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Investigation: Profession Gil Making Company?Follow

#1 Aug 18 2004 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Before I begin, please let it be known that this is only a theory based on the observations of several people over the last few weeks. What I am attempting to do is bring this out into the open to allow others to investigate the matter on their own. Once we all reach a suitable conclusion, we can then proceed with some action, or ignore it all together.

Much of the info I am putting below is is based on theory and theory only, which is the reason why I would like more points of view from people that have either noticed the same thing or are willing to take time from their busy adventuring life to go see for themselves.

The accusation is as follows: Several characters have been observed to be on almost 24/7 in limited locations doing nothing but farming several NMs for their precious drops. Normally, this wouldn't be a big deal, but I am sure you will agree that in 3 weeks time, people should sleep.

The observations are:

1) The characters are Beyond, Cocokiki, Anastcia, Fanatic, Dangelo, Eagless.

2)Anastcia and Fanatic hang out in Castle Oztroja hunting for Astral rings

3)Cocokiki, Dangelo, Eagless, and Beyond all camp Ordelle's Caves for Stroper Chyme, using surround and spam tactics to farm Archer Rings.

4)AH records on Siren at any time show one of these people as the major sellers of these drops in history. Very rarely, others manage to make a sell.

5)The characters have been on 24/7 for as long as we have observed, leading us to believe that a rotating staff of people play the characters in order to continue to farm.

6)Equipment on these characters is not optimal for an 'adventurer', even if the focus was on farming.

7)Rank on these characters is at static at level 1, despite being level 50+ characters.

8)Subs for these characters is invariably a very low level pulling class, such as Warrior for provoke. I have observed one as being a level 51 WHM/5 WAR.

9)They use Sleep and Wait tactics to prevent others from pulling a stroper chyme spawn. In other words, if another group or person arrives to camp the stroper, they sleep a spawn until the new person or group leaves in frustration.

10)It is potentially feasible that one person is controlling all the characters in a particular are, since no response is ever elicited from most of them. Albeit, one character in each area may respond to queries. There is no way to prove this, unfortunately.

My conclusion: Gil farming company that sells gil to make Real Life money.

I invite anyone on Siren to help out with this investigation, since multiple reports have been sent to GMs with the only reply of "It is being investigated." Perhaps if enough people reported the issue, some measure of control could be implemented. Again, I do not want to be accused of making false accusations, so see for yourself and make your own conclussions. Thanks!
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#2 Aug 18 2004 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hi, Shadai ^^

These people must be selling the gil, because they definitely aren't using it to buy new equip. My friend has witnessed Fanatic getting numerous Kotes. Maybe they are hackers, too. <_< >_>

Edited, Wed Aug 18 13:37:14 2004 by WisdomAndLore
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#3 Aug 18 2004 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey Lore!
You said they ARE buying new equipment with it? I've never seen them change their equipment.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that they hack the game, though. I wouldn't be surprised if they did bot, though. This is all speculation, though, and I would like hard evidence before I make that accusation. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to prove bots.
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#4 Aug 18 2004 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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I meant aren't. Sorry, I was about to be late for class. I was half-kidding about the hacking thing. I doubt it, but I wouldn't totally rule it out.
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#5 Aug 18 2004 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to stop this :(
#6 Aug 18 2004 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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There are certainly some valid reasons to be annoyed or frustrated by either the existence of bots, or 24/7 player teams. It's natural to feel some emotion, since these type of players (if you wish to call them that) are using unconventional and in many cases, illegal methods to advance their characters or pocketbooks.

Final Fantasy is not a linear game though, there is a multitude of choices, ie crafting, fishing, hunting, hanging out, etc. While the practices of those using unethical gaming practices certainly has some impact on the game, in the overall scheme of things, the impact is going to be pretty minimal.

What generally gets overlooked is that the game is above all else, a way for us to have fun, find a diversion from real life, and make some new online friends.

Some of us enjoy acquiring wealth, others the thrill of the hunt and leveling, and yet others, perfecting our crafting. No matter what the gilbots do, it shouldn't get in the way of our enjoyment of the game, the sole exception to this being NM camping, but that's another thread.

Bottom line? In an ideal gaming world, bots, gil sellers, 24/7 tagteams wouldn't exist, and those that did would be dealt with by the GM staff.

We know the GM staff isn't going to make a priority of any of the above, so our best defense is to simply have fun with our friends, level at our own pace, enjoy the company and camraderie.

#7 Aug 18 2004 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Double post, my apologies

Edited, Wed Aug 18 15:46:22 2004 by Anchorbine
#8 Aug 18 2004 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't get me wrong, I am the first to tell anyone that the whole point of a game is to have fun (Game = Fun). Just ask anyone that knows me :D

However, I am also a great proponent of attaining my own goals instead of paying for them through the AH. I could easily purchase the item dropped from the AH, but I want to get them myself. I am sure I am not the only one that believes in this.

The second thing is that if they are selling Gil, it is a violation of SE's terms of service. If a rule is not going to be enforced, then the rule must cease to exist. It is one way or another.

I have great fun hunting for my own items, and groups like this effectively prevent me from acquiring what I need in the way I would like to acquire it....that is, by killing the creature that drops it. I enjoy spending time with my friends online, and half the time you will find me hanging out with someone in my LS that is leveling while I just sit around and make sure no meanies come and ambush his or her group. (Probably the reason I am still 54 dragoon, hehe.)

This situation does warrant an investigation, and I am hoping that separate minds working on their own will be able to provide me with more information so that I may plan a more concise course of action. After all, if it's in writing, they are legally bound to enforce it...in the US AND in Japan. It's called the Service Agreement for a reason. :D
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#9 Aug 18 2004 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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I've heard of Dangelo for certain as a gilseller.

Don't forget the Zo* hive of gilfarmers. This group of people aren't a real threat yet (they only have 1-2 characters over level 45) but pretty soon they'll be exactly the same problem, as different people take shifts 'playing' the game, or rather spawn-whoring nm drops like the archer's ring, ochiudo's, monster signa, and otherwise taking over popular farming areas like Beadeaux and Giddeus. Is their aim to monopolize NMs and sell off all their gil? Time will tell.
#10 Aug 18 2004 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello all, I created an account specifically to reply to this thread. I try to enjoy FF11 as much as I can and have fun with my friends. But part of having fun is being good and having good items. When I want an item such as Ochiudo's Kote I don't necessarily want to spend weeks on end trying to come up with 500,000 gil when I am easily capable of killing the NM. I have no problem with competition, but unfair ganging up on you and always being camping prevents me from ever getting my item. How is this fair to me? The point is, it's not fair. That's why it's against the rules, however, the GM's do not honor the rules. Someone tell me what we can do here? I have witnessed this behavior myself and I am to the point where I am going to quit the game. Why won't the GM's help us? Why doesn't Square honor the agreement we are supposedly bound to? I have witnessed these people admit to working shifts of farming to sell the Gil. Also, it's not difficult to see that they never log off, EVER. A normal person would have fallen asleep or died of lack of sleep from this. This is a HUGE problem. What can we do?
#11 Aug 19 2004 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I have also witnessed this 24/7 hunt! And the only conclusion i can come to, aside from protesting SE, is contacting a lawyer! All that have posted apparently understand the "user terms and Agreement" , so by this we understand that it takes two parties to uphold the agreement. We as players have a contract(so to speak) with the game providers! Now, the investigating I've done is that in the User Terms and Agreement, we the players agree that we are fully responsible for our characters and that no one else is supposed to have access to our accounts/characters. And for these players to be on 24/7 for a month (at least) shows that they have violated their end of the contract. We realize it is imposible for one human to have all these characters on 24/7. so either they are botting or allowing others to access their accounts/characters. Both of wich are a violation of the "agreement".
Which brings up the issue of "breech of contract" between us (the customer) and SE/pol. So my conclusion is that we are being robbed. They agreed to offer us a service for a fee and now they have failed us in not giving us that service. We have cryed out for weeks for GM's to do something to stop this! We know they have the ability to check any and all records to prove they dominate the market and they NEVER log out! (or the evidence to prove there is a violation) And still you and I are paying for a GM to do nothing!? This is an outrage! Other players should not have to quit this game out of frustration!
In conclusion I'd like to say "United we stand, divided we fall!" We need to contact SE and POL and anyone else directly involved with the game! Our monthly fee goes to these people to keep us happy and i for one am NOT a happy customer! This is something that sits on the line of "Class action Lawsuit!" yes i said it!! If I pay for something like this, I should not be dissatisfied due to people getting away with breaking the rules! It is NOT fair! and I don't pay to be treated unfairly!
#12 Aug 19 2004 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Based on the people I have talked to, a lawsuit really is a viable option, but only if we gather enough resources of our own. So far, evidence is mostly circumstantial, and the majority of us don't want to stand guard and watch these people to log their actions. It is true that SE has all the necessary logs to validate our information, but at this point, a lawsuit would mean that they are our opponents. Thus, it is unlikely they will provide us with the information in order to settle the dispute.

There may be a multitude of reasons the GMs aren't doing anything. The latest report ended with the following line from the GM:

"You did not provide enough evidence to support your claim. I am sorry."

Despite having the logs to view the evidence for themselves, they insist that there is no problem. I have heard claims that the gil companies paid off the GMs, but this is only speculation, again. My suggestion is that we gather our own data in order to present it to as a group. We will still be the minority, however, so it won't be easy at all.

Be aware, however, that any lawsuit brought against SE will more than likely have your account cancelled for the 'duration of the settlement'. Many of us don't really want to go that far. The question is, is there any other option?
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#13 Aug 19 2004 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if we could train a Yagudo High Priest all the way to the Deggi camp...it would be easier than a lawsuit. =p
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#14 Aug 19 2004 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Too funny Lore!

Felex has actually contemplated on spawning the DRK AF2 NM and training it to the Ordelle's Caves camper's site.

PS> I am not condoning this behaviour :D
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#15 Aug 20 2004 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok... whats up with the Zo*'s? I started to see them a few months ago.... they are not at a high level yet.... I was in Jueno teleporting people around and one of them sends me a /tell

I wanted to try to get some info... if I could about who they are... so I say hi back...

He asks me what I'm doing and I tell him a few mins later he asks why I keep leaving (duh, I just told him) and ask what he's doing he says "talking"

Then he asks how much gil I've got..... so I tell him (lied I have more) I say 20k

about 20 mins go by, he sends me another /tell and says "Give me money"

I told him I couldn't do to some reason, and he stops. I don't think he knew what I said or knew what he was trying to say, In a way I'm not sure if he wanted me to sell him my gil or what? Does anyone have any ideas on these guys? Are they gil sellers?
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#16 Aug 20 2004 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol almost everytime I say hi to 1 of them they either say (I don't speak any English.) or ask for gil.
#17 Aug 21 2004 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I have partied with the Zo____s, and the only time any of them talked was the original /tell to join the party. This was the worst party I have ever been in, not because they didn't talk, but because they were pulling vts and ts with a full party.

Shadai wrote:
It is true that SE has all the necessary logs to validate our information, but at this point, a lawsuit would mean that they are our opponents. Thus, it is unlikely they will provide us with the information in order to settle the dispute.


With sufficent evidence, you can get a court order to force them to turn over the records. This would be difficult, because SE no doubt has several excellent lawyers that would be able to keep this case on ice, which would end up costing anyone attempting such a suit a lot of money. (Corporations don't like to be brought to court)

(I am not a lawyer - just happen to know a bit about the justice system)

~Cdgthug
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#18 Aug 21 2004 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I think you'd have a virtually impossible time taking any type of legal action against them, since the TOS we agree too pretty much states it's their game, they set the rules, and they enforce the rules as they wish.

There is nothing in the TOS that mandates they must enforce their own rules, only that they can, if they wish too.
#19 Aug 23 2004 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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To clear up the air a bit.

All of the Zoe___ players are in fact chineese gamers and yes, they are gil farmers. This was confirmed to me a while ago by a few friends that speak chineese and spoke to them.

Also, there are groups of Zoe___ players in OTHER servers as well.


Why do they suck at the game though? Simple. They either get the game in english or in japaneese, but of which they don't understand. The translator is useless to them...they have NO real way of knowing what the **** they are doing.

You know who's to blame for them having characters already over lv40+? We are. Yes, us.

When you get a crappy player in your party and not boot them out, YOU create the "high level n00b" problem. They had to get there one way or another, didn't they? The Zoe___ only form of leveling would be with each other, and it should be left that way.

That's just my opinion. SE won't do anything, they don't have a reason to. You know how many "I'm about to quit FFXI cause farming sucks" players stayed in the game when they found out it's just $20 to get 50k? Do you think a simple little ToS is punishable to the "highest extent of the law?"

Let's be real. The MOST SE will do is ban the user names and IP address, and if I, one wee little man with a keyboard and too much free time at work, can figure a way around that, imagine a group of coperate people that are DETERMINED to get real life money off of the ignorant (or well...lazy? lol).


There is no point in beating the dead horse on this topic. All we can do is /sigh and move on. This happens in ALL games, there's nothing we can do.
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#20 Aug 23 2004 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I hate to say it but Exodus has a point. Any private legal action is bound to fail when going against a corporation on such a trivial matter. And the fact is, this is a trivial matter. I doubt anyone would take it seriously.

That doesn't mean it's not a problem, though. I am going to continue looking into it and see if I can find a loophole somewhere that will give us an edge. In the end, maybe we can prevent a mass exodus of players due to unfair rules.

In the meantime, let's continue to try to have some fun while we can.....and avoid the ulcers :D
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#21 Aug 23 2004 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You know who's to blame for them having characters already over lv40+? We are. Yes, us.

When you get a crappy player in your party and not boot them out, YOU create the "high level n00b" problem. They had to get there one way or another, didn't they? The Zoe___ only form of leveling would be with each other, and it should be left that way.


I have to disagree with you Exodus. Kicking someone out of your party is what creates the "high level n00b" problem. Keeping them in your party and trying to educate them, that is what will solve it. If they don't listen, then no matter what you do, they are a lost cause. Not to mention, there are some very nice people that just can't play very well (some are in fact on your /befriend cool dude thread). Kicking them out would feel bad.

As for the gilfarmer matter, I really don't care. Yes, it is wrong; but I'm not going to let a bunch of cheaters and wierdos ruin my gaming experience.
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#22 Aug 23 2004 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I would have to agree with you on this.

But, How would you seperate normal users, that leave
their character logged in when they go to work?

I leave my character logged in 24/7 unless a storm.
Sell stuff from my character during the day.

Im I now required to log off when not sitting directly in front of the PC?

Im not a professional gil making company, unless you think
making about 2-3k in a 8 hour period.
#23 Aug 23 2004 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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We aren't talking about people who leave their character on and Bazaar while at work or asleep. These are people who leave provoke bots on 24/7 to get mobs like Stroper Chymes and Mee Deggi.
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#24 Aug 24 2004 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I just wanted to ensure that what we are talking about.

I agree that the NM camp bots and others should be stopped.

I really dont have a job that is able to go out and hunt
these things out.

But, I have heard on my LS the problems some LS members
are having.
#25 Aug 24 2004 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Elajeh wrote:
I have also witnessed this 24/7 hunt! And the only conclusion i can come to, aside from protesting SE, is contacting a lawyer! All that have posted apparently understand the "user terms and Agreement" , so by this we understand that it takes two parties to uphold the agreement. We as players have a contract(so to speak) with the game providers!......................................


Let's not get too carried away here ^^

When the ToS says that we're responsible for our characters and shouldn't let other people use them, it's just Square warning you that if someone else uses your character for something that violates the ToS, telling Square it was someone else using your character isn't going to stop you from getting banned/suspended.

As far as the gil farmers go, we, as a group, need to stop with this, "The GMs dont' enforce the rules" nonsense. They DO enforce the rules, but this isn't the People's Court where you're guaranteed to see a resolution in a 15 minute segment.

Take fish botting for example. You're SURE you've found a fish bot! They aren't responding to your /tells, they're in the same area all the time just fishing. Everything points to the fact that this person is a bot, so you call a GM. The GM says they'll look into it and the next day you see the same person in the same spot fishing. Does that mean the GM didn't look into it? NO! It could mean a lot of different things, and it's not appropriate for us to assume that the GM hasn't done anything because the situation hasn't changed to your satisfaction on your timetable.

The same goes for gil farmers. If they aren't using voke bots to get the job done, there's not a single thing that can be done to stop them right now. There's no rule against grouping together and camping mobs for drops. There's no time limit on how long you can spend doing it. The only way Square can step in is if they can trace the flow of gil from the gil farmers to someone who paid for it on the same server. Considering the price of gil these days, in order to be absolutely positive they were getting the right person, they'd pretty much have to buy the gil online and then track the flow of gil to/from the person who sends it to them on the server. That's a few hundred dollars for Square to invest per person, PER SERVER to curb gil farming, and that's likely to only stop one person and maybe a few others associated with them.

I know it's frustrating, and I certainly don't approve, but (as you may have noticed from this post) it's even MORE frustrating when people vent and rant on about how Square isn't doing anything to stop this. It's NOT a quick fix for Square, and they'd have to spend tens of thousands of dollars every month to stop the gil farmers currently in the game, knowing full well that there would be another batch signing up the following month.

Please try to be realistic about it...it's a lot less frustrating when you fully comprehend the nature of the situation.
#26 Aug 24 2004 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see how it would take so much RL money to investigate these problems, but if they were true problem solvers they would see that all the information is there for them already.

Process of selling Gil:

1) Earn the gil in game
2) Sell it on the web to someone with a character on same server
3) E-Mog gil to character in game
4) Wash rinse repeat.

Now take into account the following:

1) All E-Mog transfers are logged
2) All character activity is logged
3) SE has detailed records of which accounts have multiple characters

Finally, the pattern to search and destroy:

1) Massive E-Mogs of standard amounts of Gil
2) Massive time logged as being active, not in Bazaar mode without movement, not in mog house, not moving from zone to zone.
3) Time logged gives no chance for human required rest in the slightest.
4) No E-Mogs coming in, only going out.
5) In the case of one bank character, all Gil E-Mogs going to a single character at any point in time.

If a player points out a potential problem, SE only has to pull records pertaining to the people involved. Being a programmer, I can say that getting such information from game databases is easy, easy, and, oh yeah.....easy. The patterns above will stand out like a sore thumb.

If they get rid of that account, and the person returns with another account, or if another person starts up a farming account....well, it happens. But you know, in real life, the police don't give up on murders just because it's bound to happen again sometime soon, somewhere else, by someone else. It's an honor thing, and being a Japanese company, I see SE greatly losing face in this matter.
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#27 Aug 24 2004 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Shadai wrote:
If they get rid of that account, and the person returns with another account, or if another person starts up a farming account....well, it happens. But you know, in real life, the police don't give up on murders just because it's bound to happen again sometime soon, somewhere else, by someone else. It's an honor thing, and being a Japanese company, I see SE greatly losing face in this matter.


Therein lies the major problem. Unless Square can actually catch someone in the process of SELLING the gil, they can't act on any amount of logged information that they have access to. In other words, they would have to buy the gil online and wait to see who sends it to them in-game.

Again, I think we're getting carried away with the romantic notion that Square has some sort of special investigations unit set up to track down, catch, and deal with people blatantly violating the ToS. In reality, I'm sure it's just a special project assigned to GMs for the oh-so-rare bit of downtime they might encounter throughout their shift.

The cost of having a small group of individuals (or even one person) on salary for the sole purpose of tracking down ToS violators would be enormous, and certainly not likely to be considered a prudent investment at this time.
#28 Aug 24 2004 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Perhaps I am not understanding why you think the logs wouldn't be enough information. It has happened before (that I didn't understand something), so I will leave that open for now.

But, I doubt anyone would be giving away huge quantities of Gil to other players for absolutely no valid game reason. If there is such a person, I would like to meet him or her and get my share :)

SE's logs will show one person sending 10k, 50k, 100k, 500k to different characters not under the same account. SE's logs will show this happening repeatedly. SE's logs will show that the person sending out this gil is not receiving anything in return, or at least nothing worth that much. SE's logs will show this person actively playing 24/7. SE's logs will show all this and more.

You don't need an entire task force for this...the problems are actually being pointed out by other players. No need to hunt the problem....I am pointing my finger at the person responsible in my mind. Just research him for 5 minutes.

It's not a difficult concept. The RL equivalent would be someone pointing at someone else that just now killed another person and killed a person yesterday and killed a person the day before, and killed a persone the day prior to that. In broad daylight, by the way. With lots of witnesses. And a camera. Several of them, in fact.
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#29 Aug 24 2004 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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First, addressing the "follow the gil" idea, what about those of us who have a mule? For me, I do most AH transactions on my main, but if I do a lot of farming Aloysia gets the overflow and does AH sales and bazaars in Bastok. How could SE reasonably separate mule from ToS violator?

Second, I came across a site a while ago that had three Siren accounts listed for sale. Now there weren't any character names listed, but I say we all start going to these sites, asking for the character names to see if we like them enough to want to buy the account (would a guy really want to buy a female taru named "Tickles"?) and then pass that info on?
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#30 Aug 25 2004 at 9:28 AM Rating: Decent
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I have a mule as well, and a mule automatically breaks the pattern since you are only sending stuff to one character(instead of many others) and you are sending varying amounts of gil and other goods(instead of standard amounts of gil and no items).

The Gil farmers transfer mostly Gil in standard amounts, and very rarely do they transfer items to anyone other than themselves for storage.
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#31 Aug 25 2004 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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(would a guy really want to buy a female taru named "Tickles"?)


I wouldn't mind buying that... <_< >_>
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#32 Aug 25 2004 at 11:38 AM Rating: Good
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I have to disagree with you Exodus. Kicking someone out of your party is what creates the "high level n00b" problem. Keeping them in your party and trying to educate them, that is what will solve it. If they don't listen, then no matter what you do, they are a lost cause. Not to mention, there are some very nice people that just can't play very well (some are in fact on your /befriend cool dude thread). Kicking them out would feel bad.


Well, I wasn't specific. Let me elaborate. Smiley: tongue

This is how I define people in this particular situation. We have newbs and then we have n00bs.

Newb
A newb is someone who is just fairly new at the game. We all started at this point. We were all newbs once. Newbs are usually friendly, opt for learning, and understand that there are many things left undiscovered for them in this game they choose to play. Normally, unless they bought an account, "high level newbs" do not exist.

N00b
Arrogant. They seem to know the game like the back of their hands but fail to do anything correct. They possess a "I own, you don't" personality in game to compinsate their lack of testicular fortitude IRL. These people refuse to learn, refuse to cooperate, and refuse to allow you to enjoy your gamming experience.



There. ^^ Smiley: lol I was whining about the high level n00b problem. I love my newbies. I breed them. Smiley: smile Smiley: lol
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#33 Aug 25 2004 at 11:47 AM Rating: Good
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Shadai wrote:
I can see how it would take so much RL money to investigate these problems, but if they were true problem solvers they would see that all the information is there for them already.

Process of selling Gil:

1) Earn the gil in game
2) Sell it on the web to someone with a character on same server
3) E-Mog gil to character in game
4) Wash rinse repeat.

Now take into account the following:

1) All E-Mog transfers are logged
2) All character activity is logged
3) SE has detailed records of which accounts have multiple characters

Finally, the pattern to search and destroy:

1) Massive E-Mogs of standard amounts of Gil
2) Massive time logged as being active, not in Bazaar mode without movement, not in mog house, not moving from zone to zone.
3) Time logged gives no chance for human required rest in the slightest.
4) No E-Mogs coming in, only going out.
5) In the case of one bank character, all Gil E-Mogs going to a single character at any point in time.

If a player points out a potential problem, SE only has to pull records pertaining to the people involved. Being a programmer, I can say that getting such information from game databases is easy, easy, and, oh yeah.....easy. The patterns above will stand out like a sore thumb.

If they get rid of that account, and the person returns with another account, or if another person starts up a farming account....well, it happens. But you know, in real life, the police don't give up on murders just because it's bound to happen again sometime soon, somewhere else, by someone else. It's an honor thing, and being a Japanese company, I see SE greatly losing face in this matter.



Sounds like a good idea, but take into consideration that FFXI has more people on it than what SE has in employees in the FFXI department.

Do a /sea all. There are about 2400 players online at that very moment. Kill off 100 for Bazaars. That's still 2300.

A GM gets 11 calls and how many hours of wait do you have to put up with?

I rest my case. If I was SE, I wouldn't care too much. I'm not going to destroy my profit, hire extra GMs, just so that something that is almost impossible to prevent gets a small speed bump.
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#34 Aug 25 2004 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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Shadai wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding why you think the logs wouldn't be enough information. It has happened before (that I didn't understand something), so I will leave that open for now.


The logs themselves don't provide sufficient evidence to ban someone for selling gil because due to the fact that logs are circumstantial. Transfering gil in set amounts to other players with or without a previous discussion is not a vialoation of the ToS. While the logs may strongly indicate that this is what a person is up to, it's still not enough information to act on. You would have to have direct evidence that the person sending the gil recieved some form of monetary compensation outside the game in order to justify terminating their account.

Remember, the burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the accused. If someone accuses me of something, it's not required of me to prove them wrong, it's required of them to prove themselves correct.

It's not up to the gil farmers to prove they aren't selling gil, it's up to SE to prove that they are, and the logs just don't provide enough information to act on.
#35 Aug 26 2004 at 12:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Sure SE might have all the information they could possibly need to make a case against gil farmers, however they cannot prove this without getting information from the credit card companies that are being used to buy the gil, and that can be difficult in itself.

Overall its not a lack of evidence, but a lack of reason to go and try to make the case. It is not cost effective for the company, in fact they would lose money when you think about how many accounts each gil seller would have.

Not suit against the company would ever make it to court, corporate lawyers are well paid to keep this sort of thing from ever happening. Also I'm not sure where SE is actually based, so if it is outside the U.S. we cannot get the information by court.

The only thing you can do is /blacklist the Zo____s, but even that won't effect them.

~Cdgthug

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#36 Aug 26 2004 at 3:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I dont think the zo's speak english. i remember trying to get them to leave me alone by saying (i dont speak any english) and they started to speak to me in chinese/japanese/whatever.
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#37 Aug 26 2004 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Hmmm. we're having a problem like this on Carbuncle too. But, I believe there is a way to stop them. If I'm correct, there is a party camping stroper chyme 24/7? Take you ls nm hunting, outpull them. Another answer is boycott what they sell. And finally, don't buy gil online. Now it will take some time but if all of the servers work together, we can take these companies out of business.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
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#38 Aug 26 2004 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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cdktkd wrote:
Hmmm. we're having a problem like this on Carbuncle too. But, I believe there is a way to stop them. If I'm correct, there is a party camping stroper chyme 24/7? Take you ls nm hunting, outpull them. Another answer is boycott what they sell. And finally, don't buy gil online. Now it will take some time but if all of the servers work together, we can take these companies out of business.

Just my thoughts on the subject.



Your a high beleiver that there is such a thing as Utopia, huh? Smiley: tongue

Let's be real now. I was having problems organizing an 18 people alliance to do Eco War...and you wanna set up a server wide standard? It's a good idea, but you have to take into consideration that it just won't work.

I figure that SE won't do anything about it, calling a GM is a waist of time and stressful, might as well just deal with it. This happens in ALL MMORPGs. If you go to a web site, they don't JUST offer FFXI gil, they offer stuff for 10 other games as well, no matter what the popularity of the game.


What can we do about it? Just NOT buy gil from these sites. Bout it. If you see a Zoe, leave them be. Don't invite them to party, don't do anything with them. They are just people trying to put food on their children's plate.
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#39 Aug 26 2004 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Man, Exodus, you make me sound evil.

If the majority of the people playing the game are of the "don't worry about them and leave them be" attitude, then there is no point in continuing this line of thought.

If the majority of the people playing the game are of the "this is wrong and needs to be corrected" attitude, then a REAL solution needs to be formulated.

I refuse to believe that the tool implemented by the software in order to catch dubious acts will not provide the information necessary to prove such acts. SE shouldn't care less of the credit card transactions if their own logs state the obvious. It is not circumstantial. If it is, I would like to see one of you make millions of gil and then distribute it to 60, 70, or 80 people in set amounts of 100k for no in game return whatsoever.

People are not that nice. Especially not multiple people.

"Oh! I have 5 million gil. I think I'll send this random person 100k, this other one 250k, and this one deserves 500k! Oh oh...who else can I give free gil to?"
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#40 Aug 26 2004 at 10:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Shadai wrote:
It is not circumstantial. If it is, I would like to see one of you make millions of gil and then distribute it to 60, 70, or 80 people in set amounts of 100k for no in game return whatsoever.

People are not that nice. Especially not multiple people.


Well, to an extent you are correct, but if there is one person who might do this, then you cannot prove that the money they recieved out of game had anything to do with the money they sent in game. Without official documentation on paper, not on a computer or in a log picture, there is no way to link the payment and the sending of money. The guy can simply say he was feeling generous and picked random people. AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYONE CAN SAY THAT WILL CONTRADICT HIM.

I do believe the majority of the people on the servers don't really care about what the other people are doing, as they are too busy playing the game. Are you going to stop your party to have them think about the effects of gil selling in game? Doubtful. Are you going to sit there logged in handing out flyers? Well aside from the magic mart quest - no.

You may care, So and So may care, but most likely there are people who still haven't heard of buying gil, the "chinese" gil sellers or any other such thing. Maybe they aren't gil sellers at all, maybe they are just a bunch of friends who have no clue how to play the game and thought it would be cool to have the same name (Hmmm having the same name as your friend in a game? That would be like buying the same brand of clothes!).

Anyway, there is nothing anyone can do to stop them, so ignore them and let them play the game.

~Cdgthug
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#41 Aug 27 2004 at 9:42 AM Rating: Decent
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So basically, bow your head down, take it in the rear, let's get on with our life?

Sorry to be so crude, but generally speaking, people should not stop fighting for what they believe. Your statement above that if one person is doing this, then all he has to do is say that he was feeling generous makes sense. But it's not just one person. It's several people.

Several people in different countries, in fact.

Several people have said it: It's a game, SE makes the rules, SE enforces them.

I add to that: SE doesn't want to enforce it. Since they make the rules, they can change the rules.

As a human, and I think most of you are human too :D, I know that people are not that generous. Except for maybe Mother Theresa. But, if she's still alive, I doubt she's playing FFXI. We who play RPGs have one thing in common: We want to make our characters as powerful and as well equipped as physically possible.

A lower level 50 has tons of stuff they could get for themselves with a couple million gil. Why in <insert diety name here>'s name would they play a game to make gil just to give it away? SE knows this. People don't pay money to play a game in order to be an in game 'generous soul' by giving away all their in game possessions in the hopes of being marked as Father Shadai. For crying out loud, we kill stuff to get stronger. Doesn't sound very nice to me.

But again, if nobody really cares about these people aside from me, then it's a moot point and this thread should just end. Question is, will this thread end?

Edited, Fri Aug 27 10:44:46 2004 by Shadai
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#42 Aug 27 2004 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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I care...

There was a good point on the KI boards. By buying gil you condone their activities. While we are farming, you are in essence the gilseller. On many servers (not sure if this is happening here yet) these gilsellers MPK, they harass, they basically control one area. By buying gil from them, those become your activities.

It's like, if someone accepted a Vermillion Cloak or Scorpion Harness from the most hated person on the server, they would basically become that person. They are condoning his attitude, activities, and his truancy from school.
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#43 Aug 27 2004 at 11:09 PM Rating: Good
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Understanding is not acceptance.

The purpose of my post is to breed understanding. Understading that gil vendors exist, and that SE's hands are tied. I'll tell you what...I already paid for the original software. I'll be paying for the CoP expansion, and I pay my monthly fees. Petitioning SE to hire new people to investigate ongoing gil-vending violations will likely only increase my monthly fee, and, quite frankly, I pay enough already.

I'm not suggesting that people violate their principles by allowing gil-farmers to proceed un-touched. My concern is that based on a lot of posts I've read in this thread, people seem to think that stomping out gil farming would be a quick fix, which it definately is not.

The only advice I can offer is for people to be mature about the situation, and understand that that despite the corperate stigma (ignorance) that pervades our thinking these days, there are limits and time frames that must be dealt with in order to bring about change.

(as a side note, after re-reading my own post, I feel obligated to make it clear that I am not a corperate sympathiser, simply someone who has been around the block a time or two and understands how things work to a certain extent).

Play hard, have fun, be nice, and if forum conversations indicate strongly that certain people are part of a gil farming enterprise, don't group with them. If you find yourself in a group with them, be up front about it...simply say:

/p I'm very sorry...I can't be a part of this group because I have strong reason to believe

/p <person> is a member of a gil farming operation that intends to sell gil online for profit

/p and by helping them level, I am helping them disrupt our ability to play as honest

/p people. I apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused. Good luck!

-----------------

Hey...be a sport about it. Don't be mean, don't be rude.

But as I read through this thread, I'm encouraged by the number of people who choose to stand up on principle. I say to you, keep it up.

But you must pick your battles, and you must wage those battles effectively. Choose your targets, and influence the situation as you are able.

Petitioning SE to crack down on gil farmers is a moot point...they will as they are able to.

If you wish to see this ended, excersize you influence amongst your friends.acquaintances (in a respectful manner) to spread awareness of the situation.

I don't know that I can offer any more advice at this time...please respond with your thoughts/criticisms of my post.

[/i] Edit: Spelling and grammer

[i]Edited, Sat Aug 28 00:11:09 2004 by AureliusSir
#44 Aug 31 2004 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
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Shadai wrote:
Man, Exodus, you make me sound evil.

If the majority of the people playing the game are of the "don't worry about them and leave them be" attitude, then there is no point in continuing this line of thought.

If the majority of the people playing the game are of the "this is wrong and needs to be corrected" attitude, then a REAL solution needs to be formulated.

I refuse to believe that the tool implemented by the software in order to catch dubious acts will not provide the information necessary to prove such acts. SE shouldn't care less of the credit card transactions if their own logs state the obvious. It is not circumstantial. If it is, I would like to see one of you make millions of gil and then distribute it to 60, 70, or 80 people in set amounts of 100k for no in game return whatsoever.

People are not that nice. Especially not multiple people.

"Oh! I have 5 million gil. I think I'll send this random person 100k, this other one 250k, and this one deserves 500k! Oh oh...who else can I give free gil to?"


You say I make you sound evil, but you made me sound heartless! Smiley: lol

Look man, I know how you feel. It's not fair that we bust our asses farming, crafting, NM hunting (in a fair way, not with bots and other things), BCNM, and other methods of making money...and some 12 year old who gets spoiled by his parents who own a yaght somewhere just buy gil for him.

Problem is, and maybe I'm just being negative (life has been cruel to the poor Exo), but we can sit here, cry, beg, and plead...and SE can't do ANYTHING father than ban accounts.

Have you noticed how some Zo____ are missing, but we have a brand new batch of Zo____? I rest my case. The only thing SE can do is ban accounts and IPs...and it's not enough. They can't take any real legal action. 9 times out of 10, these corporations are stationed in countries where their little ToS in the cute lil manual don't exist.

Either SE is powerless to do anything, or they just don't care. All of those Zo___ not only had to buy a copy of the game, but they pay per month. If SE feels greedy, they can ban a few and wait for them to buy a new copy of the game and once again make a new account.

Did you for a split moment there think that because you have a heart, and you care, that OTHER people have one of those and give a hoot? In business, it's all about money. They'd sell their souls if it would increase their profit margin.

It's a sad world we live in.
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#45 Sep 07 2004 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok I just started posting on here, and I want to say that these people suck. I dont really care that they sell gil, that stuff happens in every game. What I care about is how they flat out make this game less enjoyable for us who want to play it fairly. I would like to be able to get my high end equip, myself or with the help of friends. Like the other night when some of my LS helped me get rank 5. We were in Castle Oztroja on our way out, and they wanted to try and get me my Kote. The same people we there as always, so we decided to have some fun. They would bring a crab up, disengage. As soon as it turned yellow again.... Bang Voked. Called a GM, and nothing was ever done.. Big Suprise. Now Like I said I dont care about selling gil, but I would like to beable to get things on my own.
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#46 Sep 09 2004 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
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Sir XvExodusvX wrote:


In business, it's all about money. They'd sell their souls if it would increase their profit margin.

It's a sad world we live in.


I don't necessarily agree with that. While I agree that gil vendors are certainly unscrupulous and thoughtless, lumping business in general under the blanket of heartlessness and greed that seems the pervasive train of thinking isn't really a helpful frame of mind.

All over the free-market world, the goal for financial success is a very straightforward 3 step process:

1) Make money.
2) Make money with money.
3) Make even more money with money.

The cynical approach to this in a real world situation is to look down on wealthy people who are in a position to invest money into various different enterprises, do very little actual work, and still turn a very tidy profit in doing so. We call them lazy, we call them greedy, we tell them they aren't doing their part to further humanity by living life as a pauper and donating all of their enormous wealth to charity.

In reality, money is a commodity. Just like a material item or a person's time (with consent, of course) can be bought, so too can money itself be purchased for a fee.

In fact, the very nature of FFXI practically BEGS people to look at gil as a legitimate commodity. When you think about it, when was the last time you spent a couple of hours doing whatever it is you do to make gil and at the end of it realize that your return may have been good, but it certainly wasn't fantastic? Gil is hard to come buy unless you have developed certain skills that put your abilities in higher demand than the average Joe, and qualifies you to demand a higher price for your services.

Just like banks know that people are willing to pay (over time) to essentially buy some of the bank's money, gil farmers know that people are willing to pay real money to buy gil.

The only legitimate reason we, as "nice" players have for frowning on gil farming is because it's forbidden in the ToS.

When you think about it, saying that gil farmers should be booted from the game because they over-camp NM spawn areas with the intention of using the gil they make from a drop (to sell online for a real world profit) is very much like saying players who camp NMs to sell drops for gil (to buy/do other things in-game) should be banned as well. After all, they crowd NM camping areas just as much as gil-vendors, and they rarely have any intention of using the boots, pin, kote, or what have you.

(I just re-read that last paragraph and it's a little confusing, even though I wrote it, so let me put it a different way).

How is it that gil-vendors, based on their actions in-game, are any worse than legitimate NM campers? How do they have a more negative impact on another player's ability to claim the NM or other farming target?

I don't really think they do. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, I think what's really at issue here is that a LOT of players seem to ALWAYS look for reasons to say that so-and-so is making it more difficult for them to claim NMs/farming targets/mining points, etc.

You have the obvious group that moans and complains when they see the high level camper in Lizzy's spawning area. They come to forums like this and sound off about how the high level should go do something else and leave the low level NM to them.

Not gonna happen.

You have the not-so-often discussed group of people who hate all other miners and assume they must be newbs for allowing the price of valuable ore to plummet in a very short time. (I'm guilty of this myself...when platinum ore went from 40k-20k in about a week, I was choked). We want people to stop undercutting the AH so we can continue to make our expected profits.

Not gonna happen.

The fact of the matter is, in terms of the impact gil-vendors have on our in-game economy and/or our ability to claim NMs etc, they are no different than a group of friends who get together and are just extremely interested in making a ton of gil.

Again, I don't support the idea of gil-vendors. Square has provided us with a great game to play and enjoy, and in return they have asked us (among other things) to not use their service for our own personal financial gain. Respecting that, to me, is just part of being a decent consumer and understanding the nature of a two-way transaction.

However, trying to fully grasp the nature of exactly what's going on with gil-vendors and the tempest their presence has stirred up is key to understanding how to deal with them.

If all of us treated the way we look at a party dynamic the way we look at dating, it would work a lot better. You ask someone out on a date. Throughout the course of your time together, they say next to nothing, insist you pay for most of the costs associated with that date, and you find out halfway through the date from a number of reliable sources that they're just using you to feed them and entertain them before they go off and sleep with their REAL partners, you'd be kind of stupid to date them again, wouldn't you?

It's not too different with gil vendors. You invite them to a party. Throughout the duration of their time in the party, they say next to nothing, ask you for gil, and are really not at all good at their job (leech). You find out later they're a gil vendor and they were in your exp group to level up so they could handle fights with higher-level NMs along with the rest of their gil-vending team.

You'd be pretty stupid to let them into another party, wouldn't you?

Sometimes I just talk too much...
#47 Sep 09 2004 at 9:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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We, as nice players oppose gil vendors not just for violating TOS, but because they do not practice business in a respectable manner. My friend got Mee Deggi while helping a friend with AF, and the gil sellers trained him. Of coure, it's hard to kill a 70 RNG with a few yagudo. But they do this all the time. They MPK, they monopolize zones, they make it harder for the normal player to play the game.

If you buy gil, you support this. Thus, gil buyer = gil seller = scum.

If you see a Zoe, a Xiao, a Ch, or any of the other variations in your party, leave or kick them.
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#48 Sep 10 2004 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
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Ditto on what Lore posted.

In short, these gil-farmers are only successful due to the gil-buyers that keeps driving the demand for buying gil online. I wished everyone can just stop buying these expensive items (archer ring, etc.) that gil-farmers camps. It would help slowing them down.

The day FFXI becomes another MMORPG where there are more bots/gil-farmers than real players.... that is when I'll retired from the game for good =.=
#49 Sep 11 2004 at 9:37 PM Rating: Good
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If you read through this thread (and other "gil-vendor solution" threads), you see evidence of exactly why continuing the mass hysteria over gil farming is not helping anything.

I've read of people who suggest limiting volume/type of AH/delivery transactions to discourage gil farming. Placing restrictions on how the services in the game function is only going to inconvienience the 3000 other people on that server for the sake of what? Trying to drive away a couple dozen gil vendors?

And now (with all due respect, Darkhaze), suggesting that people stop buying the expensive items in the game so that gil farmers have a much more difficult time finding an outlet for their NM camping success. What about the other 3000 people on the server?

People like stereos in their cars. Often, they like nice stereos. Car stereos get stolen a LOT. Should people stop buying car stereos because the criminal element might exploit them?

PLEASE guys...I've put a lot of thought into my posts in this thread (and others on the same subject) to try and provide some information to help us all realize that there will ALWAYS be an element of unscrupulous behaviour in the game. For so long as there are people willing to buy stolen car stereos, there will be people willing to steal them.

For so long as people are willing to buy gil online, there will be people who will find ways to make it and sell it to them. Have an LS member who talks about how they bought gil? Shun them. Tell them their decision to support gil vendors detracts from your experience in the game. If they give you grief about it, blacklist them, and encourage others to do so.

Right now, throughout the free world, an intense debate is raging over what constitutes a suitable sacrifice of personal freedoms for the sake of personal and national security. Gil-vendors are not international terrorists. Nevertheless, suggesting the vast majority of people make redical alterations to how they go about their daily lives for the sake of the actions of a fractional percentage minority will never be an acceptable solution.

Suggesting that people restrict (or be permitted to have restricted) the way they are able to use game services, what they buy and for how much, or how long they can camp a particular NM is not the solution to this problem.

Point of fact, there is no easy solution. There never will be. I'm not suggesting we accept gil farmers, /bow courteously to them when we see them, and go on about our business.

However, if we hope to see a lasting and worthwhile resolution to this situation, we'll need to spend a little more time looking at the big picture.
#50 Sep 12 2004 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Yadda yadda yadda blah blah blah... (please forgive me) I just saw some old friends posting on the board and I wanted to say hello! 3 months left till I return...
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#51 Sep 12 2004 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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All of the Zoe___ players are in fact chineese gamers and yes, they are gil farmers. This was confirmed to me a while ago by a few friends that speak chineese and spoke to them.

Also, there are groups of Zoe___ players in OTHER servers as well.


I'm on Sylph and have nothing to do with this whole gil-farming shindig. I will admit that it would be fun if some rogue-ish, independent folk would sell 100k gil for, say, $8-10, making it MUCH LESS profitable for full-time farmers whilst still feasible for out-and-out quitters to make a decent coin.

As you were.

- Zoelef
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