Zimmerman TrialFollow

Yeah, but that's one of those statements that sounds good on paper but is never really acted upon. Kind of like "all men are created equal." If anyone really believed it, why would everyone be either be tossed in a cage until proven innocent, or have to pay a substantial fee in order to walk around?

From Martin's perspective (which is the only one that matters if we're asking why he did that), it was the first action. He walked down the street. He saw a person sitting in a car. As he got closer he realized that the person in the car was looking at him and talking on a cell phone. Then Martin ran away from the person in the car. The question is: Why did he run?



But that's all that happened up to that point. This is what I've been trying to get you to understand all along. What Zimmerman thought about Martin was irrelevant to Martin's decision to run from Zimmerman. All that matters is what Martin was thinking at that point. And up to that point, all we know happened was that he walked by a car with a guy sitting in it, looking at him, and talking on his cell phone.

Assuming we all agree that Martin likely does not normally flee from every person sitting in a car talking on their cell phone that he sees, then there must have been some other reason why he did run in this particular case. So what about this situation was special that made him feel he needed to run? Many have argued that Martin ran because he believed that Zimmerman represented some kind of criminal threat. He thought he was a rapist, or robber, or serial killer or something. But I have a problem with that because we have a recording of the entire period of time during which Martin was at first unaware of Zimmerman, then became aware of him, and then ran from him. Yet there's nothing on the audio to indicate that Zimmerman did or said anything which would make a reasonable person come to any of the above conclusions about Zimmerman representing a criminal threat to Martin.


I have therefore proposed the theory that Martin wasn't afraid of Zimmerman because he thought he represented a criminal threat, but because he represented a lawful one. If Martin was aware that his behavior while walking down the road could be perceived as suspicious, it's entirely reasonable for him to conclude that the guy looking at him and talking on his cell phone might be calling the cops. And that might be why he ran away. At least, that's my theory. If you have one you think is better, then by all means present it.



Wrong. I never said it was self defense because Martin was not as innocent as the media portrayed him. I said it was self defense because at the time he fired his weapon, he was flat on his back with Martin on top of him, pinning him down and punching him in the face. That's what makes it self defense.

The question of why Martin ran, and speculation about what he was doing when walking down that street that night are purely side issues. I only raise them in response to other people insisting that Martin did nothing at all to justify Zimmerman's actions. Specifically, that Zimmerman should not have gotten out of his car. I'm also trying to counter the oft-repeated claim that Zimmerman chased Martin in his car, or that Martin was afraid of Zimmerman because Zimmerman was chasing him.

The significance of Martin's decision to run is that it happened before Zimmerman had done anything overtly aggressive towards Martin at all. Martin wasn't running from someone who was chasing him. He ran from a guy in a parked car. If we're to place any weight at all on what was going through the two men's heads that night, this is kind of a big question, right?



Sigh. I've said this like 8 times now, but I'll repeat it again:

No part of any argument I've made rests on the assumption that Martin was up to no good. Period. End of story. WTF?



Which do you think it was though? Was he scared because he thought Zimmerman was a cop (or was calling the cops)? Or do you think he was scared of Zimmerman because he thought he was a thug (or some other form of criminal threat)?

I believe that he thought Zimmerman was calling the cops. I've given my reasons why I think this. If you think I'm wrong about that, then by all means explain why you think otherwise.



Really? You have to guess? I could have sworn I very clearly asked you to be more specific several times already. You don't actually think this is some kind of "Gotcha! See. You followed up with exactly what I predicted you would!!!" think, right? Um... Earth to Alma. I already asked you for this. It's the entire point of what I've been talking about:

Did Martin run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, or because he thought Zimmerman represented a lawful threat? It's only what I've been trying to get at for like 2 weeks now. Do you have an opinion? Or are you going to continue to tap dance around it?

Yes. Which is part of my point here. We're talking about how things looked from Martin's perspective. So if Martin did not believe that what he'd been doing prior to spotting Zimmerman in his car was suspicious (or at least would look suspicious), then we're left with the bizarre conclusion that Martin normally just flees people sitting in their cars and talking on a cell phone. There is no reason for him to run.

What I'm getting at is that many people insist that Martin didn't do anything suspicious at all, so Zimmerman's attentions must have been some form of racial profiling. But I believe that Martin's decision to run only makes sense *if* he also believed that what he'd been doing looked suspicious. Hence why I've been speculating that Martin didn't run because he thought Zimmerman represented a criminal threat, but a lawful one.



Correct. Which means that Zimmerman thought that what Martin was doing looked suspicious. My point here is that Martin also thought that what he was doing looked suspicious. And that's why he ran.



Uh... It makes a huge difference (in both cases, as it happens). We can understand someone choosing to run from a criminal. We don't normally look so well on people who run from the cops.



Everyone is a potential criminal. The point I'm making is that Martin wasn't acting in a manner consistent with someone who was just innocently walking home. His behavior fueled Zimmerman's suspicions. Part of my point here is that this is far far too common behavior among young black men, and it gets them into trouble they might otherwise avoid.



No. I said he might be up to no good. It's about possibility. But when someone who merely looks like they might be up to no good runs away from you once they realized that you've seen them, that tends to confirm that suspicion, doesn't it? If you see someone loitering in an aisle in a store you're working at, you might suspect the person is planning to shoplift something. If you walk down the aisle towards that person and he runs away from you, what does that usually tell you?




Um... It's not a gotcha when I directly ask for X, and not Y, but you respond with Y instead and then say "Oh. But you're going to say Y isn't good enough and I must provide X". Uh. Yeah. Because it's what I asked for in the first place.



And I'll note that once again, you've refused to answer the question. Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge something that is so plain and clear? Worse, it's the unwillingness to acknowledge and address this that is causing so much harm and pain for African Americans, yet we're all so afraid of being non-politically correct that we don't want to talk about it. I honestly believe that this is a huge problem. But as a white male, I can't fix it. I can only point it out and hope that maybe someone will realize that maybe, just maybe, a whole hell of a lot of the problems in the black community aren't being caused by an unfair legal system, or racist cops, or a rigged economic system, but by those very assumptions constantly being drilled into the minds of young black children, so that they don't trust the police, don't trust the legal system, and don't believe they can ever succeed economically.


Gee. That can't possibly have an adverse affect on the socio-economic outcomes of a group, can it?

There's nothing interesting about this back and forth *********

None. I already know that Alma will give up before gbaji will.

I don't think I'm hard to entertain by any means but this thread is just dreadful.

We had it nicely derailed but these chumps can't take a fucking hint.

After years of observation, I discovered the secret to sucessfully thread hijacking from those particular individuals. you have to hijack it into a topic that also holds their interest enough to run with it. then they get the urge to post on the new topic, but don't want to risk abandoning the thread in progress, so they lock up in the mental equivelent of an infinite loop until someone hits reset. If you then post a third such topic hijack juuust at the right moment when they are booting, you can corrupt the bios stack and they explode. That's what really happened to Ominus trusk. /em realizes probably no one here even remembers that one...

Martin wouldn't be the first innocent person to flee because they realized they were suddenly in a situation that looked bad. It may not be the brightest move, but it's certainly not unheard of.

This could also be a thing.

EDIT: cause it wasn't clear what I added

Edited, Aug 15th 2013 2:11pm by stupidmonkey

You guys haven't figured all this out yet?

Sometimes when you build up enough momentum it's hard to just stop right away. Maybe we transition to something else? Like if Martin had been carrying a flat of blueberries do you think he would have been racially profiled?

Are you saying color isn't important?! You can't just turn a blind eye to this kind of thing and pretend it's not there!