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Karma and the Rating SystemFollow

#1 Mar 28 2005 at 11:25 AM Rating: Excellent
Note: I posted this some time back last year in another forum, but am re-posting it here to get feedback and also to try to bring a topic I like to the table for discussion. Of course, I would like it- I posted it originally. Smiley: grin

Okay, everyone- this is NOT a rant. ^^

I just have seen so many posters complaining about being rated down, and about the trolls that regularly run amok, that I thought I'd give my take on an obvious topic: my understanding of the purpose of the ratings system on Allakhazam. Bear in mind that everyone has a different reason for rating people, and take this guide with a generous helping of salt.

I rate people when I read forums. Unlike many, I announce when I'm rating people, and why. I don't feel that it's mandatory that people expain themselves- there's no requirement. I simply do so because I hope people will see how I rated, and maybe take it as constuctive criticism.

I rate people based on the strength of their posts. I usually rate up the people that I feel made persuasive or well-formed arguments, and have given a number of rate-ups to people whose opinion I did not personally agree with- because they impressed me with the strength of their words.

I generally rate down people who I feel make poor arguments (example- when confronted with a post filled with detail, reply "You're wrong & I can prove it"... without any backup information), people who make personal attacks to other posters (example: "You're a st00p1d n00b so STFU"), or people who are obvious flame trolls (example: people who go into Galka forums & post the topic 'Galkas are fat & stupid').

If I see a post that is neither, such as a comment that just says "I agree" or "I like this post", I do not rate it up or down. It's a statement of opinion- not an argument for or against, & thus not rateworthy, in my humble opinion. ^^

However, not everyone will rate in the same way.

Some people will rate up everyone who they agree with, whether the poster makes an intelligent comment or not, and rate down everyone they disagree with That's the right of the person doing the rating... and it's not "wrong" or "mean".

Also, bear in mind, some people take comments personally, and rate accordingly. I personally try not to rate posts when I'm in a bad mood- otherwise there will be rate-downs all around.

Finally, there are ratings trolls on the forums... whether they are people who have a vendetta against certain posters for previous posts, or simply enjoy making mischief, we shall never know.

I hope my 2 gil is useful in this post- it's been on my mind for some time, and I thought I'd get feedback from the Allakhazam community on how & why they rate posts- so there isn't so much confusion concerning the ratings system.

Discuss! Smiley: boozing

Edited, Mon Mar 28 11:27:35 2005 by Wondroustremor
Longtail | Evilynne | Maevene | Kornakk | Steelbelly
#2 Mar 28 2005 at 2:47 PM Rating: Good
2,038 posts
The moderation system is a trival game people play with no real purpose.

The only reason moderation was added in the online world is to allow users to make bad (spam, profane, etc) posts vanish.

When we see a post for a gilseller, we all rate it down and it goes away. Any post I see rated down that is a valid post, I rate up to prevent it from falling below the default filter.

Any other use of moderation is an exercise in high school drama IMHO. I don't need anyone else to tell me how valid someones opinion is. I use a simple method to do that. Longer posts are typically more worthless than short ones (not always, but usually).
#3 Mar 28 2005 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
3,876 posts
The reason that posts for gilselling disappear on our forum is because I'll hop on to the Forum System Feedback forum and report the post and the poster, and within a short amount of time they're gone.

I don't use filters, so I see those even when they're sub-default. But I hardly ever rate anyone up; it happens on occasion, but it'll only be if somebody has a clear position, opinion, or statement about something relevant, and they don't beat around the bush or mince words getting to the point.

More often I rate people down, because there are a lot more retarded, pointless posts that just make the forums an overall joke to read. The stupid people outnumber around here.

But at least when I see somebody with 300 posts and a rating of 1.8, I know that they're not having a lapse of sense, they've always been a general ******. It's a good reference tool. The high-raters can be shaky, though, because of so many "omg rate me up" threads that exist in various places for blanket karma-*************
#4 Mar 28 2005 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
153 posts
Explanation of rating system

Here's a link to how the system works. I'm posting this because it is a well thought out and complete explaination that will help posters/raters to understand how the system works.
#5 Mar 29 2005 at 3:24 AM Rating: Decent
746 posts
Nice read ^^.
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#6 Mar 29 2005 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
Thanks for the replies- especially Schlumper's addition! Smiley: boozing
Longtail | Evilynne | Maevene | Kornakk | Steelbelly
#7 Mar 29 2005 at 7:28 PM Rating: Default
2,038 posts
I just think the system is pointless because people who are stupid and have no idea what they are talking about get rateups because they "sound" right. I have 150 days of playtime, more than one 75 job, I'm part of the leadership of the oldest NA HNMLS on my server and have been from the start. I know a few things about this game. I'm fed up and tired with these forums.

I could start a thread about possible ways to compleate an unknown quest and made some joke during it about a hotel in broken bow, OK with a broken toilet and 500 dumbasses who have never even been to oklahoma, much less broken bow, would explain "nicely" why the toilet was broken and how to fix it. The best part is they would get rate ups for it. The worse part is the people commenting will not have job levels high enough to even participate in the quest, nor do they have any information about it, and what information they do is totally made up. But they get rateups.

I end up telling them they are stupid and I get ratedowns.. so.. I lost 0.3 points off my average the last few days alone and I have 250 posts :P

If more people on these forums had a clue and rated on how correct posts were and not how correct sounding posts were the karma system would be awesome.

Or the worse part is when I describe a situation in a general way, and some dumbass always has to pipe up with.. "You shouldn't generalize, that doesn't always happen, sometimes this exception occurs.." (they get a rate up). The worst part is what I started the thread over doesn't matter anymore, we are stuck in stupid details that don't matter. My reply is.. "OMG, You mean exceptions happen in life? You mean life is complicated? I WOULD OF NEVER KNOWN HAD YOU NOT POINTED IT OUT."

I need to find a way to state things, that will prevent dumbasses from trying to chime in and make themselves feel smart or important. I'm flustrated, and I'm offical leaving all forums today. There used to be a time on the internet before AOL and before Europe, when we could have discussions that actually acomplished things. But today I just have a headache.

I guess i'll leave you guys with something that we refer to a lot in another project i'm involed in (that makes all the difference in the world..)


``What is it about this bike shed?'' Some of you have asked me.

It is a long story, or rather it is an old story, but it is quite short actually. C. Northcote Parkinson wrote a book in the early 1960s, called ``Parkinson's Law'', which contains a lot of insight into the dynamics of management.

[snip a bit of commentary on the book]

In the specific example involving the bike shed, the other vital component is an atomic power-plant, I guess that illustrates the age of the book.

Parkinson shows how you can go into the board of directors and get approval for building a multi-million or even billion dollar atomic power plant, but if you want to build a bike shed you will be tangled up in endless discussions.

Parkinson explains that this is because an atomic plant is so vast, so expensive and so complicated that people cannot grasp it, and rather than try, they fall back on the assumption that somebody else checked all the details before it got this far. Richard P. Feynmann gives a couple of interesting, and very much to the point, examples relating to Los Alamos in his books.

A bike shed on the other hand. Anyone can build one of those over a weekend, and still have time to watch the game on TV. So no matter how well prepared, no matter how reasonable you are with your proposal, somebody will seize the chance to show that he is doing his job, that he is paying attention, that he is here.

In Denmark we call it ``setting your fingerprint''. It is about personal pride and prestige, it is about being able to point somewhere and say ``There! I did that.'' It is a strong trait in politicians, but present in most people given the chance. Just think about footsteps in wet cement.
#8 Mar 30 2005 at 9:58 AM Rating: Good

I agree that in a lot of cases, the Karma system is either misunderstood or misused- I logged off on Friday with 3.55 Karma, and came back late Sunday evening with a 3.53 rating. However, it's crept back up to 3.54... and I noted that a few topics that weren't worthy of being rated down (the "We Need a Sticky" post got rated down from 4 to 2.68- WTF?). I honestly think that we had a weekend karma troll spanking people's ratings. Sorry, didn't mean to rant... Smiley: disappointed

However, you do have a point... and we all do it from time to time- reading a post about something, and finding one or two holes or points in it that we disagree with, and picking at them. It's part of a forum... and forums, as I have stated before, are rarely about factual evidence, but statements of opinion. Thus, you'll probably never make a post in a forum that nobody disagrees with. However, I don't rate people down because I disagree with something they said- I even mentioned in one of my posts (Cleaning the Slate) that I rated you up, even though I disagreed with you, because you brought up a valid point. So not everyone rates according to whether or not they agree.

I don't know you personally, so don't know all of your accomplishments in-game, and as I mentioned before, have never been involved in HNM hunts, or in an HNMLS. However, that doesn't mean I won't have input about stuff I do know about... and I often post my opinions about things I feel I do know (much to the annoyance of my peers here, I'm sure). However, I like a good debate- a good argument with someone who has the potential to change my opinion.... as you did in my other post (re: how frustrating HNM hunts are). In my opinion, that is one of the reasons we need a diverse group in these forums... to debate. If everyone agreed on every topic, I'd stop posting- because it would be too boring.

Finally, if you go for good, then I for one will be a little sad... I feel you've started speaking in the Remora forum again after a long hiatus, only to part... and that's one less voice. Just because not everyone agrees with you doesn't mean you shouldn't be heard. Smiley: chug

Sorry for the tangent, but I thought that I'd at least throw in a reply- I do hope you'll stay, at least in Remora forum.

One thing though:
bleach wrote:
I need to find a way to state things, that will prevent dumbasses from trying to chime in and make themselves feel smart or important. I'm flustrated, and I'm offical leaving all forums today. There used to be a time on the internet before AOL and before Europe, when we could have discussions that actually acomplished things. But today I just have a headache.

Unfortunately, someone will always reply (I am proving your point in the first part, I think).
And AOL is in the US... we don't have in in Bermuda (thank goodness)... and why Europe? I don't get that.

Longtail | Evilynne | Maevene | Kornakk | Steelbelly
#9 Mar 30 2005 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
72 posts
At the risk of committing Karma Suicide, as I've heard it called, I really don't take the karma ratings seriously. At all. To be perfectly honest, I think as far as using someone's karma rating to give value to a person's post, thoughts or ideas, it's almost nearly insulting.

Can a person truly judge the merit of another's thoughts based on a number I ask? Not at all.

While I will say that many times there is a very distinct correlation between a low karma rating and the theme of the same individual's posts in terms of disruptiveness, destructiveness, or unconstructiveness, this is by no means an absolute truth. Sometimes, all it could mean is that alot of people disagreed with that poster's oppinion and/or perspective.

And in this respect I personally believe that to judge someone based on thier personal oppinion in a community like this doesn't really have any positive purpose, and is for the most part an act of futility.

I mean, just because you don't agree with someone's perspective, doesn't mean that the poster's point doesn't have some merit whatsoever. All it means is that you don't agree.

In terms of how I view my own karma, I really could care less. I don't post my perspectives for others to agree with me, I post to say my peace, give my perspective, and then log off of the site knowing that maybe I've given someone else something to think about.

Whether or not they agree with me isn't the point. But I do hope I've made them think.

Never will I post something just because I think it will earn me Karma points.

So, in this spirit, if others rate me down because they don't agree with me, so be it.

But I have to say that I'm disappointed...

Rate me down if you wish. I don't care.
Or rate me up. I will be equally unmoved.

But to have my words and oppinions be taken seriously, and to have others reply to me with thier own words and oppinions in the spirit of constructiveness?

Now that is something to strive for.

For I would much rather someone post an opposing oppinion, and give me something to think about, rather than just a fluctuation in a few numerical digets.

(Karma Suicide here I come!)
Ariaera: 60 RDM/32 BLM/10 THF/7 WAR/6 MNK
Remora Server, Bastok Rank 6
Artifact Armor Complete
#10 Mar 30 2005 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
Kyllendare wrote:
But to have my words and oppinions be taken seriously, and to have others reply to me with thier own words and oppinions in the spirit of constructiveness?

Bravo- in this one statement you explained what my long post was trying to say- that I rate people according to the merit of their posts, not their ratings, and not whether I agree with their position or not.

Speaking of rating up, rated you up for your explanation- and because your post has been the most eloquent I've seen in a while. Smiley: king
Longtail | Evilynne | Maevene | Kornakk | Steelbelly
#11 Mar 30 2005 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
137 posts
OMG so for what the last year I being rating post for NO reason!
I dont post much becasue IM at work. But I have been a regular vistor to Alla since EQOA beta phase 2, join last year when I started playing FFXI. I even check this site on a regular basis when i didnt play for 4 or 5 months. I never Had over 3.00 so my rate up never counted. Why have it there if you can rate people? I understand now why you don't want everybody to have it but still.
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#12bleach, Posted: Mar 30 2005 at 2:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I like to base opinions on how well it actually works. My first online gaming experience was Gemstone II on GEnie BBS(which predates public/most access to the internet).. I've seen a lot. Only so many times you can hear the same arguments/accusations/claims/etc before you go insane. I think i've reached that point.
#13 Mar 30 2005 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
72 posts
I like to base opinions on how well it actually works. My first online gaming experience was Gemstone II on GEnie BBS(which predates public/most access to the internet).. I've seen a lot. Only so many times you can hear the same arguments/accusations/claims/etc before you go insane. I think i've reached that point.

I can completely understand and relate to this. A perfect example of what you're talking about I think can be seen if one just looks at the Red Mage job forums. Much of the same arguments repeated over and over. Much of the same responses to the aforementioned arguements repeated, over and over. And yes, it does get a bit iritating to the point that you build up some frustration.


My personal course of action regarding this (and take it with a grain of salt for what it is) is that I always read the title of a thread, and the first post of a thread, and if I smell the dead horse and see the angry villagers running in with thier clubs to beat it, I exit right out of that thread, simply because there's nothing there I feel I need to read.

I don't rate, I don't rant or flame the original poster. I simply don't even involve myself in the topic, because I just don't think it would hold any relevance to myself.

If/when a topic interests me or has any relevance to myself, that is when I post a reply most often.

I guess you could compare reading through the forums to reading a news paper- most people just read the sections that holds interest for them, usually judging by the headline. I recommend this tactic to alot of people if they want to lower thier frustration with the forums, unless of course they just like a good arguement.

Also, I think that as far as basing an oppinion on how well the proposed idea actually works can be a bit vague.

After all, what works well for one person, may not work well for another. I think it should really be about what works well for you.

I was so depressed yesterday thinking about how stupid people were. I admit when I am wrong, ignorant, and have no idea what I am talking about. I don't talk about such things and try to listen to the advice of others.

I applaud you on being mature enough and having the character to admit the things you listed, as well as listening to others. I agree with the sense that it can be depressing that it seems "Everyone wants to be right". To me, the forums here aren't about being right- it's about aquiring knowledge.

I don't browse these forums so I can make posts that proclaim "I know all, listen to me!". If that was the case, why in the heck do I even look at these forum? To myself at least, I browse these forums to learn how to be a better player, to meet other players with that same goal, and share our experiences and guidance with each other.

I guess to sum this idea up, I'll have to use a paraphrasing of a quote that one of my history professors had at the end of his syllabus:

"Don't expect to be perfect or to get a perfect score. After all, if you already knew everything about this subject, you wouldn't be here in the first place."

I don't give advice to females that tylenol is "good enough", because I have no idea (nor will I ever know) what I am talking about.

After I got my wisdom teeth cut out I had some left over pain medication. I can say from experience (being a female myself) that vicodin is just about right. Tylenol in this situation would be like trying to stop a cannon ball with a fly swatter.

Again, these are all just my oppinions and perspectives, not to say that they're right or wrong- just the product of my experiences.

Anyhow, lovely post Bleach!
Ariaera: 60 RDM/32 BLM/10 THF/7 WAR/6 MNK
Remora Server, Bastok Rank 6
Artifact Armor Complete
#14Ailitardif the Puissant, Posted: Feb 05 2008 at 5:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It looks like I should have read this before my whiny post. Lesson learned.
#15 Feb 06 2008 at 6:37 AM Rating: Good
Necropost ftl. Smiley: oyvey
#16 Feb 10 2008 at 3:47 AM Rating: Good
526 posts
"March 28th, 2005"

Wow! The Posts of the Dead 3! :)
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