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#602 Aug 09 2013 at 7:25 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Innocent until proven guilty and all that.
Yeah, but that's one of those statements that sounds good on paper but is never really acted upon. Kind of like "all men are created equal." If anyone really believed it, why would everyone be either be tossed in a cage until proven innocent, or have to pay a substantial fee in order to walk around?
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#603 Aug 09 2013 at 3:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Kastigir wrote:
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I'm not questioning Zimmerman's suspicion, but your statement that Martin *perhaps/might* was "looking for something to vandalize/steal" and "Not someone innocently walking home from the store" What are your facts to substantiate that claim?

By the same token, what are your FACTS to substantiate that he wasn't looking for something to vandalize/steal?


1. Innocent till proven guilty.
2. There were no tools for suggestive breaking and entering and/or vandalizing, but a bag of skittles
3. He was on the phone with his "girlfriend", which Zimmerman did NOT know, which would make Martin look suspicious as Zimmerman described.

As I said earlier, if he had a crowbar, a gun and some paint, then you would have a point. Everyone would be asking "why did he have those things?". Likewise logic applies to a cell phone and a bag of skittles. I'm not arguing that Martin is innocent of all crimes, I'm simply arguing against this notion that he was "up to no good" at that moment, because there are no facts suggesting that.
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#604 Aug 13 2013 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Wait. So me asking why Martin ran from Zimmerman, which is key to understanding what kind of threat he thought Zimmerman was, and thus key to weighing the respective actions of the two involved is a "distraction"?


Yes, because the first action was not Martin running.


From Martin's perspective (which is the only one that matters if we're asking why he did that), it was the first action. He walked down the street. He saw a person sitting in a car. As he got closer he realized that the person in the car was looking at him and talking on a cell phone. Then Martin ran away from the person in the car. The question is: Why did he run?

Quote:
So, you can't accurately discuss WHY Martin ran unless you discuss everything leading up to that point.


But that's all that happened up to that point. This is what I've been trying to get you to understand all along. What Zimmerman thought about Martin was irrelevant to Martin's decision to run from Zimmerman. All that matters is what Martin was thinking at that point. And up to that point, all we know happened was that he walked by a car with a guy sitting in it, looking at him, and talking on his cell phone.

Assuming we all agree that Martin likely does not normally flee from every person sitting in a car talking on their cell phone that he sees, then there must have been some other reason why he did run in this particular case. So what about this situation was special that made him feel he needed to run? Many have argued that Martin ran because he believed that Zimmerman represented some kind of criminal threat. He thought he was a rapist, or robber, or serial killer or something. But I have a problem with that because we have a recording of the entire period of time during which Martin was at first unaware of Zimmerman, then became aware of him, and then ran from him. Yet there's nothing on the audio to indicate that Zimmerman did or said anything which would make a reasonable person come to any of the above conclusions about Zimmerman representing a criminal threat to Martin.


I have therefore proposed the theory that Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman because he thought he represented a criminal threat, but because he represented a lawful one. If Martin was aware that his behavior while walking down the road could be perceived as suspicious, it's entirely reasonable for him to conclude that the guy looking at him and talking on his cell phone might be calling the cops. And that might be why he ran away. At least, that's my theory. If you have one you think is better, then by all means present it.

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The whole point of the discussion was to discuss if the shooting was justified. You argued that the shooting was justified, because ~> it was self defense because ~>Zimmerman was the victim ~> because Martin was not as innocent as the media is portraying him because ~> he ran from a parked car because ~> he thought Zimmerman was an extension of the law and was afraid of getting caught because ~> he was up to no good.


Wrong. I never said it was self defense because Martin was not as innocent as the media portrayed him. I said it was self defense because at the time he fired his weapon, he was flat on his back with Martin on top of him, pinning him down and punching him in the face. That's what makes it self defense.

The question of why Martin ran, and speculation about what he was doing when walking down that street that night are purely side issues. I only raise them in response to other people insisting that Martin did nothing at all to justify Zimmerman's actions. Specifically, that Zimmerman should not have gotten out of his car. I'm also trying to counter the oft-repeated claim that Zimmerman chased Martin in his car, or that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because Zimmerman was chasing him.

The significance of Martin's decision to run is that it happened before Zimmerman had done anything overtly aggressive towards Martin at all. Martin wasn't running from someone who was chasing him. He ran from a guy in a parked car. If we're to place any weight at all on what was going through the two men's heads that night, this is kind of a big question, right?

Quote:
So, the source of your argument was that Martin was up to no good, so I questioned it first.


Sigh. I've said this like 8 times now, but I'll repeat it again:

No part of any argument I've made rests on the assumption that Martin was up to no good. Period. End of story. WTF?

Quote:
Gbaji wrote:

Now, can you get on to telling me why you think Martin decided to run from Zimmerman?

As, I've said SEVERAL times, Martin ran because he was scared of Zimmerman. He became suspicious of him as either a cop, "an extension of the police", and/or a thug. He had an irrational fear and ran.


Which do you think it was though? Was he scared because he thought Zimmerman was a cop (or was calling the cops)? Or do you think he was scared of Zimmerman because he thought he was a thug (or some other form of criminal threat)?

I believe that he thought Zimmerman was calling the cops. I've given my reasons why I think this. If you think I'm wrong about that, then by all means explain why you think otherwise.

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I'm going to guess that your next question is "why was he specifically afraid"? Am I right?


Really? You have to guess? I could have sworn I very clearly asked you to be more specific several times already. You don't actually think this is some kind of "Gotcha! See. You followed up with exactly what I predicted you would!!!" think, right? Um... Earth to Alma. I already asked you for this. It's the entire point of what I've been talking about:

Did Martin run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, or because he thought Zimmerman represented a lawful threat? It's only what I've been trying to get at for like 2 weeks now. Do you have an opinion? Or are you going to continue to tap dance around it?
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#605 Aug 13 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
From Martin's perspective (which is the only one that matters if we're asking why he did that), it was the first action. He walked down the street. He saw a person sitting in a car. As he got closer he realized that the person in the car was looking at him and talking on a cell phone. Then Martin ran away from the person in the car. The question is: Why did he run?


Martin running was not the first action, unless you believe Martin was NOT suspicious to Zimmerman prior to running. If I recall correctly, Zimmerman called the police about Martin's suspicious activity PRIOR to Martin running. So, Martin obviously had to be conducting a particular ACTION in order to be suspicious.

Gbaji wrote:
But that's all that happened up to that point.

Read above.

How can Zimmerman label Martin suspicious if Martin wasn't doing anything suspicious?

Gbaji wrote:
This is what I've been trying to get you to understand all along. What Zimmerman thought about Martin was irrelevant to Martin's decision to run from Zimmerman. All that matters is what Martin was thinking at that point. And up to that point, all we know happened was that he walked by a car with a guy sitting in it, looking at him, and talking on his cell phone.

Assuming we all agree that Martin likely does not normally flee from every person sitting in a car talking on their cell phone that he sees, then there must have been some other reason why he did run in this particular case. So what about this situation was special that made him feel he needed to run? Many have argued that Martin ran because he believed that Zimmerman represented some kind of criminal threat. He thought he was a rapist, or robber, or serial killer or something. But I have a problem with that because we have a recording of the entire period of time during which Martin was at first unaware of Zimmerman, then became aware of him, and then ran from him. Yet there's nothing on the audio to indicate that Zimmerman did or said anything which would make a reasonable person come to any of the above conclusions about Zimmerman representing a criminal threat to Martin.


I have therefore proposed the theory that Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman because he thought he represented a criminal threat, but because he represented a lawful one. If Martin was aware that his behavior while walking down the road could be perceived as suspicious, it's entirely reasonable for him to conclude that the guy looking at him and talking on his cell phone might be calling the cops. And that might be why he ran away. At least, that's my theory. If you have one you think is better, then by all means present it.

Gbaji wrote:
The question of why Martin ran, and speculation about what he was doing when walking down that street that night are purely side issues
...
No part of any argument I've made rests on the assumption that Martin was up to no good. Period. End of story. WTF?



I've addressed this several times. Martin was suspicious of Zimmerman. Whether or not if it was because Martin believed Zimmerman was a rapist, killer (which he is) or an extension of the law is irrelevant. Fearing a police officer doesn't make you guilty of anything, so in the words of the next president of the United States of America "At this point, what difference does it make?"

You're obviously still trying to portray Martin as a potential criminal, but unless you can provide any supporting facts, proof and or evidence, you have no point. Are you honestly saying that you see no value in your statements of committing potential crimes? IF not, then WTF did you say it? Your entire argument started from you accusing that he was up to no good.

Gbaji wrote:
Wrong. I never said it was self defense because Martin was not as innocent as the media portrayed him. I said it was self defense because at the time he fired his weapon, he was flat on his back with Martin on top of him, pinning him down and punching him in the face. That's what makes it self defense.


That's exactly what I just said. People were portraying Martin as a 100% victim, while you were pointing out that Zimmerman was getting his punk **** kicked by a 17 year old.

Gbaji wrote:
Really? You have to guess? I could have sworn I very clearly asked you to be more specific several times already. You don't actually think this is some kind of "Gotcha! See. You followed up with exactly what I predicted you would!!!" think, right? Um... Earth to Alma. I already asked you for this. It's the entire point of what I've been talking about:

No, I was pointing out the fact, that no matter how many times I answer the question, you seem oblivious to the answer. So, I guess, it was a Gotcha...

Gabji wrote:
Did Martin run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, or because he thought Zimmerman represented a lawful threat? It's only what I've been trying to get at for like 2 weeks now. Do you have an opinion? Or are you going to continue to tap dance around it?

Gbaji wrote:
It's because far too many black men are taught to fear/hate the law. So when a cop shows up, they run.
When they are chased they continue to try to get away. And when they're cornered, they fight."


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#606 Aug 14 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
From Martin's perspective (which is the only one that matters if we're asking why he did that), it was the first action. He walked down the street. He saw a person sitting in a car. As he got closer he realized that the person in the car was looking at him and talking on a cell phone. Then Martin ran away from the person in the car. The question is: Why did he run?


Martin running was not the first action, unless you believe Martin was NOT suspicious to Zimmerman prior to running. If I recall correctly, Zimmerman called the police about Martin's suspicious activity PRIOR to Martin running. So, Martin obviously had to be conducting a particular ACTION in order to be suspicious.


Yes. Which is part of my point here. We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars and talking on a cell phone. There is no reason for him to run.

What I'm getting at is that many people insist that Martin didn't do anything suspicious at all, so Zimmerman's attentions must have been some form of racial profiling. But I believe that Martin's decision to run only makes sense *if* he also believed that what he'd been doing looked suspicious. Hence why I've been speculating that Martin didn't run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, but a lawful one.

Quote:
How can Zimmerman label Martin suspicious if Martin wasn't doing anything suspicious?


Correct. Which means that Zimmerman thought that what Martin was doing looked suspicious. My point here is that Martin also thought that what he was doing looked suspicious. And that's why he ran.

Quote:
I've addressed this several times. Martin was suspicious of Zimmerman. Whether or not if it was because Martin believed Zimmerman was a rapist, killer (which he is) or an extension of the law is irrelevant. Fearing a police officer doesn't make you guilty of anything, so in the words of the next president of the United States of America "At this point, what difference does it make?"


Uh... It makes a huge difference (in both cases, as it happens). We can understand someone choosing to run from a criminal. We don't normally look so well on people who run from the cops.

Quote:
You're obviously still trying to portray Martin as a potential criminal...


Everyone is a potential criminal. The point I'm making is that Martin wasn't acting in a manner consistent with someone who was just innocently walking home. His behavior fueled Zimmerman's suspicions. Part of my point here is that this is far far too common behavior among young black men, and it gets them into trouble they might otherwise avoid.

Quote:
Your entire argument started from you accusing that he was up to no good.


No. I said he might be up to no good. It's about possibility. But when someone who merely looks like they might be up to no good runs away from you once they realized that you've seen them, that tends to confirm that suspicion, doesn't it? If you see someone loitering in an aisle in a store you're working at, you might suspect the person is planning to shoplift something. If you walk down the aisle towards that person and he runs away from you, what does that usually tell you?


Quote:
Gbaji wrote:
Really? You have to guess? I could have sworn I very clearly asked you to be more specific several times already. You don't actually think this is some kind of "Gotcha! See. You followed up with exactly what I predicted you would!!!" think, right? Um... Earth to Alma. I already asked you for this. It's the entire point of what I've been talking about:

No, I was pointing out the fact, that no matter how many times I answer the question, you seem oblivious to the answer. So, I guess, it was a Gotcha...


Um... It's not a gotcha when I directly ask for X, and not Y, but you respond with Y instead and then say "Oh. But you're going to say Y isn't good enough and I must provide X". Uh. Yeah. Because it's what I asked for in the first place.

Quote:
Gabji wrote:
Did Martin run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, or because he thought Zimmerman represented a lawful threat? It's only what I've been trying to get at for like 2 weeks now. Do you have an opinion? Or are you going to continue to tap dance around it?

Gbaji wrote:
It's because far too many black men are taught to fear/hate the law. So when a cop shows up, they run.
When they are chased they continue to try to get away. And when they're cornered, they fight."



And I'll note that once again, you've refused to answer the question. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge something that is so plain and clear? Worse, it's the unwillingness to acknowledge and address this that is causing so much harm and pain for African Americans, yet we're all so afraid of being non-politically correct that we don't want to talk about it. I honestly believe that this is a huge problem. But as a white male, I can't fix it. I can only point it out and hope that maybe someone will realize that maybe, just maybe, a whole **** of a lot of the problems in the black community aren't being caused by an unfair legal system, or racist cops, or a rigged economic system, but by those very assumptions constantly being drilled into the minds of young black children, so that they don't trust the police, don't trust the legal system, and don't believe they can ever succeed economically.


Gee. That can't possibly have an adverse affect on the socio-economic outcomes of a group, can it?
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#607 Aug 14 2013 at 4:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Yes. Which is part of my point here. We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars and talking on a cell phone. There is no reason for him to run.

What I'm getting at is that many people insist that Martin didn't do anything suspicious at all, so Zimmerman's attentions must have been some form of racial profiling. But I believe that Martin's decision to run only makes sense *if* he also believed that what he'd been doing looked suspicious. Hence why I've been speculating that Martin didn't run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, but a lawful one.

Which is where the whole thing gets nutty.

My understanding is that there only 1 person that witnessed this we can ask to testify, and that's Zimmerman. No cameras, no other witnesses witnessed this "suspicious behavior", nothing like that. Given that it's nigh impossible for anyone outside to be able to be able to make a good independent assessment of what that actions were. There's nothing concrete we can point to suggesting he was profiled, and there's also no way to confirm he wasn't (assuming of course that Zimmerman would deny profiling if he did in fact do it). Were trying to interpret actions no one except Zimmerman witnessed.

Either way it makes the back and forth debates more interesting, so by all means do carry on.

Smiley: popcorn
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#608 Aug 14 2013 at 4:39 PM Rating: Good
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There's nothing interesting about this back and forth ****
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#609 Aug 14 2013 at 4:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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No morbid curiosity about how long they can drag it out?
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#610 Aug 14 2013 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.
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#611 Aug 14 2013 at 4:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh well, no one has ever accused me of being hard to entertain. Smiley: rolleyes
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#612 Aug 14 2013 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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I don't think I'm hard to entertain by any means but this thread is just dreadful.
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#613 Aug 14 2013 at 5:30 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Yes. Which is part of my point here. We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars and talking on a cell phone. There is no reason for him to run.

What I'm getting at is that many people insist that Martin didn't do anything suspicious at all, so Zimmerman's attentions must have been some form of racial profiling. But I believe that Martin's decision to run only makes sense *if* he also believed that what he'd been doing looked suspicious. Hence why I've been speculating that Martin didn't run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, but a lawful one.

Which is where the whole thing gets nutty.

My understanding is that there only 1 person that witnessed this we can ask to testify, and that's Zimmerman. No cameras, no other witnesses witnessed this "suspicious behavior", nothing like that. Given that it's nigh impossible for anyone outside to be able to be able to make a good independent assessment of what that actions were. There's nothing concrete we can point to suggesting he was profiled, and there's also no way to confirm he wasn't (assuming of course that Zimmerman would deny profiling if he did in fact do it). Were trying to interpret actions no one except Zimmerman witnessed.


Except we have an audio recording of Zimmerman's observations that night. While we can certainly speculate as to the degree to which his perception regarding Martin's behavior could be biased, it's incredibly unlikely that the gross actions he described were all just made up (he'd have no reason to do that). And that description (absent any bias about the nature of the behavior) described Martin walking up the street towards Zimmerman's parked car. It described a point in time at which Martin became aware of Zimmerman. It then described Martin running from Zimmerman. Then Zimmerman getting out of his car and following Martin.

Which gets back the the point I was making about Martin's decision to run. If Zimmerman's perception that Martin's behavior was suspicious was entirely in his own head (profiling), then why did Martin run from Zimmerman during the phone call? If Martin's behavior was actually completely normal, and it was just Zimmerman inventing the idea that it was suspicious, then Martin would have absolutely no reason to run. If it was all just profiling, then we almost have to conclude that not only did Zimmerman incorrectly profile Martin's actions as suspicious but Martin incorrectly profiled his own actions as suspicious. Which would seem to be impossible since Martin presumably knew what and why he was doing what he was doing. That decision to run from Zimmerman only makes sense if Martin was actually doing something which he realized someone else might view as suspicious.


Obviously, this line of thought starts with the premise that Martin had no reason to assume that Zimmerman was a criminal threat. Again though, we go back to the recording of the phone call. There's no evidence of any action by Zimmerman that Martin could reasonably interpret as criminal in nature. There's strong evidence that it was during the phone call that Martin first became aware of Zimmerman, so the oft-repeated claim that he ran because Zimmerman was chasing him around the complex in his car must be incorrect (if that was the case, why is he walking up the street towards Zimmerman's parked car, apparently oblivious to his presence?). So there's nothing but the contents of the phone call for us to go on. And there's nothing in that recording to suggest that Zimmerman took *any* aggressive action or presented any threat to Martin prior to Martin's decision to run. He ran before Zimmerman got out of his car. He ran before Zimmerman ever said a word to him.

He ran because he saw a man sitting in a car, looking at him, and talking on his phone. We can sit here and speculate about all these things for which we have no evidence and come up with all sorts of possible explanations. But isn't the most likely one that Zimmerman was right that Martin's behavior looked suspicious, and that Martin also knew that his behavior looked suspicious and came to the incredibly obvious conclusion that the guy in the car watching him and talking on his cell phone was likely calling the police? Again, we can speculate that Zimmerman didn't actually see suspicious behavior, but invented it because he's a racist, but then why did Martin run?

Both men's behavior is consistent with a scenario where Martin was doing something that looked suspicious and Martin knew that what he was doing looked suspicious (note, that doing something that looks suspicious does not mean actually breaking the law). Hence my speculation about why he ran. I'm completely open to alternative explanations, but so far no one has even attempted to present one that makes any sense at all.

Edited, Aug 14th 2013 4:33pm by gbaji
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#614 Aug 14 2013 at 7:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.

We had it nicely derailed but these chumps can't take a fucking hint.
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#615 Aug 14 2013 at 8:02 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Zimmerman's attentions must have been some form of racial profiling.
This would be the Zimmerman who said something like "these **** always get away with it"?

Yeah. That's profiling, numb-nuts.
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#616 Aug 14 2013 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.

We had it nicely derailed but these chumps can't take a fucking hint.


After years of observation, I discovered the secret to sucessfully thread hijacking from those particular individuals. you have to hijack it into a topic that also holds their interest enough to run with it. then they get the urge to post on the new topic, but don't want to risk abandoning the thread in progress, so they lock up in the mental equivelent of an infinite loop until someone hits reset. If you then post a third such topic hijack juuust at the right moment when they are booting, you can corrupt the bios stack and they explode. That's what really happened to Ominus trusk. /em realizes probably no one here even remembers that one...
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#617 Aug 14 2013 at 9:18 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
Yes. Which is part of my point here. We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars and talking on a cell phone. There is no reason for him to run.

What I'm getting at is that many people insist that Martin didn't do anything suspicious at all, so Zimmerman's attentions must have been some form of racial profiling. But I believe that Martin's decision to run only makes sense *if* he also believed that what he'd been doing looked suspicious. Hence why I've been speculating that Martin didn't run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, but a lawful one.


Gbaji wrote:

Correct. Which means that Zimmerman thought that what Martin was doing looked suspicious. My point here is that Martin also thought that what he was doing looked suspicious. And that's why he ran.



You can't have it both ways. Either Martin was suspicious before he ran or he wasn't. If he were suspicious, then running wasn't his first action. From Martin's perspective, he was on the cellphone, talking before he ran. Zimmerman even stated on the 9-1-1 call that Martin was APPROACHING him before he ran.

Gbaji wrote:

Uh... It makes a huge difference (in both cases, as it happens). We can understand someone choosing to run from a criminal. We don't normally look so well on people who run from the cops.


He didn't run from the cops. He ran from Zimmerman. If Zimmerman showed a badge and identified himself as a police officer, then you would have a point. Lolgaxe can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure running away from an undercover cop is not the same thing as running away from an officer who identified himself as the law. So, it doesn't matter what Martin thought Zimmerman was, because Zimmerman made no effort for clarification.

Gbaji wrote:
Everyone is a potential criminal. The point I'm making is that Martin wasn't acting in a manner consistent with someone who was just innocently walking home. His behavior fueled Zimmerman's suspicions. Part of my point here is that this is far far too common behavior among young black men, and it gets them into trouble they might otherwise avoid.

Gbaji wrote:
No. I said he might be up to no good. It's about possibility. But when someone who merely looks like they might be up to no good runs away from you once they realized that you've seen them, that tends to confirm that suspicion, doesn't it? If you see someone loitering in an aisle in a store you're working at, you might suspect the person is planning to shoplift something. If you walk down the aisle towards that person and he runs away from you, what does that usually tell you?


You can't argue that Martin was possibly, maybe, perhaps up to no good and then argue that it isn't part of your argument. If it isn't part of your argument, then WTFRU consistently mentioning it?

Gbaji wrote:
Um... It's not a gotcha when I directly ask for X, and not Y, but you respond with Y instead and then say "Oh. But you're going to say Y isn't good enough and I must provide X". Uh. Yeah. Because it's what I asked for in the first place.

You ask for X. I give you X.. You complain and ask for X again. I give you X and then ask "let me guess, you want X?"- That's a gotcha..

Gbaji wrote:
And I'll note that once again, you've refused to answer the question. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge something that is so plain and clear? Worse, it's the unwillingness to acknowledge and address this that is causing so much harm and pain for African Americans, yet we're all so afraid of being non-politically correct that we don't want to talk about it. I honestly believe that this is a huge problem. But as a white male, I can't fix it. I can only point it out and hope that maybe someone will realize that maybe, just maybe, a whole **** of a lot of the problems in the black community aren't being caused by an unfair legal system, or racist cops, or a rigged economic system, but by those very assumptions constantly being drilled into the minds of young black children, so that they don't trust the police, don't trust the legal system, and don't believe they can ever succeed economically.


Gee. That can't possibly have an adverse affect on the socio-economic outcomes of a group, can it?


Please tell me how that doesn't answer your question?

You asked why specifically did he run? I responded with
Gbaji wrote:
" It's because far too many black men are taught to fear/hate the law. So when a cop shows up, they run. When they are chased they continue to try to get away. And when they're cornered, they fight."


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#618 Aug 14 2013 at 9:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Both men's behavior is consistent with a scenario where Martin was doing something that looked suspicious and Martin knew that what he was doing looked suspicious (note, that doing something that looks suspicious does not mean actually breaking the law). Hence my speculation about why he ran. I'm completely open to alternative explanations, but so far no one has even attempted to present one that makes any sense at all.
Martin wouldn't be the first innocent person to flee because they realized they were suddenly in a situation that looked bad. It may not be the brightest move, but it's certainly not unheard of.
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#619 Aug 14 2013 at 9:43 PM Rating: Default
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Ugly wrote:
None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.

This is the easiest way to 10k. After that.. pfft. Care not do I..

protein wrote:
Martin wouldn't be the first innocent person to flee because they realized they were suddenly in a situation that looked bad. It may not be the brightest move, but it's certainly not unheard of.


He even said that black people are taught to do just that. Now he's arguing that Martin is a unique case that obviously was up to no good. He has more contradictions than the X-men film series!
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#620 Aug 15 2013 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars watching you like they want to wear your skin


This could also be a thing.

EDIT: cause it wasn't clear what I added

Edited, Aug 15th 2013 2:11pm by stupidmonkey
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#621 Aug 15 2013 at 4:29 AM Rating: Default
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars watching you like they want to wear your skin


This could also be a thing.


Given that the likelihood of Martin running away from random people sitting in cars is low, then obviously Zimmerman wasn't just some random person sitting in a car.
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#622 Aug 15 2013 at 6:15 AM Rating: Good
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You guys haven't figured all this out yet?
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#623 Aug 15 2013 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
No morbid curiosity about how long they can drag it out?
This is one of those last one crosses the finish line wins things, and both competitors are dead.
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#624 Aug 15 2013 at 9:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
You guys haven't figured all this out yet?
Sometimes when you build up enough momentum it's hard to just stop right away. Maybe we transition to something else? Like if Martin had been carrying a flat of blueberries do you think he would have been racially profiled?
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#625 Aug 15 2013 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Why can't they just be berries, and not blueberries?
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#626 Aug 15 2013 at 9:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Why can't they just be berries, and not blueberries?
Are you saying color isn't important?! You can't just turn a blind eye to this kind of thing and pretend it's not there! Smiley: motz
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#627 Aug 15 2013 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Blueberries are delicious. I recently found that Costco sells 2KG bags of blueberries for $10. That's awesome.
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#628 Aug 15 2013 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.


The sun will give up before gbaji will.

Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.

We had it nicely derailed but these chumps can't take a fucking hint.


After years of observation, I discovered the secret to sucessfully thread hijacking from those particular individuals. you have to hijack it into a topic that also holds their interest enough to run with it. then they get the urge to post on the new topic, but don't want to risk abandoning the thread in progress, so they lock up in the mental equivelent of an infinite loop until someone hits reset. If you then post a third such topic hijack juuust at the right moment when they are booting, you can corrupt the bios stack and they explode. That's what really happened to Ominus trusk. /em realizes probably no one here even remembers that one...


This is clearly a lovers spat between Martin and Zimmerman, which led to an expensive trial, which obviously proves that **** marriage is a burden on our economic systems.

Something like that?
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#629 Aug 15 2013 at 12:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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This may be the longest =4 thread that I've just completely not given a shit about.
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#630 Aug 15 2013 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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That implies there are =4 threads that you do give a shit about.
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#631 Aug 15 2013 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ha ha, you care about stuff.
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#632 Aug 15 2013 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ha ha, you care about stuff.

I care about you laughing at me Smiley: crymore
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#633 Aug 15 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
This whole thread is chock full of caring.
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#634 Aug 15 2013 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Both men's behavior is consistent with a scenario where Martin was doing something that looked suspicious and Martin knew that what he was doing looked suspicious (note, that doing something that looks suspicious does not mean actually breaking the law). Hence my speculation about why he ran. I'm completely open to alternative explanations, but so far no one has even attempted to present one that makes any sense at all.
Martin wouldn't be the first innocent person to flee because they realized they were suddenly in a situation that looked bad. It may not be the brightest move, but it's certainly not unheard of.


Absolutely. This is exactly what I've been talking about all along. It's not about whether Martin was actually doing anything wrong, but how he reacted to what he believed to be a man calling the police on him. Hell. It's not even about whether Martin was actually doing anything which someone might think was suspicious. All it requires is that he think someone else might think what he was doing was suspicious and is calling the cops on him. And I even explained why this is a problem:

Quote:
If my speculation is correct, than Martin's death was the direct result of his own fears of police/authority. Had he not reacted as he did to a man sitting in a parked car talking on a cell phone the way he did, he would be alive today. But he (and many young black men) have been indoctrinated into a culture of fear and distrust of the law and police. This unfortunately leads many young black men to make incredibly poor choices when confronted with these sorts of situations, often escalating them in ways that cause ridiculously out of proportion negative outcomes (almost always for the young black man). I'm arguing that we should *not* be responding to this case by reinforcing that fear, but that's exactly what many are doing. And the result of this will be yet more black men in prison or graves because we're unwilling or unable to be honest about what's actually causing the problem.



This is why it's relevant. Because as long as we keep excusing the decision of folks like Martin to run in situations like that, and instead attacking everyone else involved for "making him scared", we are only perpetuating the very problem that's contributing to higher arrest and fatalities among black men. Ever watch a cops or worlds wildest police chases (or similar) show? It's pretty common to have the cops show up (or pull someone over for a minor thing) and the guy runs away. The cops chase him because he's running. He runs faster because they're chasing him. Situation escalates, people get hurt, he gets arrested. And when it's all done? No wants. No warrants. Not doing anything illegal. When asked why he ran? "I don't know. I was just scared".

Maybe we should stop teaching people (especially young black men who do seem to be massively more likely to react this way) to fear the police? Because this sure looks to be something that hurts more black men than any number of actual racist cops do. And in this particular case, it resulted in the death of Martin. A death that could have been trivially avoided if he hadn't massively overreacted to the situation he found himself in.

Edited, Aug 15th 2013 1:31pm by gbaji
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#635 Aug 15 2013 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Arguing with gbaji?

That's a paddlin.
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#636 Aug 15 2013 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Maybe we should stop teaching people (especially young black men who do seem to be massively more likely to react this way) to fear the police? Because this sure looks to be something that hurts more black men than any number of actual racist cops do. And in this particular case, it resulted in the death of Martin. A death that could have been trivially avoided if he hadn't massively overreacted to the situation he found himself in.
Okay sure, I'm all for that. People should be able to trust their police people and what not. I'm pretty sure we're working on that already. There's a lot of community outreach programs in various cities, with varying levels of success.
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#637 Aug 15 2013 at 2:54 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Maybe we should stop teaching people (especially young black men who do seem to be massively more likely to react this way) to fear the police? Because this sure looks to be something that hurts more black men than any number of actual racist cops do. And in this particular case, it resulted in the death of Martin. A death that could have been trivially avoided if he hadn't massively overreacted to the situation he found himself in.
Okay sure, I'm all for that. People should be able to trust their police people and what not. I'm pretty sure we're working on that already. There's a lot of community outreach programs in various cities, with varying levels of success.


Which gets totally stomped into the dust when the overwhelming message from black leaders in response to this case is that there's no justice and the system is rigged against black people. This is what I've been talking about. That message is what will make the next teen make the exact same mistake Martin made. And that's the true tragedy of this. They had an opportunity here to talk about the issue of fear of police/law and how harmful it is to the black community, but instead they decided to use cheap rhetoric to simply instill more of the same fear.

You'd almost think that black leaders want their people to be poor and afraid. But that would just be crazy conspiracy theory talk, right?
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#638 Aug 15 2013 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
You'd almost think that black leaders want their people to be poor and afraid. But that would just be crazy conspiracy theory talk, right?
Pretty much. I have an extra special hat if you want one. Smiley: tinfoilhat

Loud nutty people say nutty things loudly. Between the above mentioned and the gun nuts there was plenty of poorly chosen language floating around this case. If all it takes is some nut job in another state saying something to ruin people's opinion of the local cops I'd suspect the local outreach program has other problems.
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#639 Aug 15 2013 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Something like that?



Perfect, now just wait for the right moment and follow it up with some sort of topic about how much Armor a republican newt alligned paladin could wear, and how that higher AC is worth more than the resulting Hitpoint drop due to negitive gingrich CHA is a detrement, and watch the fireworks!
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#640 Aug 15 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:

Pretty much. I have an extra special hat if you want one. Smiley: tinfoilhat


Sure, the Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie looks stylish, and certanly protects you from the overhead spy brain sat scans, but they also focus your brainwaves straight down like a parabolic array at the thought detectors in the streets. Where are these thought detectors you ask? in the roads, at every crosswalk! Sure some people claim those are just induction loops to control traffic signals, but you and I both know better.

The only sure protection is a tin foil hat AND tin foil deflector underwear with an extra wide overlapping brim!
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#641 Aug 15 2013 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
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Idiggory wrote:

The sun will give up before gbaji will.


Don't give Gbaji any ideas. I clearly have him on the ropes. He has no way out without admitting some error and he realizes it. I don't want him to give some lame cop out for dropping out. Which, he inevitably will.
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#642 Aug 15 2013 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Do us all a favour, hold your breath waiting for him to admit it.
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#643 Aug 15 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
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SomeProtein wrote:
Okay sure, I'm all for that. People should be able to trust their police people and what not. I'm pretty sure we're working on that already. There's a lot of community outreach programs in various cities, with varying levels of success.


You fell for his distraction. He's been waving that "black people are brainwashed to do x,y,z" for quite some time to distract him from his inability to substantiate any point. Ironically, it only contradicted his previous claim! lol He didn't realize it until I pointed it out!


Ugly wrote:
Do us all a favour, hold your breath waiting for him to admit it.

Maybe you misunderstood my post. I said that he will inevitably cop out with some lame excuse.
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#644 Aug 15 2013 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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No, I understood your post. I'm just being optimistic here. It's about thinking positive!
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#645 Aug 15 2013 at 8:50 PM Rating: Default
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Almalieque wrote:
He has no way out without admitting some error and he realizes it.


You're kidding right? Here's the way this argument has gone so far:

Me: I think that X=1 (followed by argument for why I think this).
You: But what about Y?
Me: Well, Y doesn't really matter with regard to X, but I suppose I think it's 5
You: But you can't prove it's 5!!!
Me: No. But you asked my opinion, and I answered. It really has no bearing on the value of X.
You: But without either proving that Y is 5 or admitting you're wrong, you can't say what you think X is!
Me: Um... Yeah, I can. I did at the very beginning. It has nothing to do with Y.
You: But you can't prove Y is 5!!! <stomps feet>
Me: Ok. I can't prove it. Happy? I honestly don't care what Y is, and it has no bearing on my argument with regard to X.
You: Oh. So you admit you're wrong about X!
Me. Um... No.
You: But you just admitted that you have no proof (or evidence, or facts. this changes like underwear).
Me. About the value of Y. But I'm talking about X. It's what I've been talking about all along.
You: Now you're just trying to distract from the issue!
Me: Sigh...

Edited, Aug 15th 2013 7:50pm by gbaji
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#646 Aug 15 2013 at 11:49 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
You're kidding right?


No.

1. You initially argued that Martin's ACTIONS PRIOR to him running were suspicious, hence why Zimmerman made the phone call. Now you're arguing that Martin's FIRST action was him running (even though Zimmerman said otherwise). Both can't be right.

2. You claim that I didn't answer your question on why I think Martin ran, yet when I quote YOUR very own response on how these instances play out, you claim that isn't an answer. So, is it only valid when you say it? It's either an answer or it isn't.

So, you can continue with your lame cop-out (which I predicted).
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#647 Aug 16 2013 at 12:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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10. print "no, U!"
20. goto 10
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#648 Aug 16 2013 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Also, there are 600 people in the ffxiv forum at the moment. What the hell?
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#649 Aug 16 2013 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Also, there are 600 people in the ffxiv forum at the moment. What the hell?
Early access just started I think.
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#650 Aug 16 2013 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Also, there are 600 people in the ffxiv forum at the moment. What the hell?
Pregame jitters.
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#651 Aug 16 2013 at 9:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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And 810 of them are named anonymous. That means -210 of them are um... wow. I'm staying away from there, scary stuff man.
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