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#602 Oct 22 2012 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
There are plenty of other groups that have also gone through struggles, i.e the aboriginals, initial European immigrants, Mexican Americans, Japanese Americans during WWII, women,etc. What makes the Black civil right movement any more like homosexual movements than the ones mentioned? The answer? Nothing.

Perhaps instead of asking what makes the "black civil right" struggle like it and deciding it's not special enough to compare, you can just ask what makes it like the "civil rights" struggle.
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#603 Oct 22 2012 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
Spoonless wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Requiring slavery as a pre-condition is taking an extremely narrow view of civil rights in the United States.
I'm part Irish and demand reparations!


What you would get in alcohol discounts the government would make up with sales tax increases.
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#604 Oct 22 2012 at 6:55 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
There are plenty of other groups that have also gone through struggles, i.e the aboriginals, initial European immigrants, Mexican Americans, Japanese Americans during WWII, women,etc. What makes the Black civil right movement any more like homosexual movements than the ones mentioned? The answer? Nothing.

Perhaps instead of asking what makes the "black civil right" struggle like it and deciding it's not special enough to compare, you can just ask what makes it like the "civil rights" struggle.


That would elude my point. I'm pointing out that the only similarities between the Black civil rights and the homosexual civil rights are common among ALL civil right movements and struggles. So, therefore it would be silly to make a comparison of two things based on common factors within the subgroup.
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#605 Oct 22 2012 at 7:05 PM Rating: Good
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edit... whoops...

Edited, Oct 23rd 2012 3:05am by Aethien
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#606 Oct 22 2012 at 9:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, here's the thing Alma (and others) - I am white. I was once married to a black man. That was my choice. My husband now is white. I was able to marry the man I wanted because the law no longer forbids it. Right now, gay people can't marry the people they want to marry. That would be like me being forced to marry a white man back in the 80's when I clearly was in love with and wanted to marry a black man.

yes I've never brought this up before. Yes, my oldest son is mixed. He considers himself black.
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#607 Oct 22 2012 at 9:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
yes I've never brought this up before. Yes, my oldest son is mixed. He considers himself black.

And that little boy grew up to be... Barack Hussain Obama.

And now you know the rest of the story.
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#608 Oct 22 2012 at 9:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
yes I've never brought this up before. Yes, my oldest son is mixed. He considers himself black.

And that little boy grew up to be... Barack Hussain Obama.

And now you know the rest of the story.

Smiley: thumbsup
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#609 Oct 22 2012 at 11:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
S_Monkey wrote:
I was not in any denigrating the plight of the ginger, merely pointing out that, you know, a homosexual can marry someone of the opposite sex and still be a homosexual.


This is true.

S_Monkey wrote:
Just like if someone who is black marries someone who is white is still black.


Completely unrelated, but is still true. One of the primary arguments against interracial marriages were based on children, something that is still very blatant in East Asia today. Again, no comparison.

S_Monkey wrote:
See, we agree. None of these people has any control over that particular trait that we are focusing on, was my point.


Wrong. Black people can't hide behind their skin color. Anyone can suppress their sexuality, live a lie and act against their feelings. The ability to do so is "control". Just like how the average man controls his hormones when a woman who he finds sexually appealing is near him. Would you excuse a rapist for "not being able to control his feelings"?

S_Monkey wrote:
And the fact that you had become a little more enlightened by pointing this out in your previous post, that was also part of my point.


You never explained how a comparison of a red head is any more accurate or inaccurate than any of the other groups.

S_Monkey wrote:
You really aren't very good at coherent arguments or reading comprehension, are you?

Smiley: grinYou must have selective reading.


I should have known better than to even try. /sigh

I guess good try. If, you know, the goal was to completely miss the point
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#610 Oct 23 2012 at 12:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Alma wrote:
That would elude my point. I'm pointing out that the only similarities between the Black civil rights and the homosexual civil rights are common among ALL civil right movements and struggles.


So, why do you think, despite the similarities between gay rights & civil rights arguments, that the arguments against gay rights are justified but not the arguments against civil rights?

Be specific. Bonus points for complete thoughts & sentences.
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#611 Oct 23 2012 at 5:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Because only BLACK civil rights count. And no one is allowed to talk about blacks when discussing civil rights because then it's BLACK civil rights.
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#612 Oct 23 2012 at 5:38 AM Rating: Default
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Nadenu wrote:
Ok, here's the thing Alma (and others) - I am white. I was once married to a black man. That was my choice. My husband now is white. I was able to marry the man I wanted because the law no longer forbids it. Right now, gay people can't marry the people they want to marry. That would be like me being forced to marry a white man back in the 80's when I clearly was in love with and wanted to marry a black man.

yes I've never brought this up before. Yes, my oldest son is mixed. He considers himself black.


Once again. Just because football has a ball and tennis has a ball, doesn't make both sports similar even though they are both sports. Even though they are two sports, they have distinct differences. Same applies here, both are civil rights, but they both have distinct differences.

You can't say "well homosexuals were discriminated against the law so it's the same as trail of tears" or "Since we allow women to work, two men should be able to marry" Those are two completely different struggles based on two completely different forms of discrimination.

S_Monkey wrote:
I should have known better than to even try. /sigh

I guess good try. If, you know, the goal was to completely miss the point


You never explained how a comparison of a red head is any more accurate or inaccurate than any of the other groups.

Pretty weak cop out. Clearly you're just saying that to avoid answering questions.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2012 1:40pm by Almalieque
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#613 Oct 23 2012 at 5:49 AM Rating: Good
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Alma wrote:

Pretty weak cop out. Clearly you're just saying that to avoid answering questions.



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#614 Oct 23 2012 at 6:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel
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Almalieque wrote:
You can't say "well homosexuals were discriminated against the law so it's the same as trail of tears" or "Since we allow women to work, two men should be able to marry" Those are two completely different struggles based on two completely different forms of discrimination.

Are you going out of your way to produce the worst possible examples?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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#615 Oct 23 2012 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
Spoonless wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Requiring slavery as a pre-condition is taking an extremely narrow view of civil rights in the United States.
I'm part Irish and demand reparations!
What you would get in alcohol discounts the government would make up with sales tax increases.
And potatoes.
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#616Almalieque, Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 1:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I don't have to, comparing the ability to marry someone of the same sex vs the ability to vote, to legally be a person, use public transportation, public facilities, equal education, slavery, house ownership, etc. is already a pretty bad example.
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#617 Oct 23 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel
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Almalieque wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You can't say "well homosexuals were discriminated against the law so it's the same as trail of tears" or "Since we allow women to work, two men should be able to marry" Those are two completely different struggles based on two completely different forms of discrimination.
Are you going out of your way to produce the worst possible examples?
I don't have to, comparing the ability to marry someone of the same sex vs the ability to vote, to legally be a person, use public transportation, public facilities, equal education, slavery, house ownership, etc. is already a pretty bad example.

I'd agree that someone comparing SSM to the right to vote is a bad example. Especially since comparing it to miscegenation laws is a far, far superior example.

On the other hand, comparing the lack of legislation protecting against workplace hiring discrimination on the basis of sexuality would compare wonderfully to workplace discrimination laws regarding minorities or women. Likewise for, say, housing rental.

Edited, Oct 23rd 2012 2:27pm by Jophiel
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#618Almalieque, Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 2:15 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) That would depend on the discrimination. People pretend that we don't legally discriminate against sex and skin color when hiring people, but we do. We went over this already. It depends on the situation. Telling someone that they can't work at Mc Donalds because she's a "white girl" would be considered wrongfully discrimination. Telling a white girl that she can't work at a gay man's strip club as a stripper is far much more debatable.
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#619 Oct 23 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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#620 Oct 23 2012 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Yet, still far far from being accurate.

Not really, no. Not identical (since nothing would be except the exact same situation) but certainly very closely related. In fact, findings from previous miscegenation trials are often cited in SSM court cases and findings. Very few mentions of the Trail of Tears or slavery, though.

Quote:
That would depend on the discrimination.

Not really, no. In broad terms, the Civil Rights Act protects certain classes of people from hiring discrimination. Homosexuals are not such a class. Comparing the struggle to make them a protected class is directly analogous.
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#621 Oct 23 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Have we posted the preacher video for Alma yet?
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#622Almalieque, Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 3:34 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) OF course, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. People use miscegenation as a tactic to win their argument. As I said, homosexual supporters and religious people are the two biggest groups of hypocrisy that I know. The goal is to compare what they want to something recent that the nation agrees with, which in this case is black civil rights. If you can make the comparison between SSM and Miscegenation laws, then by default you must treat both the same.
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#623 Oct 23 2012 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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The fact that the United States judicial system has repeatedly found miscegenation to be a viable and legitimate precedent when discussing SSM and has not found the same for your other examples.

The connection is the legal status quo. If you want to convince people it shouldn't be, that's your job.
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#624Almalieque, Posted: Oct 23 2012 at 4:42 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You mean the same organization that allowed it in the first place?
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#625 Oct 23 2012 at 5:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Every once in a while, I read like 2 posts from this thread, and I still have no idea what the overall point of it is.
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#626 Oct 23 2012 at 5:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
You mean the same organization that allowed it in the first place?

Yup. And the same organization that later changed it and the same organization that will likely allow for SSM sooner rather than later.

Quote:
This nation is built up on people by people on what the people believe is right at the time. Our history alone debunks your assertion that judicial system has some omniscient benign view on the world.

Well, thanks for missing the point, anyway Smiley: laugh
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