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#202 Dec 18 2012 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Edit - and my most sincere apologies for responding to a question that was for Smash - I'd suggest a pm in the future to avoid such misunderstandings. Smiley: rolleyes


Er... "I was asking Smash about" = "I was asking about Smash's comment" = really, anyone could answer the question.

I may not be the most articulate, but are you really so bereft of basic communication skills that everything must be interpreted so literally?


Edited, Dec 18th 2012 2:31pm by BrownDuck
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#203 Dec 18 2012 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
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#204 Dec 18 2012 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#205 Dec 18 2012 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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#209 Dec 18 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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#210 Dec 18 2012 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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#211 Dec 18 2012 at 3:41 PM Rating: Good
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EDIT: Alternate post - NEGA HITLER.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 4:42pm by Eske
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#212 Dec 18 2012 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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#213 Dec 18 2012 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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#214 Dec 18 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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#215 Dec 18 2012 at 4:00 PM Rating: Default
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Elinda wrote:
But in the big picture adding armed guards to a community simply puts more guns on the streets.
If this is supposed to be a deterrent, you need to consider who you're talking to. gbaji doesn't believe more guns in the community is a bad thing at all.


Correct. More to the point, simply saying "that puts more guns on the streets" doesn't have any meaning if you can't show that "more guns on the streets" is actually a bad thing. More guns in the hands of criminals? Bad. More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens? Good. The problem is that right now our laws are structured such that it ensures that the folks who don't care about the gun laws themselves will be armed, while those who do wont be. A guy who's planning on shooting up a school isn't going to care about the gun charge added onto the multiple murder charges. The guy who might want to be armed just in case something like that happens, will care about the gun charge, so he wont be armed. Advantage: Mass shooter.


And since several people brought it up: Yes, a teacher could snap and decide to take his gun to school and kill a bunch of kids. But he could do that right now. There's nothing preventing this in our current law. The imaginary legal boundary that says "you can't have guns in here" isn't going to stop the person who's decided to commit murder. It will only ensure that no one in that area will ever be sufficiently armed to stop that person. Until the police arrive, of course, which is historically always been too late.
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#216 Dec 18 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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#217 Dec 18 2012 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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#218 Dec 18 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
I can't find an English article for it at the moment but the news here reported that since Belgium started enforcing a law that means you have to prove that you need a gun to be able to buy any sort of gun or rifle in 2006 deaths from gun shootings (murders and suicides) have halved from 134 in 2005 to 68 in 2010.


Which just shows how easily statistics can be manipulated to whatever argument you want to make. In 2006, the murder rate in Belgium was already going down from a high point in 2002 of 3.1 per 100k to 2.12 per 100k. It kinda bounced up and down, so there's no real support for the idea that 2006 was some banner year in which murder rates as a whole changed significantly.


A more interesting bit to take away from those two facts though, is that this somewhat supports the argument that when guns become harder to obtain, people simply switch to using different methods to kill people. While gun shootings went down by half between 2006 and 2010, the homicide rate as a whole only decreased marginally over that time frame. Which either means that homicides by guns were only a tiny portion of total homicides *or* that folks simply changed the method they used to kill other people. I suppose another possibility is that the reduction mostly occurred in the area of suicides and not homicides.

Point being that the stats you provided don't really say what you probably thought they did. Obviously, if you make it harder to actually posses a gun, fewer people will commit crimes using guns. But does that actually result in a reduction of crime, or even types of crimes that we're most concerned about? Typically it doesn't. Certainly, the statistics are varied enough that one can't make a definitive conclusion at all. But that doesn't stop people from assuming that less guns does mean less crime though. It's a cart before the horse kind of thinking, but it's pretty prevalent on the anti-gun side of the debate.
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#219 Dec 18 2012 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
More guns in the hands of criminals? Bad. More guns in the hands of law abiding citizens? Good.


People who were law abiding citizens until they snapped and went on a murder spree:

- Seung-Hui Cho (Virginia Tech, 2007
- Jacob Tyler Roberts (Oregon, 2012)
- James Holmes (Colorado 2012)
- Adam Lanza (Last Friday)

The list goes on, but is it really necessary or do you get the fallcy of your statement yet?
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#220 Dec 18 2012 at 5:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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In a statement sent to reporters Tuesday afternoon, the nation’s largest gun-rights lobbying organization said it was “prepared to offer meaningful contributions to help make sure this never happens again.”

The group said it would hold a news conference Friday in the nation’s capital, but said details would be released later.

The NRA said it was “shocked, saddened and heartbroken by the news of the horrific and senseless murders in Newtown.”

But the NRA said it had refrained from commenting “out of respect for the families, and as a matter of common decency.


Well that's a first. I wonder what their opinion will be on Friday.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 5:55pm by BrownDuck
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#221gbaji, Posted: Dec 18 2012 at 6:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Do you get the fallacy of yours? They cease to be law abiding once they snap and go on a murder spree. You know what else changes? They cease to care if they're violating concealed carry laws and gun free zones once they do snap. I'm making the point that gun free zones and the absence of legal concealed carry do not prevent the criminal from killing people. All they do is prevent law abiding citizens from stopping them because they are abiding by the laws which prevent them from having a firearm at the time/place of the attack.
#222 Dec 18 2012 at 6:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
There was also the Japanese, the commies, the blacks and the gays.

While many of the US groups with goals of ethnic/racial/political/religious elimination were not sanctified by the government they were tolerated.

Our government, of course, did attempt to eliminate the Native Americans. The act didn't call for death as a means of elimination. None-the-less tens of thousands died in a forced exile march.



No government-led genocidal policy against the Japanese or blacks. Indians, of course, are another story entirely. When you have cavalry officers ordering the deaths of women and children specifically because "nits make lice", and that cavalry officer is subsequently decorated, there's a definite whiff of genocide in the air.

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#223 Dec 18 2012 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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They cease to be law abiding once they snap and go on a murder spree.


So as soon as they snap, their legal right is taken away as well as any fire arms. Is that what you are hinting at. They magickly are no longer armed and so therefore less of a danger?

If so how are you proposing the govt know when someone popped the last of the bubble wrap in their mind?
#224 Dec 18 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Good
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Do you get the fallacy of yours? They cease to be law abiding once they snap and go on a murder spree.


Oh, you. You're like an adorable 6 year old with Down's Syndrome explaining why god exists. Don't ever change.
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#225 Dec 18 2012 at 7:23 PM Rating: Default
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Zymunn wrote:
Quote:
They cease to be law abiding once they snap and go on a murder spree.


So as soon as they snap, their legal right is taken away as well as any fire arms. Is that what you are hinting at. They magickly are no longer armed and so therefore less of a danger?


Huh? How the **** did you arrive at that response? Of course not. I'm saying that once they snap and decide to kill a bunch of people, their ability to do so is in no way impaired by laws which prohibit concealed carry or which prohibit firearms entirely in specific areas (like near schools). They will not abide by the laws that say "you can't carry a firearm in this area", but the law abiding gun owners will. Get it?

Remember that my assumption is that the 2nd amendment is not going to be removed anytime soon (a reasonable assumption). Thus we have to assume that both people who will use firearms to commit crimes and those who wont will be able to obtain them (cause we can't tell them apart until after they start committing crimes, right?). A concealed carry permit and removal of gun free zones doesn't help the mass shooter kill a bunch of people. But it does make it possible for someone else to stop him.

Do people really have such strong mental blocks about gun control that they can't see this? Those laws do absolutely nothing to protect people. If someone wants to commit a crime with a gun, he's already accepted a potential legal penalty that is far greater than that committed by illegally carrying the weapon, or taking it into a gun free zone. Those laws present zero deterrent to his actions. However, they do create an effective deterrent to anyone else who isn't planning on committing a crime, so those people will not carry them or bring them into those areas.


Quote:
If so how are you proposing the govt know when someone popped the last of the bubble wrap in their mind?


I'm not. Nothing at all in my post suggests much less requires that the government do anything at all, or know anything more about the people involved than it currently does. I'm kinda puzzled why you think so. Whether a person is "law abiding" isn't some status the government maintains for them. It's a simple question of whether that person is abiding the law. So the guy who marches into a school with a firearm and starts shooting kids is *not* abiding by the law. The guy who does not have his firearm with him because the law says he can't carry it near a school *is* abiding with the law.

Was that really so hard to grasp? Those laws only serve to ensure that the folks who aren't trying to kill you don't have guns, while those who are do. Set your knee jerk reactions aside and actually think the issue through and you'll see that this is true.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 5:23pm by gbaji
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#226 Dec 18 2012 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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#227 Dec 18 2012 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
How the **** did you arrive at that response? Of course not. I'm saying that once they snap and decide to kill a bunch of people, their ability to do so is in no way impaired by laws which prohibit concealed carry or which prohibit firearms entirely in specific areas (like near schools). They will not abide by the laws that say "you can't carry a firearm in this area", but the law abiding gun owners will. Get it?


Found where I was going with this and put it together wrong. If teachers had guns in class the moment they snapped just makes it that much easier. Even by revoking the ban on guns on school property.

Speaking of which, what state passed that guns can be carried on school grounds? Saw this one on fb from some gun-ho, arm the country "friend" of mine.

Quote:
If so how are you proposing the govt know when someone popped the last of the bubble wrap in their mind?


Read bolded. No need to comment on it as it does not apply. Treat it like a job application and put N/A if you just want to write bigger posts.
#228 Dec 18 2012 at 8:01 PM Rating: Good
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Do you get the fallacy of yours? They cease to be law abiding once they snap and go on a murder spree.


Oh, you. You're like an adorable 6 year old with Down's Syndrome explaining why god exists. Don't ever change.


That was a bad whoosh, even for gbaji. Jeez.
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#229 Dec 18 2012 at 9:05 PM Rating: Default
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Zymunn wrote:
Found where I was going with this and put it together wrong. If teachers had guns in class the moment they snapped just makes it that much easier. Even by revoking the ban on guns on school property.


That's a valid concern. But that's easily enough solved by the school district setting policy regarding that situation. I don't envision teachers having firearms on them while actually in a classroom teaching students. Not because I think teachers snapping and shooting their students is likely to occur at anywhere near the rate that mass shooters would do so, but because it would be far more likely for an unruly student to go for the gun and shoot someone.

Allowing faculty to have firearms on campus but not when not actively teaching class or otherwise interacting with students would be easy to do and relatively safe. They could be kept in various secure rooms (which there are a lot of on school campuses) out of reach of students, but potentially accessible in case of need. Point being that the specifics of how a school wants to handle this can be left to the school. But right now, it can't.

Quote:
Speaking of which, what state passed that guns can be carried on school grounds? Saw this one on fb from some gun-ho, arm the country "friend" of mine.


None. Well, some may have their own legislation, but the Gun Free School Zones Act is the federal law which imposes this restriction. So the states have no choice. The schools have no choice. It's a terrible and misguided law IMO. It basically takes the choice of how to manage gun violence in schools out of the hands of the states and into the hands of a federal government which seems more intent on bowing to misinformed knee jerk public reaction than to actually crafting laws that work.


What's really strange about the law is that actual mass shootings at schools had been on the decline for some time. The problem with guns in school was mostly gang related and involved specifically targeted people who happened to be at school, not random killings with the school being the chosen area (and to be fair most school shootings in the history of the US were of this nature). It was really only *after* the law was passed that we started seeing a noticeable uptick in the random target style mass shootings on school grounds. The law was presumably intended to allow police officers the ability to find and arrest people loitering around schools with guns (mostly dealing with gangs in the area), but it's of questionable value IMO. Sure, if adult gang members were menacing kids and carrying weapons that were otherwise legal (lots of states allow you to transport a firearm in a car without needing a special permit) I suppose you could keep them out. But that requires a specific effort on the part of police to spot potential violators and search them.

It just seems like by implementing a relatively weak solution to one problem, they created a much bigger one. Instead of allowing cities with problems with gangs in and around their schools to come up with their own solution, the federal government decided to implement a one-size-fits-all solution and force everyone to comply with it. But a solution that maybe makes sense in one area may not make any sense at all in another. Which is precisely the problem when you try to do things at the federal level.
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#230 Dec 18 2012 at 9:15 PM Rating: Good
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Zymunn wrote:
Speaking of which, what state passed that guns can be carried on school grounds? Saw this one on fb from some gun-ho, arm the country "friend" of mine.


Today the Michigan governor vetoed a bill that would let concealed carry in schools. But he brought up a concern he had about Michigan's Open Carry which makes it legal to openly carry a firearm into any place that isn't expressly forbidden, which apparently includes schools. So while people with CPL cannot carry a concealed firearm on a campus, they could openly carry it. He made sure to mention however that school super superintendent or principal has say in who/what they allow on the school campus.

http://troy.patch.com/articles/snyder-vetoes-bill-allowing-concealed-pistols-in-schools

Edit:
Oh, and it's the CPL that lets you openly carry, not just having the registered gun.

Edited, Dec 18th 2012 10:30pm by TirithRR
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#231 Dec 18 2012 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
but because it would be far more likely for an unruly student to go for the gun and shoot someone.


Crikey! The definition of 'unruly' must be completely different in the US classroom than the ones I've been used to. Unruly in my experience usually leads to detention or some such, rather than the possibility of mass murder using firearms.

Gbaji wrote:
What's really strange about the law is that actual mass shootings at schools had been on the decline for some time.


31 school shootings since Columbine.




Edited, Dec 19th 2012 3:36am by paulsol
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#232 Dec 19 2012 at 12:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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#233 Dec 19 2012 at 7:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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#234 Dec 19 2012 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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A healing shot to the face.


No, that's socialism.
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#235 Dec 19 2012 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

Do you get the fallacy of yours? They cease to be law abiding once they snap and go on a murder spree.


Dude, seriously? Smiley: oyvey

We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.

We could put armed guards at every school; then have someone attack the school bus instead. Or maybe give the school bus driver a gun, and the soccer coach, and the boy scout leader, and... Well you get the idea.

We could take away everyone's guns (irony), but that's not exactly popular and a little like doing surgery with a sledge hammer.

So we just learn to live with it?

I need a hug... Smiley: frown
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#236 Dec 19 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree" but you can provide adequate mental health care and reintegration for people who are diagnosed with mental health disorders which would help most of these people to work towards becoming a valuable member of society (again) instead of getting isolated from society.
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#237 Dec 19 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree" but you can provide adequate mental health care and reintegration for people who are diagnosed with mental health disorders which would help most of these people to work towards becoming a valuable member of society (again) instead of getting isolated from society.
I'm not sure how we do this, just afraid there's a long way to go over here before something like this is effective. There's still stigma and costs associated with the diagnosis, and no one can force you to show up for therapy.
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#238 Dec 19 2012 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree" but you can provide adequate mental health care and reintegration for people who are diagnosed with mental health disorders which would help most of these people to work towards becoming a valuable member of society (again) instead of getting isolated from society.

The anti-bullying campaign could help. I'd think kids that get bullied, teased, sidelined and ignored by their peers are at risk for ballistic behavior.
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#239 Dec 19 2012 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Now my wife wants me to get a gun.

Tell her you don't need the gun and if she persists punch her in the face and say "see!"

(don't actually do that second part)

Of course not, she *does* have a gun. All I have is a hatchet. Well, that I keep in the car. My assortment of wood axes, splitting mauls and sledgehammers would serve pretty well in the Zombpocalypse.
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#241 Dec 19 2012 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree"


We just need a few precogs and we're set.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#242 Dec 19 2012 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Hatchets are just as efficient as guns for killing people.

Depends on the range. I can only throw accurately at ~15ft. After that it becomes a WMD.
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#243 Dec 19 2012 at 12:41 PM Rating: Good
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There's a strong chance that this will upset the whole order of gun control sometime in the future. Interesting stuff, that budding personal 3D printing industry.

Edited, Dec 19th 2012 1:45pm by Eske
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#244 Dec 19 2012 at 12:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Personally, I think the real answer is addressing mental health issues. Look at Canada. They don't ban guns, but they don't have mass shootings every other year either. I personally think its because everyone there has access to a mental health professional and the means to pay for it (universal healthcare).


His Excellency Aethien wrote:
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree" but you can provide adequate mental health care and reintegration for people who are diagnosed with mental health disorders which would help most of these people to work towards becoming a valuable member of society (again) instead of getting isolated from society.


Both very good thoughts, but what is being swept under the rug in these instances is possibly the most important component of all of theses mass killings: the fact that these acts are overwhelmingly commited by men, who are also, incidentally, the least likely to admit they need\accept help (at least here in America).

Until we fix the problems in a society where males are discouraged from getting the emotional support and help they need, we'll continue to watch things like this happen.
#245 Dec 19 2012 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree" but you can provide adequate mental health care and reintegration for people who are diagnosed with mental health disorders which would help most of these people to work towards becoming a valuable member of society (again) instead of getting isolated from society.

The anti-bullying campaign could help. I'd think kids that get bullied, teased, sidelined and ignored by their peers are at risk for ballistic behavior.

I totally agree. Not to mention the increase in suicides we've had in the last couple years. When I'm a teacher I intend on keeping a strong eye out for bullying. It's time to stop shrugging it off like it's just a part of life.
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#246 Dec 19 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree" but you can provide adequate mental health care and reintegration for people who are diagnosed with mental health disorders which would help most of these people to work towards becoming a valuable member of society (again) instead of getting isolated from society.
I'm not sure how we do this, just afraid there's a long way to go over here before something like this is effective. There's still stigma and costs associated with the diagnosis, and no one can force you to show up for therapy.
Make housing available for those with mental illness, including 24/7 available help, mandatory therapy up to closed ward in extreme cases, limited amounts of free drugs for addicts so they don't go out stealing (and stay where they can get help), work/learn environments where people with a mental disorder can work and learn in an environment that is both accepting of them and that keeps in mind what they can and can't do. Just to name a few things that are possible.
Of course all of that does cost money but then again, imprisoning people costs money, people stealing to be able to pay for drugs costs money, people incapable of joining the workforce on their own and thus doomed to unemployment cost money etc etc.

BrownDuck wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
We could try and identify people before this happens. Improvement in mental health facilities? I suppose that's going to be hit and miss. Not like diagnosing this is anywhere near a perfect science. Feels a little like punishing people before they break the law.
You can't diagnose for "may go on a murder spree"


We just need a few precogs and we're set.
No problem.
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YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#247 Dec 19 2012 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Both very good thoughts, but what is being swept under the rug in these instances is possibly the most important component of all of theses mass killings: the fact that these acts are overwhelmingly commited by men, who are also, incidentally, the least likely to admit they need\accept help (at least here in America).

Until we fix the problems in a society where males are discouraged from getting the emotional support and help they need, we'll continue to watch things like this happen.


A few dead kids is a small price to pay to avoid a nation of pussies. Have you been to Belgium? Terrifying.
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#248 Dec 19 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've heard they have a king there, too. Probably because they don't have enough guns.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#249 Dec 19 2012 at 2:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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A swear word and a pointy stick and you can terrify the masses into submission. What's not to love?
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#250 Dec 19 2012 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I've heard they have a king there, too. Probably because they don't have enough guns.
Nah, it's because they have a lot of beer and a language in which just about anything you say sounds funny.
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Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#251 Dec 19 2012 at 2:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Alright. Then all's I got is the Injuns

Meh what's a few million dead when you give them casino liscenes 8 generations later. Omelet, eggs, amirite? Tough to qualify the millions of dead slaves as "just" discrimination, but whatever. Could we agree it was at least 3/5ths of a genocide?
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a whore. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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