appearance may be that the work force is tending to service, it only does so because the jobs no longer exist in manufacturing new jobs haven't been blossoming out of the service industry either nor primary industry. Its also not because a few thousand relocated, but because tens of thousands simply no longer exists on task sheets of men.



Edited, Oct 19th 2013 11:47am by rdmcandie

Manufacturing should be maintained domestically for goods where it's efficient for us to produce them, but it needs a fundemental shift in paradigm. As we get more crowded, more advanced, manufacturing has become an ever larger public nuisance. More value has to be placed on how much over-all detriment an industry has on the environment and the societal environment (the human aspect of pollution). The costs of goods should go up accordingly, the price of goods becomes more dependent on it's whole life cycle and true cost of impact on natural resources, essentially making cheap throw-away items more expensive and so in less demand. Better stuff is made more efficiently, so there will still be need for peeps in manufacturing, but highly skilled peeps.

The service industry really needs stronger advocacy. The National Restaurant Association has been more or less guiding legislation with little pushback.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 3:39pm by Elinda



I agree we should be working more to make a manufacturing foundation. Unfortunately the very nature of our society dictates the continual deterioration of manufacturing jobs. Eventually our entire manufacturing process will be automated, and those jobs will never be replaced in our society, As we move forward more and more stuff will become automated. The service sector has seen lots of job loss as computer manage more and more operations, Probably the most notable today being product ordering. Computers track store and shelf stock and determine whether the store needs more or not. 10 years ago people did this. (I know because this was my first job out of highschool and I was replaced by the computer doing it for me in 2004)

All industry is moving towards automation, many are moving faster and faster, in 10 years we won't need bank tellers, everything can be done via computer, already we are working withough cashiers in many service industry with Uscan stations. The more we automate the less jobs exist. So while I agree that we need to work to keep manufacturing here, ultimately it is redundant because our eventuality is to live in a mostly automated society, and if it is mostly automated that means we humans will be mostly out of work.

But that doesn't matter either because in the next couple decades nations will realize it is not the value of money but the value of resources, and economies will flip not to who works the most and builds the most, but to who can supply the most product to the machines to make us sh*t that costs nothing.

The future dictates humans don't work, and that we use our technology to provide for everyone. Regardless of what the Gbaji crowd thinks personal wealth and influence will be largely dead traits in humanity by 2030. Should be a fun time, we will likely be the first automated generation(s), where we can go get what we want whenever we want it and have to work minimal if any hours "for the man".

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 8:17pm by rdmcandie

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 8:21pm by rdmcandie
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#68 Oct 20 2013 at 8:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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In Australia if the unemployment rate falls below 5% the government takes steps to adjust unemployment back upwards. Below 5% workers gain too much bargaining power for wages and conditions against workers. And the "unemployable" remain unwanted in the workforce.

Not a conspiracy theory, it is discussed openly in the papers. If you didn't catch that, that means politicians here want to keep at least 5% of working-fit adults on Unemployment benefits, which are below the poverty line.

Edited, Oct 20th 2013 10:20pm by Aripyanfar
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#69 Oct 20 2013 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
The second largest impactor to manufacturing jobs is product quality. Our stuff simply is made better and lasts longer.

As modern a thought as your Luddism.
#70 Oct 21 2013 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
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6, 3, and maybe a hint of 4 will likely keep me from ever getting a job.

I think it's safe to say bad luck is the biggest reason.
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#71 Oct 21 2013 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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TirithRR wrote:
There are 400 other employees whose only job is to put a piece of metal into a machine and press the start button, then remove that piece of metal from the machine and put it into a box. If anything goes wrong with their machine they call a person from the maintenance or electrical crews over to take a look at it. If those crews can't figure it out they call the engineers.
Going into the family business one summer when we were visiting. I ask where's great-grandma? And get told she's out in the shop pressing brackets. I head out back around a corner of some boxes and there's the she is, this little 92 year-old lady standing next to the press.

Slips a cut piece of metal into the slot, stomps the floor petal, and the weight drops.

"Ka-thwam!"

It's raises up, and she grabs the bracket and tosses it into a box, and then the next piece goes in.

"Ka-thwam!"

Who needs retirement? Smiley: rolleyes
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#72 Oct 21 2013 at 10:39 AM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
There are 400 other employees whose only job is to put a piece of metal into a machine and press the start button, then remove that piece of metal from the machine and put it into a box. If anything goes wrong with their machine they call a person from the maintenance or electrical crews over to take a look at it. If those crews can't figure it out they call the engineers.
Going into the family business one summer when we were visiting. I ask where's great-grandma? And get told she's out in the shop pressing brackets. I head out back around a corner of some boxes and there's the she is, this little 92 year-old lady standing next to the press.

Slips a cut piece of metal into the slot, stomps the floor petal, and the weight drops.

"Ka-thwam!"

It's raises up, and she grabs the bracket and tosses it into a box, and then the next piece goes in.

"Ka-thwam!"

Who needs retirement? Smiley: rolleyes

She is an essential worker!
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#73 Oct 21 2013 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
She is an essential worker!
Much more so than the guy who was supposed to be working, but didn't bother to show up that day, so the 92-year-old wife of the company owner stepped up and did his job for him. Smiley: lol
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#74 Oct 21 2013 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. Short birth of a child, having a limb removed or flat out dieing, no reason would make you feel any better then crap for not showing up and having the great grandmother doing your job(most likely better then the guy that didn't show up lol).
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#75 Oct 21 2013 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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No idea, only that he was one of those people that was frequently absent and always seemed to have an excuse. Smiley: rolleyes IIRC, they fairly frequently hired a few of these young friend-of-the-family types who would work for a little while, like a summer, or when just out of school or something, and eventually move on to something else. You can imagine they didn't always have the best work ethic.

Kids these days. Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Oct 21st 2013 10:37am by someproteinguy
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#76 Oct 21 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah guess so, still i would feel like crap if a 92 year old was doing my job.
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