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#102 Dec 17 2012 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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Deadgye wrote:
Bad study is bad.

As opposed to "I know of a time a nameless guy did a thing that made another nameless guy do a thing" anecdote.
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#103 Dec 17 2012 at 12:11 AM Rating: Excellent
That's interesting, because I too had a facebook friend post something about the Portland shooting. It claimed that some dude took out the shooter, and that was why only two people died. I didn't have time to look into before work today.
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#104 Dec 17 2012 at 12:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
That's interesting, because I too had a facebook friend post something about the Portland shooting. It claimed that some dude took out the shooter

Some dude with a gun did kill the shooter -- the shooter. With his own gun.

Only two people died because the shooter started by announcing himself, firing at the ceiling and alerting everyone, fired some more rounds quasi-randomly, had his weapon jam, got it working again and then killed himself. In short, he just did a really shitty job of what he was trying to do assuming he was trying to kill more people.

Edit: This story is some guy saying he pulled out a weapon. Despite not firing it, he credits himself as the reason the shooter went off downstairs and killed himself.
Quote:
Nick Meli is emotionally drained. The 22-year-old was at Clackamas Town Center with a friend and her baby when a masked man opened fire.
"I heard three shots and turned and looked at Casey and said, 'are you serious?,'" he said.
The friend and baby hit the floor. Meli, who has a concealed carry permit, positioned himself behind a pillar.
"He was working on his rifle," said Meli. "He kept pulling the charging handle and hitting the side."
The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.
"As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said.
Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.
"I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."
The gunman was dead, but not before taking two innocent lives with him and taking the innocence of everyone else.
"I don't ever want to see anyone that way ever," said Meli. "It just bothers me."



Edited, Dec 17th 2012 12:31am by Jophiel
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#105 Dec 17 2012 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Deadgye wrote:
Bad study is bad.

As opposed to "I know of a time a nameless guy did a thing that made another nameless guy do a thing" anecdote.

You and your making me go through my browser history. You don't know how much effort this actually takes. Still only anecdotal though.

http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

edit: gdi, that's what I get for not refreshing the thread.

Edited, Dec 17th 2012 1:52am by Deadgye
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#106 Dec 17 2012 at 1:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, he said he watched the guy the whole time from behind his cover. But all the reports say the shooter's gun jammed, he fixed it, then went downstairs and then shot himself. The article title says "confronts" but even Meli doesn't describe actually confronting him or even drawing attention to himself. While it's theoretically possible that the shooter was so worried that he went downstairs to go shoot himself, I'm thinking there's a whole lot of conjecture there. I'm not doubting that Meli had a gun or drew it. I'm certainly not convinced, however, that the shooter saw it and reacted to it in any significant way to quickly end the ordeal.

Also, the shooter fired off around sixty rounds during the event. Sixty. The reason only two people died wasn't because he saw supposedly some guy with a gun and was to worried he went downstairs and shot himself. The reason only two people died was a combination of him being a poor shot, him giving a lot of warning and him not really shooting to kill for a lot of those shots. Had he taken the element of surprise and aimed those sixty rounds at people instead of the architecture, there would have been a lot more than two dead. It's fortunate that he didn't.
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#107 Dec 17 2012 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
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A voice of reason among a sea of emotion and stupidity on both sides of the debate.

I support CHL and personal firearm ownership to no end, but I also agree that clips above a certain capacity and semi-auto rifles / shotguns are not necessary for any personal use imaginable.

Honestly though, I think background checks need to be more thorough. Create a federal handgun license (a la Illinois's FOID card) and establish a fee commensurate with a background check similar to the one given to those seeking top secret clearance. Existing background checks require little more a check against the FBI's NICS database and in some cases, a minimal waiting period.

The mother of the Newton shooter was clearly on the fringe of sanity (as are most doomsday preppers), and likely exposed her son to a warped view on the legitimate and proper use of her firearms. Combine that with mental health problems and it was a ticking time bomb from the start, but absent a criminal record or a reported mental health issue, neither would have made it on the list and either one could have obtained said weapons with little effort.
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#108 Dec 17 2012 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
And yet people go through the effort and expense of amassing firearms, ammo and accessories for these killing sprees rather than dropping $10 at Home Depot for a bomb making kit. Which would suggest that, for whatever reason, they're not especially capable of or interested in making bombs but shooting people with guns and bullets.

The whole "they would just use [X]" argument is a lazy one on several levels.

Edited, Dec 15th 2012 1:50pm by Jophiel


Like I said, it's a lot more exciting to actively shoot someone, rather than set up a bomb and waiting.

People who play Assassin's Creed might disagree with you.


But then I think they are really into that for the beaked hoodie.
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#109 Dec 17 2012 at 7:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I'm not sure she was prepared for "the worst", actually.


It's a bit like the government response to McVeigh that Joph quoted: exert irrational levels of control over a fear you can define, instead of getting to the root of your fear and seeing it for what it is. We all do it, but that doesn't make it a healthy response.
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#110 Dec 17 2012 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Should require training and annual qualifications for those civilians that want weapons.
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#111 Dec 17 2012 at 11:59 AM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Should require training and annual qualifications for those civilians that want weapons.

I think this is a requirement for concealed carry in new york, although the qualifications are 3/5 years instead of annually. Not sure if this is how it works for normal purchasing as well though. This topic is one of the ways I've been procrastinating studying for my finals so I've kept myself from properly researching everything since it'd take a decent amount of time. Been too busy studying for finals to look everything up.
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#112 Dec 17 2012 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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You also need a good enough reason to carry concealed in NYC, as the licensing officer can deny your permit, and it needs to be renewed every three years. I've got it because I do security escorts for sensitive equipment, which personally I find to be a pretty shoddy reason to be able to carry a pistol whenever and where ever I want hidden on my person, but there you have it.

Not just concealed though, I think any weapon ownership should require it, from hunters to collectors to law enforcement. It's stupid someone can basically walk into Walmart and pick up a rifle.
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#113 Dec 17 2012 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
I do security escorts for sensitive equipment,
Ooh-la-la...
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#114 Dec 17 2012 at 1:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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When I worked for an environmental company you were required to have a gun with you when going out to do field work in some areas (notably much of Alaska), as to have extra protection against wildlife and such. I'm plenty accepting of reasons like "the wolves are eating my sheep," and "I drive an armored car full of cash."

"Because freedom!" is a bit more of a stretch.
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#115 Dec 17 2012 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
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Gun control isn't about stopping people from killing, it's about limiting the damage when some nut decides to do so.

You'll save a few lives right off the bat because most people are squeamish, even among the nutjob crowd most people that would kill with a gun wouldn't be likely to kill with a knife/bat/crowbar, it's too intimate. Nor would most of them take the time to figure out how to build a bomb, among those who would take the time to work out a bomb most of them would fail to make anything particularly efficient.

In countries where assault rifles aren't readily available people just don't think about shooting up schools full of children, well, I'm sure they think about it but it's quickly discarded as unfeasible because the logistics of doing so are ridiculous. There's no glory factor in stopping to reload your 12 gauge every 3 rounds while everyone hops out the windows and some big janitor tackles you.

Organized crime can generally get the more efficient killing machines, most of those are coming out of the US because it's like buying chicklets down there, but organized crime really has no interest in killing masses of innocent people.

Most guns are just too **** efficient, easy to use, and unneccessary to be readily available to random Joes.
#116 Dec 17 2012 at 3:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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If there's one side of things that I'm interested in going forward, it's in architectural design for the schools. Sad that it's come to this, but the science of designing for choke points and means of egress is probably going to get a lot more attention now.

Edited, Dec 17th 2012 4:03pm by Eske
#117gbaji, Posted: Dec 17 2012 at 3:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'll repeat my earlier observation. Unless you can somehow completely repeal the 2nd amendment, those who wish to commit mass shootings will always be able to obtain the weapons with which to do so. The only rational and consistently proven method of preventing such mass shootings is if someone else is in the area with a weapon themselves. Yet, for some irrational emotional reason, we tend to actively ensure that the areas we least want a mass shooting to occur at those which are the easiest targets for mass shootings. Gun free zones don't prevent a mass shooter from entering the zone and shooting people. What they do is ensure that there's no one else there to even have a chance of stopping them.
#118 Dec 17 2012 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Just for those interested :
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In 1927, a single man's outbreak of violence in a small Michigan town took the lives of 45 people, including 38 children. The Bath School Disaster became the nation's deadliest killing spree at a school, and it still holds that distinction today.


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#119 Dec 17 2012 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
If there's one side of things that I'm interested in going forward, it's in architectural design for the schools. Sad that it's come to this, but the science of designing for choke points and means of egress is probably going to get a lot more attention now.

Edited, Dec 17th 2012 4:03pm by Eske
One of the difficulties of putting in choke points in a school is going to be fire codes. Have fun designing a public building that has choke points and is easily escapable in case of a fire.
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#120 Dec 17 2012 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Terrifyingspeed wrote:
Just for those interested :
Quote:
In 1927, a single man's outbreak of violence in a small Michigan town took the lives of 45 people, including 38 children. The Bath School Disaster became the nation's deadliest killing spree at a school, and it still holds that distinction today.

To which we responded by arming everyone else with sticks of dynamite so they could fight off other dynamite armed attackers. Right.
gbaji wrote:
I'm sure that someone else has pointed this out, but if someone prevents it from becoming a "mass shooting" then the data set doesn't tell us what you seem to think it does. They aren't mass shootings *because* someone with a firearm prevented them from becoming one. Here's a site with a short list of potential mass shootings prevented by the use of a firearm.

The article is clear about its criteria and why it selected them. Most accounts of "stopped a mass shooter" I've seen rely on very circumstantial evidence that the a "mass shooting" was in fact stopped. Often they are something like "Shooter shot two people and was then shot leaving the location when he might have gone on to kill more people". Or the shooter had a direct group of targets (revenge, etc) and was killed after the direct altercation with them when there is no indication that the shooter intended to start killing random people.

Also, quite a few of the items off that list involve off-duty or former law enforcement. At least a third; I didn't read the linked articles to every one and some don't mention on your collected page that the CCW person was law enforcement.

The supposed correlation in the second article is a joke. The guy shot up the WI temple because of its cultural implications, not because he thought "Sikh temples don't have guns!" This last guy had a connection to the school and likely went there because it was filled with children. We don't know why the CO shooter picked that specific theater.

Edited, Dec 17th 2012 3:58pm by Jophiel
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#121 Dec 17 2012 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'll repeat my earlier observation. Unless you can somehow completely repeal the 2nd amendment, those who wish to commit mass shootings will always be able to obtain the weapons with which to do so. The only rational and consistently proven method of preventing such mass shootings is if someone else is in the area with a weapon themselves. Yet, for some irrational emotional reason, we tend to actively ensure that the areas we least want a mass shooting to occur at those which are the easiest targets for mass shootings. Gun free zones don't prevent a mass shooter from entering the zone and shooting people. What they do is ensure that there's no one else there to even have a chance of stopping them.

So if everybody had a gun, they wouldn't attempt it? Or do you mean that everybody without a gun would quietly calm down and not panic, stay out of the way of the the guys shooting, and helpfully identify who is the agressor and who is protecting them so the police or anybody else don't shoot the wrong guy?
#122 Dec 17 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm imagining a sign in front of the school that reads: "Security personnel may be armed," and I'm not sure if that's reassuring or terrifying.
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#123 Dec 17 2012 at 4:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not sure what these theoretical zones are, that are deterring mass killers from choosing them because they are known to have armed inhabitants. Shooting ranges? Gun convention halls? Police stations? Fort Knox? The killers choose sites like malls and schools because there are large numbers of people in an enclosed space, and/or they know it'll get a lot of media attention, and/or they are copying previous massacres (subconsciously or otherwise). Number of killers who were going to commit a mass killing in a gun store, only to be deterred by the fact that the owner would be armed: zero.


Edited, Dec 17th 2012 4:39pm by trickybeck
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#124 Dec 17 2012 at 5:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think some mosque needs to publicly start stockpiling assault rifles. You know, to stop mass shootings. Should get a lot of GOP support.
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#125 Dec 17 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'm sure that someone else has pointed this out, but if someone prevents it from becoming a "mass shooting" then the data set doesn't tell us what you seem to think it does. They aren't mass shootings *because* someone with a firearm prevented them from becoming one. Here's a site with a short list of potential mass shootings prevented by the use of a firearm.

The article is clear about its criteria and why it selected them. Most accounts of "stopped a mass shooter" I've seen rely on very circumstantial evidence that the a "mass shooting" was in fact stopped.


That's meaningless though. It only becomes a "mass shooting" if it *isn't* stopped. I think it's quite reasonable to assume that if even a single member of the school staff at Sandy Hook Elementary had been armed, that at least some lives would have been saved, and quite possibly most or all of the children given the order of events.

Quote:
Often they are something like "Shooter shot two people and was then shot leaving the location when he might have gone on to kill more people". Or the shooter had a direct group of targets (revenge, etc) and was killed after the direct altercation with them when there is no indication that the shooter intended to start killing random people.


Except for the cases which don't. Not all shootings are identical Joph. You're contriving reasons why someone with a firearm will magically be less able to prevent a mass shooting than someone without. So teachers dying while vainly trying to shield children with their bodies is heroic and reasonable to accept, but the same teachers would never have the courage to shoot the armed assailant? That seems a bit unlikely to me.

Quote:
Also, quite a few of the items off that list involve off-duty or former law enforcement. At least a third; I didn't read the linked articles to every one and some don't mention on your collected page that the CCW person was law enforcement.


Are you aware of how many off duty/former law enforcement and military there are running around our country? I'm not sure how this magically becomes a negative. At best, you make a great case for further loosening restrictions on CCW permits. You get that you're basically arguing that it wouldn't be effective because not enough people have them, right?

Quote:
The supposed correlation in the second article is a joke. The guy shot up the WI temple because of its cultural implications, not because he thought "Sikh temples don't have guns!"


So? Correlations need not be 100% to have value.

Quote:
This last guy had a connection to the school and likely went there because it was filled with children.


So? Doesn't change the fact that if schools were not gun-free zones, someone might have been there to stop him before he killed 20 kids.

Quote:
We don't know why the CO shooter picked that specific theater.


And yet, he also followed the same pattern that the author was talking about. Is it perfect? No. Is it a worthwhile correlation to point out and maybe take into account? Absolutely.


I'll point out again though that a shooting event only becomes a "mass shooting" if the shooter intends it to be a mass shooting and no one stops them. There's a massive selection bias in your position because we only label something a mass shooting based on the number of people actually shot and killed. We are thus automatically excluding all cases where someone spotted a potential mass shooting and interrupted it before it became a mass shooting in the first place. We're also only seeing the locations where mass shootings actually occur, and not all the locations they might have occurred at if conditions had been different. If every single school had several staff members who had weapons on campus, might someone who wanted to kill a lot of children avoid going to a school to do so? Might that person even decide on a different type of target, or even a different act in order to make his violent statement?

We can't know for sure all the possible alternatives which might happen. But we can say that right now we've made schools incredibly easy targets for people who decide to use a mass shooting to make some kind of statement. And that's the point being made by this.
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#126 Dec 17 2012 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Is gbaji seriously advocating guns in elementary schools...?
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