Atheism or agnosticism? :: World of Warcraft

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#252 May 01 2011 at 5:50 PM Rating: Good

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

Well that's what happens when you base your argument on personal emotions.

Well, it really isn't "cross-thread" since your comment wasn't relevant to the actual topic, but just a random comment towards me.

Kind of cross thread as the comment wasn't in this one. Wasn't basing anything on anything. I was expressing what I expected your argument to be, based upon your views on other crap. Can't see it being that far off, but that's neither here nor there.

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#253 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 6:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well that's definitely a fallacy on your logical thinking.

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#254 May 01 2011 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good

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this thread is so ******* gay.

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#255 May 01 2011 at 7:16 PM Rating: Excellent

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

Well that's definitely a fallacy on your logical thinking.

Anyways, as I'm sure you're at least slightly interested, my argument against abortion has nothing to do with the murder of innocent children. My argument is based on the belief that the responsibility of a child should be predetermined with exceptions on a case by case scenario. In other words, a woman can't claim that "It's my body, you can't tell me what to do, I'm having the abortion", then 5 minutes later change her mind and tell the baby's daddy that he has to support the child. If it's HER body and she want's TOTAL control, then she should also deal with the responsibility of the freedom to make that decision either way.

Either 1 of the 2 things should happen IMO.

1) Give women total freedom and responsibility for children, defaulting men the opportunity to support if desired.

0r

2) Make both men and women equally responsible, only allowing abortions on a case by case scenario.

Since option 1 is totally stupid, as it'll probably increase the number of dead-beat dads, I'll go with option 2.

I'm open to other solutions, but that's the only two I can think of.

How about, leave things how they are? It is a woman's right to choose what happens in her body. While I do not think that people should use abortions as birth control, setting up a system in which a woman would/could have to carry to term an unwanted child is horrendous to say the least.

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#256 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 7:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) And forcing a guy to support an unwanted child isn't horrendous? How are you going to tell me that it's "My body and I can do whatever I want" without any concern of me, but then want me to support you. It's your choice to keep the baby, so YOU support YOUR decision. YOU made it. Why should a man have to be responsible if the woman doesn't have to be?

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#257 May 01 2011 at 7:46 PM Rating: Excellent

Kirby

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Almalieque wrote:

It's either that or make both women and men responsible. Giving one an opportunity to "abort" responsibility while forcing the other to uphold responsibility is not right.

Exactly.

Are you saying women should just be forced to have babies so that men can say they are treated fairly? ******* retarded.

The more rational idea would be for couples to decide this **** on their own, not be forced into anything from a 3rd party (for instance, child support payments).

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#258 May 01 2011 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

And forcing a guy to support an unwanted child isn't horrendous? How are you going to tell me that it's "My body and I can do whatever I want" without any concern of me, but then want me to support you. It's your choice to keep the baby, so YOU support YOUR decision. YOU made it. Why should a man have to be responsible if the woman doesn't have to be?

If you don't want the kid, wrap your ****. Simple, really. Or, y'know, only have sex with someone you know, trust and have come to an agreement about contraception with.

Almalieque wrote:

For a group of people who is always fighting for "rights" and "equality", I would imagine that you would support men having the same opportunities as women.

Babble.

Almalieque wrote:

It's either that or make both women and men responsible. Giving one an opportunity to "abort" responsibility while forcing the other to uphold responsibility is not right.

As far as I am aware, you don't have to pay child support unless you were once married, correct? If you're going to have unprotected sex with some girl who you think is low enough to carry a child to term to gain extra income that's on you.

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#259 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 8:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Exactly..

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#260 May 01 2011 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent

stupidmonkey

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Nilatai wrote:

As far as I am aware, you don't have to pay child support unless you were once married, correct?

You are confusing Child Support with Alimony

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#261 May 01 2011 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

Nilatai wrote:

If you don't want the kid, wrap your ****. Simple, really. Or, y'know, only have sex with someone you know, trust and have come to an agreement about contraception with.

Exactly. So, there really isn't any real excuse for an abortion except for the occasions of rape and or failed contraceptives.

Why would there need to be an excuse for abortion? It's legal, and it should stay legal. I said I'm against it as a form of contraception, but I'll be damned if I see laws put in place that limit the access to abortion for any woman, for any circumstances beyond those that are currently in place.

Almalieque wrote:

Nilatai wrote:

As far as I am aware, you don't have to pay child support unless you were once married, correct?

I don't think marriage has anything to do with child support.

Probably not. Irrelevant to the discussion on abortion in any case.

Almalieque wrote:

Nilatai wrote:

If you're going to have unprotected sex with some girl who you think is low enough to carry a child to term to gain extra income that's on you.

Exactly..

Exactly. So the guy shouldn't have any right to demand she get an abortion if she doesn't want one. Equally, the guy shouldn't have any right to demand she carry the child full term. Her body, her choice. Sorry, but the woman's rights trump those of the foetus. After 24 weeks, that's a different matter.

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#262 May 01 2011 at 8:22 PM Rating: Good

Nilatai

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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:

Nilatai wrote:

As far as I am aware, you don't have to pay child support unless you were once married, correct?

You are confusing Child Support with Alimony

That's the badger, my mistake. UK time and all that.

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#263 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 8:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As long as the man is completely out of the equation, i.e. no child support. It's your body, your choice, so you deal with the consequences that you chose. Don't drag anyone else along. If you can't financially afford the child, then you shouldn't get pregnant and or have the child.

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#264 May 01 2011 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

Excuse, reason or rational. I don't care for what word you use. If two people openly have sex with no protection, you can't (or at least shouldn't) mandate one person to be responsible while allowing the other the opportunity to be responsible. Either allow the couple to make their own decision, as Kirby mentioned, or mandate equal responsibility. Any other solution is hypocritical. Unless you are able to present another solution.

Where did I say the couple couldn't make their own decision?

Almalieque wrote:

Wait? So, first you accuse my argument (without even knowing it) as based on emotions, then when I tell you my argument (which isn't based on emotions) you say it's "irrelevant"? WRONG! That's my argument. A man should be held to the same level of responsibility as the woman. If she is able to abort the child, then the man shouldn't be forced to pay child support. If the woman is forced to carry out births, then the man should be forced to pay child support. That "irrelevant" crap isn't going to work here. It is the entire argument.

So, your position is that if a woman has the right to choose, the man should have the right to choose whether or not he should have to support the child? I can't possibly see how that could be exploited in any way.

Regardless, forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, is not acceptable. Or at least, should not be acceptable.

Almalieque wrote:

Nilatai wrote:

Exactly. So the guy shouldn't have any right to demand she get an abortion if she doesn't want one. Equally, the guy shouldn't have any right to demand she carry the child full term. Her body, her choice. Sorry, but the woman's rights trump those of the foetus. After 24 weeks, that's a different matter.

As long as the man is completely out of the equation, i.e. no child support. It's your body, your choice, so you deal with the consequences that you chose. Don't drag anyone else along. If you can't financially afford the child, then you shouldn't get pregnant and or have the child.

No. Wrong. There should be no stipulations on the man's side concerning a woman's right to get an abortion.

While I agree people shouldn't have children they can't afford, this is in no way enforceable. Again, this is irrelevant to whether a woman should have the right to an abortion or not.

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#265 May 01 2011 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent

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Almalieque wrote:

And forcing a guy to support an unwanted child isn't horrendous? How are you going to tell me that it's "My body and I can do whatever I want" without any concern of me, but then want me to support you. It's your choice to keep the baby, so YOU support YOUR decision. YOU made it. Why should a man have to be responsible if the woman doesn't have to be?

First, I agree with your idea. It sucks. It's not an easy thing, and it is sort of unfair for the guy.

Second, your second sentence is idiotic. You are not being forced to support the woman. They call it child support for a reason. I agree with you that it's unfair, but taking away child support only hurts the kid. You can't punish the kid to get back at the woman.

Third, and another example of you not using logic in the least and only relying on emotion, how on earth do you figure that the woman doesn't have to be responsible...?

Almalieque wrote:

For a group of people who is always fighting for "rights" and "equality", I would imagine that you would support men having the same opportunities as women.

I agree. They need to figure out a way to let the man carry the kid for nine months. It certainly isn't fair that they aren't allowed to participate in that right at all.

Almalieque wrote:

It's either that or make both women and men responsible. Giving one an opportunity to "abort" responsibility while forcing the other to uphold responsibility is not right.

And yet another example of you being an idiot. Abortion is taking responsibility, and one that a man doesn't really have to take part in. (Note: I understand that some men would be hurt and feel remorse over an abortion, that's why I said they don't have to take part in it.) And if the woman has the kid, she has to be more responsible than the man. In either case, the woman shoulders the burden of the majority of responsibility.

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#266 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 9:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's not irrelevant, because you're arguing off of emotion and I'm not. I'm not arguing if a woman should have a right to have an abortion or not. My argument is strictly based off of equal responsibilities. If you believe a woman should have the right to have an abortion, fine, just don't force a man to be responsible for raising a child if he doesn't want to.

#267 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 9:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Read above in response to the "responsibility" comment. If you get pregnant from unprotected voluntarily sex, then you are/were irresponsible. As I said, if you want to give the woman the full decision to have a child, since she is the one having the child, then don't force the man to support her decision.

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#268 May 01 2011 at 9:39 PM Rating: Excellent

Xsarus

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The moment you have sex you take full responsibility for any consequences that fall out of that. The situation is what it is, it's a conscious decision.

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#269 May 01 2011 at 9:43 PM Rating: Good

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

I gave you two options (one including couples making their own decisions), you responded with "How about, leave things how they are?". The way things are now excludes couples making their own decisions.

So, as things are, couples can't make the decision together? Gotcha.

Almalieque wrote:

This is completely based off of emotion with nothing to support it other than "I don't like it". Heaven forbid a woman giving birth. The horror! All society as we know it will end... oh wait...

Knowing when someone violates a person's rights is not based on emotion.

Almalieque wrote:

EXACTLY!!!

That's the problem, stipulations exist and that's what I'm arguing against. If a woman decides to keep the child, then the man is forced to support the child. If she decides to abort the child, then the man is not able to support the child. The current laws for a man is completely dependent on what a woman decides to do and I'm arguing that it shouldn't. Either both are mandated to be support the child or give them both equally decisions, where the man is totally independent of what the woman decides to do with her and "her body".

You're not even arguing for or against abortion here. You're arguing against men having to pay for their kids. Again, her body her choice.

Almalieque wrote:

It's not irrelevant, because you're arguing off of emotion and I'm not. I'm not arguing if a woman should have a right to have an abortion or not. My argument is strictly based off of equal responsibilities. If you believe a woman should have the right to have an abortion, fine, just don't force a man to be responsible for raising a child if he doesn't want to.

You're trying to make this on personal emotions. I thought you wanted an argument not based on emotions? how ironic.

It's still a dumb argument. See Belkira's post.

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#270 Almalieque, Posted: May 01 2011 at 10:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Your face is a dumb argument.

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#271 May 01 2011 at 10:35 PM Rating: Excellent

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

Exactly.. Currently there are laws set in place to force men to pay child support. Under the scenario that I presented, the man and the woman are completely independent of each other and are free to make their own choices with no laws interfering.

No, couples today decide whether they're going to keep a child. Usually they will come to an agreement. If they don't, sorry, it's the woman's prerogative as to what happens in her body. If she wants to keep it, guy needs to man up and take responsibility for what his **** did.

Almalieque wrote:

The belief that it is violating a right is based on emotion. I can go around and call everything a "right" and doing so doesn't take away the fact that it is emotional based. It's completely based on "I don't like it". What if I argued " You're taking away the right of the baby/fetus to live/grow", wouldn't that not be an emotional argument? How is that any different? Your only counter would be "that baby/fetus" doesn't have a right", which I could counter by saying the same thing in reverse "that isn't a right for the woman". It's all based on emotions.

You FEEL that is wrong, so therefore you're against it. You haven't provided anything other than it shouldn't happen because you think it's wrong. EMOTION...

No, not really. It's recognising that as a sentient being the woman has the right to decide what happens to her body. It's that simple. I could argue that the woman is more useful to society not pregnant, assuming she has a job. Or again, if she has a job she's more useful to the economy if she doesn't have to take maternity leave. Those would be douchy positions to take, though.

Almalieque wrote:

Nope. You just don't want to admit that I have a point. This is about abortion. My argument is that both members should be held equally accountable. So, whatever laws that there are for men in regards to supporting a child, they should match the laws for women. That, my friend, includes abortion.

You don't have a point though. You're saying women shouldn't be allowed to terminate a pregnancy unless men have the right to sever all connection to the child. That's a stupid position to take.

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#272 May 01 2011 at 10:37 PM Rating: Excellent

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Almalieque wrote:

I see what you mean, but I didn't actually mean it that way when I wrote it, but I do see it either way. By helping the child, you are helping the parent.

No. You're supporting the child. If by "helping the parent" you mean "not forcing the woman to pay for absolutely everything when you were just as irresponsible in creating an unwanted child" then sure. It "helps the parent."

Almalieque wrote:

What emotion? There's absolutely no emotion attached.. We already discussed that the only times abortion should ever be an issue is during scenarios such as rape or failed contraceptives. That only leaves unprotected voluntary sex. So, if you fall in that category YOU ARE OR WERE BEING IRRESPONSIBLE.

The whole, "YOU made the decision YOU support it it's YOUR problem" ****. You do realize that it's not all the woman's fault if she gets pregnant... right? You also realize that women can get pregnant even while trying to have responsible sex, right?

Almalieque wrote:

Or just not get pregnant, which is a whole lot easier to accomplish.

Sure. But mistakes happen. If you're this up in arms about it (and I'm about sick of you pretending it's all the woman's fault she got pregnant) then, as a man, don't have sex unless you want a kid. Ever.

Almalieque wrote:

Read above in response to the "responsibility" comment. If you get pregnant from unprotected voluntarily sex, then you are/were irresponsible. As I said, if you want to give the woman the full decision to have a child, since she is the one having the child, then don't force the man to support her decision.

Once again, you're promoting harm to a child to punish a woman. I'm starting to think you're almost as bad as Varus. You seem to dislike women a lot.

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#273 Almalieque, Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I argued the only two solutions where the responsibility is equal. One allows women to have abortions in any case and the other only by a case by case. I concluded that the solution that allows any abortion and the decision to be a father would be worse for the child. As a result, the other solution is the only reasonable solution remaining, which only allow abortions on a case by case scenario.

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#274 May 02 2011 at 6:24 AM Rating: Excellent

Nilatai

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Almalieque wrote:

The couple doesn't decide anything, the woman does and the man deals with her decision.

And the woman can't "woman" up and take responsibility for what her p*ssy did? If you're fine with being a hypocrite, just say so and we can move on. Else, stop pretending that the woman is completely innocent. She is as equally responsible for the pregnancy as the man.

You can't force responsibility unto the man while allowing the woman to do whatever she pleases without being a hypocrite. So which one is it?

Why don't you understand that having an abortion is taking responsibility? Irresponsible people would choose to give birth to a child they don't want/can't afford.

Almalieque wrote:

Those would indeed be retarded positions as birth is what keeps society growing. I guess you really don't understand that the "***** goes in the ******"?! Pregnancy is part of life and a woman is NOT more useful to society not pregnant than pregnant. HTF do you expect more life to happen? Test tubes?

Sure, that's what I was getting at. How astute of you...

Almalieque wrote:

So, this is nothing but an emotional argument. Pregnancy is a natural, normal and "moral" state of life, if it weren't, then you could have something to argue. Now I see why you're for homosexuality, you think being pregnant hurts society. Wow...

Again, that's exactly what I was saying, I couldn't have meant anything else. Thanks for clarifying for everyone.

Almalieque wrote:

Whether you accept it or not, there is life in a pregnant woman and all you're doing is choosing sides. I could easily make the same types of arguments for the fetus/child, hence making your argument completely emotional and weak to say the least.

As far as I'm concerned it's not alive until it is self sufficient. Hell, until 12 weeks there's a significant risk the body will reject it. No, you can't. A living person has more rights than a foetus.

Nilatai wrote:

You don't have a point though. You're saying women shouldn't be allowed to terminate a pregnancy unless men have the right to sever all connection to the child. That's a stupid position to take.

Almalieque wrote:

I argued the only two solutions where the responsibility is equal. One allows women to have abortions in any case and the other only by a case by case. I concluded that the solution that allows any abortion and the decision to be a father would be worse for the child. As a result, the other solution is the only reasonable solution remaining, which only allow abortions on a case by case scenario.

The responsibility isn't equal though. Not until men can carry children.

Almalieque wrote:

It doesn't make sense to you because you're being emotional. You can't segregate abortion from the concept of raising a child. They are together.

Of course I can, they're two separate issues.

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#275 Almalieque, Posted: May 02 2011 at 6:34 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Not at all. You're just really really confused.

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#276 May 02 2011 at 6:42 AM Rating: Excellent

Nadenu

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I have had 2 children while on the pill. Birth control isn't foolproof.

Also, if you've never had to face the decision of having an abortion, you don't know ****. It's not an easy decision to make. Women aren't deciding to have them the same way they decide to change hair color. FFS.

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