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#27 Oct 07 2013 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly @#%^ing ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.


I agree. The side that says "we'll spend $1T more money than we're taking in every single year for four years and then refuse to meet with the other side to discuss that fact despite that our job requires us to do this" is being pretty ridiculous.
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#28 Oct 07 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Default
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gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly @#%^ing ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.


I agree. The side that says "we'll spend $1T more money than we're taking in every single year for four years and then refuse to meet with the other side to discuss that fact despite that our job requires us to do this" is being pretty ridiculous.


Which has absolutely nothing to do with the money already spent. Two separate issues. You can pass a clean CR and address the ACA spending afterwards. Given the fact that the clean CR was never even up for a vote by Congress, I would say is pretty ridiculous.
#29 Oct 07 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.

But it only takes one person to give the lamest false equivalence argument in the book.

Anyway, the GOP can't even negotiate with itself:
National Review wrote:
House Republican leaders met today at the Capitol, but they made little progress toward solving the fiscal crisis, or calming the GOP’s growing tensions. They remain undecided on the contours of a potential deal, and on how to sell one, especially to the conference’s bloc of skeptical conservatives. “It’s the House of indecision,” says a weary Republican aide familiar with the talks. “We don’t have the votes for a big deal, small deal, or short-term deal.”

Representative Pete Sessions of Texas, chairman of the Rules Committee, tells us Speaker John Boehner doesn’t yet have his debt-ceiling proposal finalized. For now, no legislation is headed toward his committee, and it’s all about messaging. “Negatory,” he replies, when asked whether the GOP’s next move has been set. “We’re going to keep with our great, positive attitude and tell the president, ‘you’ve got to sit down and negotiate.’”

Obviously the Democrats' fault that they're not dealing with the party that doesn't even know what in the fuck it wants.

Edited, Oct 7th 2013 5:42pm by Jophiel
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#30 Oct 07 2013 at 6:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It takes two sides to disagree.
One side being utterly @#%^ing ridiculous makes it easy to disagree though.


I agree. The side that says "we'll spend $1T more money than we're taking in every single year for four years and then refuse to meet with the other side to discuss that fact despite that our job requires us to do this" is being pretty ridiculous.
This message didn't get out nearly enough. The Democrats aren't going to budge on Obamacare, that much was obvious from the beginning, from before the whole thing started. Why it was even brought up initially baffles me somewhat (besides the whole loud nutjobs on the far right saying they'd bring it up thing, but they baffle me too). But Obamacare is a small part of the government. If it's really out of control spending then there should be plenty of other places to suggest cuts. "Fine you can keep Obamacare but we need to do something about this spending..." that sounds a bit more sane, well to me at least.

But maybe there's a reason I'm not in politics... Smiley: rolleyes
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#31 Oct 08 2013 at 3:11 AM Rating: Decent
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But Obamacare is a small part of the government. If it's really out of control spending then there should be plenty of other places to suggest cuts. "Fine you can keep Obamacare but we need to do something about this spending..." that sounds a bit more sane, well to me at least.


Exactly! This isn't about budgeting, but preventing President Obama (to be fair, any Democrat) from creating a legacy. People are fickle and simple minded, they will support whatever is hot at the moment. See President Bush/911/Iraq war.
#32 Oct 08 2013 at 6:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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To an extent it has to be about the ACA because many of these House Republicans swore to their voters that they were going to stop the ACA from socializing America and eating their babies. There really isn't another platform to "win" on. No one will be placated by "Well, Obamacare is still all systems go but, check it out, we got a 2% reduction in NOAA funding."

Rep. Scott Garrett (R-NJ) via National Review wrote:
They may try to throw the kitchen sink at the debt limit, but I don't think our conference will be amenable for settling for a collection of things after we've fought so hard. If it doesn't have a full delay or defund of Obamacare, I know I and many others will not be able to support whatever the leadership proposes. If it's just a repeal of the medical-device tax, or chained CPI, that won't be enough.
(bolding mine)

Edited, Oct 8th 2013 7:55am by Jophiel
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#33 Oct 08 2013 at 7:20 AM Rating: Good
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It's not about Obamacare, Joph. Why do you keep bringing it up?
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#34 Oct 08 2013 at 7:24 AM Rating: Decent
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If it came down to caving in on the ACA demands of the tea partiers or defaulting on our debt, which would be the worse evil?

If Obama were to concede (he has a habit of it) would Reid even support it?



Edited, Oct 8th 2013 3:24pm by Elinda
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#35 Oct 08 2013 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
If it came down to caving in on the ACA demands of the tea partiers or defaulting on our debt, which would be the worse evil?

The former long term, the latter short term.

Caving on the ACA would:
(a) give the minority party free reign to hold the government hostage to whatever demands they have
(b) create an incentive to only ever pass stopgap increases so the debt ceiling is constantly a factor in order to capitalize on (a)
(c) effectively kill health care reform in the US for a generation.

Quote:
If Obama were to concede (he has a habit of it) would Reid even support it?

Concede to what? Repealing the ACA? Not going to happen.
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#36 Oct 08 2013 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Good news, everyone! The GOP is proposing to create a supercommittee!
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#37 Oct 08 2013 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Good news, everyone! The GOP is proposing to create a supercommittee!
What's that (supposed to) do?
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#38 Oct 08 2013 at 9:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Based on the success rate of previous supercommittees, nothing.
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#39 Oct 08 2013 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Heh, ok. And in theory?
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#40 Oct 08 2013 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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They'll figure out exactly what their ransom note should say for returning our government to us. In theory.

They want the ACA to fail so bad, but Obama called their bluff, so now they're stuck trying to figure out what else they can get out of it.

In classic group think fashion, they've decided to form a committee.

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#41 Oct 08 2013 at 10:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Heh, ok. And in theory?

At the last major budget impasse, Congress decided on a short term continued spending bill coupled with a "supercommittee". Said committee was called that because it included members from both parties of both chambers of Congress. So both Democratic & GOP House and Senate members. The idea was that they would have until a deadline to come up with a long term plan for spending and debt. If they failed, there would be a "sequester" -- fairly nondiscriminatory cuts across domestic discretionary and military spending. The idea was that the GOP would find the military cuts and the Democrats would find the domestic cuts abhorrent enough to force some sort of resolution. Entitlement spending was left out of the agreement.

Anyway, as you may have heard, the supercommittee failed spectacularly and the sequester cuts went into place instead. Many of the same voices who are cheering the shutdown also helped steer and championed forcing the sequester under the premise that across the board cuts were a great thing.

That alone probably makes this supercommittee idea a nonstarter. If you're dealing with people who are excited to burn the house down, why are you going to enter a good faith agreement with them? All they need to do is torpedo the committee, force another shutdown/default and then they say the blame has to be shared with the Democrats because they were on the committee as well.
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#42 Oct 08 2013 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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So they'll have meetings for a week before coming out and saying they have no idea?
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#43 Oct 08 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I declare reverse-sequester: If this supercommittee fails, we get to raise taxes 25% across the board and declare war on two nations of the GOP's choosing.
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#44 Oct 08 2013 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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No, they'll have meetings for a week, create a ~100-page document full of recommendations that will never pass the senate, but will be billed as a compromise plan and used as political leverage to try to elicit base donations and force concessions during default negotiations. They will attach one of the next RNC candidate's name onto the bill to get exposure. I'm guessing it will be called the notryan plan or something.

The dems will cave and take the least offensive thin edge of the wedge, and we'll be back here next year at about this time. Maybe they will name a bridge or something too.
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#45 Oct 08 2013 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I declare reverse-sequester: If this supercommittee fails, we get to raise taxes 25% across the board and declare war on two nations of the GOP's choosing.


Looks like we'll be annexing Canada and Poland.
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#46 Oct 08 2013 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I declare reverse-sequester: If this supercommittee fails, we get to raise taxes 25% across the board and declare war on two nations of the GOP's choosing.


Looks like we'll be annexing Canada and Poland.
One of those has to be France, because freedom fries.
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#47 Oct 08 2013 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So they'll have meetings for a week before coming out and saying they have no idea?
No no, they'll make a deal, probably fairly quickly. There'll just be no reason to tell anyone else about it anytime soon. Just stick it in the back pocket until the final hour and then bring it to the floor knowing it'll pass. In the meantime let fear do it's part to help you get your message out. Primetime viewers are win. Smiley: rolleyes
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#48 Oct 08 2013 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lulz...

The Onion reports....
Quote:
20 members of the Republican’s Tea Party faction announced this morning they would be willing to support a clean budget resolution bill in exchange for the president’s firstborn daughter, Malia Obama.
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#49 Oct 08 2013 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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The Pres and the Speaker had a phone call. Obama is making some sort of statement right now. You can watch it at the white house site or on youtube.
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#50 Oct 08 2013 at 12:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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So basically they've still gotten nowhere?
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#51 Oct 08 2013 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Obama to Boehner: "Prove it"

- in response to Boehner saying he won't bring the clean CR to the floor because it doesn't have the votes to pass.
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