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#102 Mar 05 2012 at 9:45 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And I fail to see how providing health care for all of your citizens in any way impedes liberty.


Then you fail at many things I guess. Aren't we having a discussion about health care mandates in this thread? How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?

It's like you use the word "liberty" but have no clue what it means.
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#103 Mar 05 2012 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
b) What the **** does Liberty even mean to you if it doesn't include the basics required to live a happy and healthy life? I mean seriously. If you think that "Liberty" doesn't include clean water and breathable air - what good is it?


It does not "include" those things at all. In the same way that food does not include air, and poetry does not include dog.


You need food, water, and clear air to live. In fact, I think a lack of breathable air could kill you faster than lack of food or water. All three are necessary components of life, and therefore linked more intricately to our survival than poetry and dog. (though arguments could be made for both of those items being necessary in our development as a species, neither are as important to our immediate survival. As in, if your heat source degenerates and starts spewing carbon monoxide into your house as you sleep tonight, you don't wake up)
#104 Mar 05 2012 at 9:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Way to avoid the point, oligarch.
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#105 Mar 05 2012 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:

I believe in a balanced approach that takes into account that cost of liberty. It's not all or nothing to me. I know that many people seem to want to frame it that way, but that's just not the case.


Right. Make a list of requirements for a safe, stable and prosperous society. List it from, say "not getting blown up" to "free candy for everyone". Think of a slide rule and liberty is the sliding red bar. If "liberty" is at one extreme end of the slide rule you are doing it wrong.

Do you understand now?


Of course. But what part of my saying I prefer a balanced approach makes you think I want the bar set to one extreme.

Do you understand that I believe that "free health care" is far closer to the "free candy for everyone" side than the "not getting blown up" side? I would argue that it's the folks pushing for free health care who are pushing an unreasonably extreme position for your hypothetical slide rule.


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BTW, there is no "right" to not being taxed at a higher rate.


Of course there is.

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There is no "liberty" in lower taxes.


Of course there is. Liberty is the state of not being subject to the authority of another. Period. To any degree that you are subject to anyone else's authority, your liberty is being infringed. The problem is that you still want to think in all-or-nothing terms. Something either infringes liberty and is thus completely wrong, or something does not and is completely ok. Because of this, you re-interpret liberty itself so as to pretend that our current state is not one of infringement.

The very act of living in a society with others infringes one's liberty. The point isn't to think we should live in absolute liberty, but to be aware of the need to minimize the degree to which our liberty is infringed. You pursue an impossible standard, and instead of realizing it, you redefine things so you can pretend that you are meeting it.

That's dangerous because it leads you to think that those things you just wrote don't infringe liberty. Of course they do.

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It's taxation without representation that is a violation of your liberty. You have representation.


That's the reason we broke off from England. Taxation without representation means that the infringement of liberty is "worse". It does not cease to exist just because you are represented. How the **** do you people not know this?


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On a related note, please prove your rise from "sleeping in my car because I was that poor" to your current state, because I still don't believe that fairy tale.


I'm my own primary source. Smiley: schooled

Edited, Mar 5th 2012 7:57pm by gbaji
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#106 Mar 05 2012 at 10:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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No, really. Prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that your sob story of being a marginalized poor boy who made good despite your family being complete ************ is real.

Short of that, we all have no choice but to beleve you are the product of an upper class family.

Which, in case you missed the subtelty, makes you a priveledged douche.
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Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#107 Mar 05 2012 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
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bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
BTW, there is no "right" to not being taxed at a higher rate.


Of course there is.
Cite, plz

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Last week, I saw a guy with an eyepatch and a gold monocle and pointed him out to Flea as one of the most awesome things I've seen, ever. If I had an eyepatch and a gold monocle, I'd always dress up as Mr. Peanut but with a hook hand and a parrot.
#108 Mar 05 2012 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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So access to clean air and water/food isn't an intricate part of liberty, but not paying taxes is a right?

Are you fucking kidding me?

[EDIT]
Quote:
I'm my own primary source.


No, you're a moron. And memoir is never considered a reliable historical source of information unless the majority of its information can be independently verified.

Which would be why they are asking for proof.

Dumbass.

Edited, Mar 6th 2012 12:53am by idiggory
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#109 Mar 06 2012 at 4:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Defence, Healthcare, Education, Subsistance Welfare to those who cannot work or are out of work and provenly jobseeking (the means to buy food, water and shelter). They are the fundamental group foundations of a civilised society.


Wrong. Those are the foundations of a socialist society. And socialists have conveniently labeled their form of government "civilized", but it does not make it so.

The key word you're missing (even though you spoke of "rights" earlier) is: Liberty. That's the more important thing here. A society in which the citizens have as much liberty as possible will be a better society in every way to one which calls civilized the act of empowering its government to buy the good will of the people at the expense of their own liberty.
The liberty to die because healthcare is so expensive that you can't afford it, knowing that half the people in your country don't give a rats *** about your life if it might mean they'd have to indirectly pay for your healthcare (even if it would likely mean that they're cheaper off themselves)



idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And I fail to see how providing health care for all of your citizens in any way impedes liberty.

idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
So access to clean air and water/food isn't an intricate part of liberty, but not paying taxes is a right?

Are you fucking kidding me?

The only liberty that counts for Gbaji is financial, any and all taxes are equal to an attack on his liberty.
The sliding scale Bijou talked about looks a little different to Gbaji, for him paying as little taxes as possible is smack dab in the middle and things like healthcare are on the far left side.
What exactly makes up the far right side of his scale I don't know.


Personally, I think it's a governments duty to protect it's citizens from harm and and to try and create an environment in which people can make the most of themselves.
Which for me includes a defense force but also healthcare and a financial safety net so that instead of people having to live in their car or the gutter, they'll have a roof over their head and the help they need to get (back) to being a contributing member of society.
Of course, for Gbaji, this ideal equals a terrifying nightmare because of the few people who are abusing this system. Sure there are people abusing the system, but I'd rather have it available for everyone and be abused on a small scale rather than not having it at all.
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#110 Mar 06 2012 at 7:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Liberty in the end is all about choice.

Things that allow you more options, give you more choice.

Social programs don't always create a net decrease in liberty, typically they generate a larger field of choices for many at the expense of limiting the choice for some. It's not the perfect dichotomy Gbaji is trying to draw, where any central command & control decreases net liberty. It's also not true that central command & control necessarily increases liberty. Most social programs increase the liberty of those who would otherwise be highly limited in their choices, and thus easily exploitable, which would further limit their choices. This does come at the expense of some of the liberty among those who already have quite a lot of choices, although they will still have the means to make most of the choices they want, and have the ease of freedom of movement to places where these social constructs do not apply, thus only limiting their choice should they choose to limit it in exchange for whatever benefits or perceived benefits the region has to offer.

Edited, Mar 6th 2012 8:39am by Timelordwho
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#111 Mar 06 2012 at 8:40 AM Rating: Excellent
For Gbaji the man with the most liberty is one who lives in a cave and never sees anyone else.
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#112 Mar 06 2012 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
And I fail to see how providing health care for all of your citizens in any way impedes liberty.


Then you fail at many things I guess. Aren't we having a discussion about health care mandates in this thread? How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?

It's like you use the word "liberty" but have no clue what it means.
Liberty as you write about it is an illusion. We're not free. Anything we do or don't do ultimately impacts someone else, impinging on their freedoms.

If we don't insure that all the citizens of our country are receiving adequate healthcare how can the government ever hope to provide you with the freedom from communicable disease, or the freedom to choose affordable healthcare for yourself and your family?




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#113 Mar 06 2012 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Technogeek wrote:
Gbaji only believes in corporate socialism. Gotta have those fat oil subsidies!

Why do oil companies even need subsidies? The top oil companies made $24Billion in profits last year.

What exactly do they need $4billion in subsidies for?

With regard to liberty, asked gbaji several times if people's liberty is being taken away when they have to pay taxes towards wars they want no part in. Apparently that's not the same thing as people not wanting to pay for healthcare, though.


Also, universal healthcare works out on average per person to be cheaper than private insurance. That doesn't matter though, because the people not paying much now might have to pay slightly more, **** those people with pre-existing medical conditions! Selfish bastards the lot of them!

Edited, Mar 6th 2012 11:56am by Nilatai
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#114 Mar 06 2012 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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Pregnancy is a pre-existing medical condition by US law.

True story.

My sister couldn't go to the doctor for the first 2-3 months she was pregnant, because they wouldn't have had insurance until that point. If she went, she risked losing out on the chance for them to pay ANY of her bills. And she still got slammed with 5-10k in hospital bills for the delivery.
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#115 Mar 06 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.
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#116 Mar 06 2012 at 1:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.


That's only part of it. Most people I hear complain about taxes also complain about lack of things taxes bring. Like being annoyed if there's a pothole in the road, or their streets don't get plowed fast enough after it snows.

Public services require public funds. Most people seem to believe that they pay taxes just so a corrupt politician can pocket the money.
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#117 Mar 06 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.


That's only part of it. Most people I hear complain about taxes also complain about lack of things taxes bring. Like being annoyed if there's a pothole in the road, or their streets don't get plowed fast enough after it snows.

Public services require public funds. Most people seem to believe that they pay taxes just so a corrupt politician can pocket the money.

I wish I could pay more taxes to get more nice things, like a public transportation system that was worth a ****.
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#118 Mar 06 2012 at 2:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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cidbahamut wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.


That's only part of it. Most people I hear complain about taxes also complain about lack of things taxes bring. Like being annoyed if there's a pothole in the road, or their streets don't get plowed fast enough after it snows.

Public services require public funds. Most people seem to believe that they pay taxes just so a corrupt politician can pocket the money.

I wish I could pay more taxes to get more nice things, like a public transportation system that was worth a ****.


We got one. Smiley: grin

Unfortunately there was just an article in the local paper about how its expansion is leading to more potholes. Seems you can't win sometimes. Smiley: frown
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#119 Mar 06 2012 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.


That's only part of it. Most people I hear complain about taxes also complain about lack of things taxes bring. Like being annoyed if there's a pothole in the road, or their streets don't get plowed fast enough after it snows.

Public services require public funds. Most people seem to believe that they pay taxes just so a corrupt politician can pocket the money.

I wish I could pay more taxes to get more nice things, like a public transportation system that was worth a ****.
Public transportation is never worth a ****.
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#120 Mar 06 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

Don't you agree?


No, I don't agree. I don't accept your definition of "liberty" being the freedom to die from drinking polluted water or to choke to death on poisoned air.

It boggles my mind that you see laws that protect the health and happiness of people as being an affront to liberty. Liberty is worthless without life - and life isn't possible without food, water and air. Without things like healthcare and shelter one can live for sometime, but a miserable existence which is bound to be cut short.

I suggest that if you think that laws that protect access to the basics of life are an affront to liberty that you charter a boat and get them to drop you off on a barren rock in the middle of the pacific. Then you can live in perfect "liberty" for about three days or so, when you die from lack of water.
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#121 Mar 06 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.


That's only part of it. Most people I hear complain about taxes also complain about lack of things taxes bring. Like being annoyed if there's a pothole in the road, or their streets don't get plowed fast enough after it snows.

Public services require public funds. Most people seem to believe that they pay taxes just so a corrupt politician can pocket the money.

I wish I could pay more taxes to get more nice things, like a public transportation system that was worth a ****.
Public transportation is never worth a ****.

Why must you destroy my hopes and dreams?
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#122 Mar 06 2012 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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cidbahamut wrote:
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
cidbahamut wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
gbaji wrote:
How can you fail to see that the government mandating that people pay for things they don't want to pay for impedes their liberty?.
I agree completely, but always find it amusing how selective you are when discussing what the government should be able to mandate you pay for, like how paying for a military to gallivant around the world killing other people is ok but paying for the well being of your fellow citizens is debilitating.


That's only part of it. Most people I hear complain about taxes also complain about lack of things taxes bring. Like being annoyed if there's a pothole in the road, or their streets don't get plowed fast enough after it snows.

Public services require public funds. Most people seem to believe that they pay taxes just so a corrupt politician can pocket the money.

I wish I could pay more taxes to get more nice things, like a public transportation system that was worth a ****.
Public transportation is never worth a ****.

Why must you destroy my hopes and dreams?


Take off the tinfoil hat man. Can't you see that Public Transit is obviously a government control for increasing taxes in the guise of fixing potholes that they create. Not only that they run non stop and are fueled on the tax payers pocket. (as well as polluting our air which is a direct violation of our liberties.) More over its a social concept which socialist governments (in the guise of democracies.) designed to control tax increases, need more money tell people its for buses its all right. If you can't see that then I don't know what to say. Open your eyes, you are being duped. Its a filthy liberal conspiracy that public transit actually costs, or makes the money they claim it does.









Edited, Mar 6th 2012 4:37pm by rdmcandie
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#123 Mar 06 2012 at 3:45 PM Rating: Good
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But I like riding the metro instead of driving.
=(
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#124 Mar 06 2012 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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The problem with states' rights is that we have places that do public transportation well, and others that do it poorly. If we just nationalized these things everyone would benefit.
#125 Mar 06 2012 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Public transportation needs are totally different from place to place, it makes no sense to centralize it.
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#126 Mar 06 2012 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Guenny wrote:
The problem with states' rights is that we have places that do public transportation well, and others that do it poorly. If we just nationalized these things everyone would benefit.

That's the other part of the problem, public transportation systems rarely (if ever) connect with each other. I would love to be able to hop on the metro by my house and just keep taking it across the country, or even just to a few different towns, but the coverage is so sparse that unless where you're headed is right next to a stop you're better off just driving there in your car.

I think we've really shot ourselves in the foot as far infrastructure is concerned. It's personal automobiles or GTFO and it's too firmly entrenched now to make any meaningful improvements.
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I think RDM's neurotic omniscience is sooooooo worth including in any alliance.
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