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#302 Jul 18 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
And the one above that demanded "proof". Since that was the original question you asked, and to which you have repeatedly demanded an answer, that's the reason I haven't answered it.


Cut the crap. I re-asked the question several times in which you QUOTED. Your responses quoted my clarified questions, not the original. Furthermore, you went so far to argue the definition of "speculation", based on my response of quoting you, which contradicted your claim. So, either you didn't read the own text that you responded to and/or you simply ignored it.

Gbaji wrote:
Now if you want facts, which constitute "evidence" of my speculation, how about the following. Let's remember that we're assessing the relative likelihood that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because he thought Zimmerman was a killer/stalker/whatever, or Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because he thought Zimmerman was a law abiding/concerned/whatever citizen who was calling the cops on him:


Let me stop you here before you go too far down the rabbit hole. I'm not concerned on the reason why Martin was scared. Martin being scared that Zimmerman was a cop vs a killer is irrelevant. I'm asking you to provide facts that he was going to support a crime. Being afraid of the police doesn't prove guilt in a future crime. You said yourself that black teens are taught to fear the law and that his own fear killed him. That only supports the claim that he ran out of fear.

Gbaji wrote:
I'm still unsure why you believe this is a requirement for anything though.

You know more about the law than I do, so obviously you know that you can't just make stuff up about a person to suit your argument. As mentioned, I could say that Martin was about to donate his kidney to his dying friend in the hospital or start his first day working in a soup kitchen. Without any facts to back that up, it's meaningless.

Gbaji wrote:
I have never made this speculation.

Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal, and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


If you misspoke, just man up and say it. You said this KNOWING that Martin only had a bag of skittles. With that knowledge, it is only reasonable that Martin ran out of fear, regardless if he thought Zimmerman was a killer or a cop. I'm not going to get side tracked with your other claims.

So, let me rephrase it again for you. What facts do you have to support your speculation that he was "looking for something to vandalize/steal" and "Not someone innocently walking home from the store"?

If your answer is that he ran, then your facts need to support that Martin ran to prevent being arrested/detained/recognized for "looking for something to vandalize/steal" and "Not someone innocently walking home from the store".
#303 Jul 18 2013 at 4:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Screenshot
.


Interesting that both of those cops are left handed and both are holding the dog leashes with their left hands. Not saying that's wrong, just another example of left handed folks being at a disadvantage living in a right handed world. Oh wait! Was there something else I was supposed to be looking at?
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#304 Jul 18 2013 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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I suspect stupidmonkey works for Coca-cola and it's all a marketing ploy.

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#305 Jul 18 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I suspect stupidmonkey works for Coca-cola and it's all a marketing ploy.

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I thought stupidmonkey was trying to take over the world? Although Coca Cola i the closest thing to world domination that we have.
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#306 Jul 18 2013 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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I thought that was the *** agenda? Smiley: dubious

I really need to start reading those memos...
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#307 Jul 18 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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#308 Jul 18 2013 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, but Coke will turn you ***.

Nvm, nothing to see here, move along, move along.
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#309 Jul 18 2013 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Um... Ok. Let's try this... again.

Almalieque wrote:
Let me stop you here before you go too far down the rabbit hole. I'm not concerned on the reason why Martin was scared. Martin being scared that Zimmerman was a cop vs a killer is irrelevant.


No. It's not irrelevant. It's the entire point I was making. My speculation is that Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman because he thought he was a criminal, but because he thought Zimmerman was reporting him to the police (or was the police).

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I'm asking you to provide facts that he was going to support a crime.


Assuming you meant "commit", I never once said this. How many times do I have to repeat this statement?

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Being afraid of the police doesn't prove guilt in a future crime. You said yourself that black teens are taught to fear the law and that his own fear killed him. That only supports the claim that he ran out of fear.


But was he afraid of Zimmerman because he thought he was a criminal, or because he represented the law in some way? That's significant, isn't it?


Quote:
Gbaji wrote:
I have never made this speculation.

Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal, and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


If you misspoke, just man up and say it.


I didn't misspeak. Happy? I don't know why Martin was doing what he was doing. But whatever he was doing looked suspicious enough to Zimmerman for him to call the police, and apparently Martin thought they were suspicious enough to run from Zimmerman once he realized he (Zimmerman) had been watching him while he was doing it. Whether he was actually going to commit a crime doesn't matter. That it appears that both men thought what Martin was doing would look suspicious is. Else, why did he run?

Quote:
You said this KNOWING that Martin only had a bag of skittles. With that knowledge, it is only reasonable that Martin ran out of fear, regardless if he thought Zimmerman was a killer or a cop. I'm not going to get side tracked with your other claims.


What other claims? That was the sole point I was making. WTF?

Quote:
So, let me rephrase it again for you. What facts do you have to support your speculation that he was "looking for something to vandalize/steal" and "Not someone innocently walking home from the store"?


I'm not arguing that he was looking for something to vandalize/steal. I said that his actions looked suspicious like someone who "perhaps" was doing that (but it could have been anything). You're missing the forest for the trees. My argument isn't about exactly what Martin was doing, but that whatever he was doing looked suspicious to Zimmerman and that Martin ran because he realized that what he was doing looked suspicious and *not* because he thought Zimmerman was some kind of stalker.

Quote:
If your answer is that he ran, then your facts need to support that Martin ran to prevent being arrested/detained/recognized for "looking for something to vandalize/steal" and "Not someone innocently walking home from the store".


No. My facts only need to show that his reason for running was more likely to have been from a fear of getting in trouble with the law than fear of a killer/stalker. You know, like I've said repeatedly. You're ignoring my actual argument and focusing on an example I gave in a list of things he *could* have been doing. That's nuts.


I have provided a list of facts that support my speculation that Martin ran because he thought Zimmerman was calling the cops on him and not because he thought Zimmerman was some kind of stalker/killer/whatever. That's the point I'm arguing. You're free to argue on your own about whether anyone can prove that Martin was about to steal or vandalize something, but that's not what I was saying at all. Again, that's what the word "perhaps" means.



The larger point is that there's been this huge narrative claiming that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because Zimmerman was following him. But, as I've pointed out (and as the recoding of Zimmerman's call to police clearly shows), Martin ran from Zimmerman before he was followed by him. Martin didn't even realize that Zimmerman was there until he was right up near his vehicle. Martin ran almost immediately after spotting Zimmerman. Thus, he had some other reason for running.

What do you think that reason was? He just has an irrational fear of people sitting in their cars talking on their cell phones? Because up until the moment Martin ran, that's all he knew about Zimmerman. Clearly, there must have been some reason he'd specifically be afraid of a person sitting in a car on that street at that particular time talking on his cell phone. And IMO the most likely reason is that he thought Zimmerman was calling the cops on him. Assuming Martin doesn't normally just flee from people sitting in cars talking on the phone, it had to have been something Martin was doing himself that prompted him to be concerned that someone who could have seen him for the previous couple minutes was sitting there talking on a phone.

What could that have been?

Edited, Jul 18th 2013 4:31pm by gbaji
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#310 Jul 18 2013 at 5:37 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
I suspect stupidmonkey works for Coca-cola and it's all a marketing ploy.

Smiley: tinfoilhat
I thought stupidmonkey was trying to take over the world? Although Coca Cola i the closest thing to world domination that we have.


I actually took over the world in a peaceful negotiation, the Illuminati handed over the keys, but we kept the same management team.
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#311 Jul 18 2013 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Oh wait! Was there something else I was supposed to be looking at?
The dog licking dude's nuts. I bet he stashed peanut butter down there.
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#312 Jul 18 2013 at 9:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
I'm not arguing that he was looking for something to vandalize/steal. I said that his actions looked suspicious like someone who "perhaps" was doing that (but it could have been anything).


So, you're saying that there are no facts, evidence and/or proof to support any claim that Martin was about to commit a crime?
#313 Jul 18 2013 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys ******* lied to me.
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#314 Jul 19 2013 at 1:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't misspeak. Happy? I don't know why Martin was doing what he was doing. But whatever he was doing looked suspicious enough to Zimmerman for him to call the police, and apparently Martin thought they were suspicious enough to run from Zimmerman once he realized he (Zimmerman) had been watching him while he was doing it. Whether he was actually going to commit a crime doesn't matter. That it appears that both men thought what Martin was doing would look suspicious is. Else, why did he run?


I don't recall what Martin was doing that Zimmerman found suspicious. I recall Zimmerman saying he thought Martin was "on drugs". Besides walking & talking on his cellphone while being a black teen in a hoodie, I don't think Zimmerman ever specified what else Martin was doing that was "suspicious". Martin could have ran because he was scared of Zimmerman stalking him in his car and on foot or for another reason. That "other" reason, if it was a reason at all, will never be known as Martin is dead.

Quote:
My facts only need to show that his reason for running was more likely to have been from a fear of getting in trouble with the law than fear of a killer/stalker.


Unconvincing speculation, but certainly possible. Consult your Ouji board & ask Martin directly?

Quote:
The larger point is that there's been this huge narrative claiming that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because Zimmerman was following him. But, as I've pointed out (and as the recoding of Zimmerman's call to police clearly shows), Martin ran from Zimmerman before he was followed by him. Martin didn't even realize that Zimmerman was there until he was right up near his vehicle. Martin ran almost immediately after spotting Zimmerman. Thus, he had some other reason for running.


Cite?
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#315 Jul 19 2013 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I actually took over the world in a peaceful negotiation,
Well, I didn't vote for you.
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#316 Jul 19 2013 at 8:10 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I actually took over the world in a peaceful negotiation,
Well, I didn't vote for you.

Negotiations don't call for a vote.

In the end we're all just stupid monkeys.
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#317 Jul 19 2013 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Well, supposing that black kids are taught to fear authority figures, by the authority figures themselves, does seem to be quite a problem. Zimm assuming that Tray was criminalizin' causes just as much trouble as Tray assuming that Zimm assumes that he's criminalizin'.


It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?
Um excuse me, if it were me i'd be running and hiding too. Do we not teach our children NOT to talk to strangers - to get away from them, to assume they mean us harm?

Your blind bias is upsetting if I have to imagine others in this world are just as handicapped.



Edited, Jul 19th 2013 4:14pm by Elinda
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#318 Jul 19 2013 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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You guys @#%^ing lied to me.
Hey now, I said it was like two fat chicks mud wrestling.

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#319 Jul 19 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I actually took over the world in a peaceful negotiation,
Well, I didn't vote for you.
Negotiations don't call for a vote.
Well, how'd he become king, then?
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#320 Jul 19 2013 at 9:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
I actually took over the world in a peaceful negotiation,
Well, I didn't vote for you.
Negotiations don't call for a vote.
Well, how'd he become king, then?


He hooked up with some swimmer chick with a sword collection.
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#321 Jul 19 2013 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
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After much thought, I've come to the conclusion that strange women lying in ponds distributing swords can't be a much worse basis for government than what we're currently using.
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#322 Jul 19 2013 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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#323 Jul 19 2013 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wait...

so we're not collecting automatons then?

**** dyslexia. Smiley: bah
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#324odinomega, Posted: Jul 19 2013 at 3:17 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) omegavegeta is racist
#325 Jul 19 2013 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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You can always collect automatons if you want to Protein.
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#326 Jul 19 2013 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe I will Aethien, maybe I will...

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