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Investigation: Profession Gil Making Company?Follow

#1 Aug 18 2004 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Before I begin, please let it be known that this is only a theory based on the observations of several people over the last few weeks. What I am attempting to do is bring this out into the open to allow others to investigate the matter on their own. Once we all reach a suitable conclusion, we can then proceed with some action, or ignore it all together.

Much of the info I am putting below is is based on theory and theory only, which is the reason why I would like more points of view from people that have either noticed the same thing or are willing to take time from their busy adventuring life to go see for themselves.

The accusation is as follows: Several characters have been observed to be on almost 24/7 in limited locations doing nothing but farming several NMs for their precious drops. Normally, this wouldn't be a big deal, but I am sure you will agree that in 3 weeks time, people should sleep.

The observations are:

1) The characters are Beyond, Cocokiki, Anastcia, Fanatic, Dangelo, Eagless.

2)Anastcia and Fanatic hang out in Castle Oztroja hunting for Astral rings

3)Cocokiki, Dangelo, Eagless, and Beyond all camp Ordelle's Caves for Stroper Chyme, using surround and spam tactics to farm Archer Rings.

4)AH records on Siren at any time show one of these people as the major sellers of these drops in history. Very rarely, others manage to make a sell.

5)The characters have been on 24/7 for as long as we have observed, leading us to believe that a rotating staff of people play the characters in order to continue to farm.

6)Equipment on these characters is not optimal for an 'adventurer', even if the focus was on farming.

7)Rank on these characters is at static at level 1, despite being level 50+ characters.

8)Subs for these characters is invariably a very low level pulling class, such as Warrior for provoke. I have observed one as being a level 51 WHM/5 WAR.

9)They use Sleep and Wait tactics to prevent others from pulling a stroper chyme spawn. In other words, if another group or person arrives to camp the stroper, they sleep a spawn until the new person or group leaves in frustration.

10)It is potentially feasible that one person is controlling all the characters in a particular are, since no response is ever elicited from most of them. Albeit, one character in each area may respond to queries. There is no way to prove this, unfortunately.

My conclusion: Gil farming company that sells gil to make Real Life money.

I invite anyone on Siren to help out with this investigation, since multiple reports have been sent to GMs with the only reply of "It is being investigated." Perhaps if enough people reported the issue, some measure of control could be implemented. Again, I do not want to be accused of making false accusations, so see for yourself and make your own conclussions. Thanks!
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#2 Aug 18 2004 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Hi, Shadai ^^

These people must be selling the gil, because they definitely aren't using it to buy new equip. My friend has witnessed Fanatic getting numerous Kotes. Maybe they are hackers, too. <_< >_>

Edited, Wed Aug 18 13:37:14 2004 by WisdomAndLore
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#3 Aug 18 2004 at 11:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Hey Lore!
You said they ARE buying new equipment with it? I've never seen them change their equipment.

I wouldn't go so far as saying that they hack the game, though. I wouldn't be surprised if they did bot, though. This is all speculation, though, and I would like hard evidence before I make that accusation. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to prove bots.
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#4 Aug 18 2004 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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I meant aren't. Sorry, I was about to be late for class. I was half-kidding about the hacking thing. I doubt it, but I wouldn't totally rule it out.
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#5 Aug 18 2004 at 1:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately there is nothing we can do to stop this :(
#6 Aug 18 2004 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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There are certainly some valid reasons to be annoyed or frustrated by either the existence of bots, or 24/7 player teams. It's natural to feel some emotion, since these type of players (if you wish to call them that) are using unconventional and in many cases, illegal methods to advance their characters or pocketbooks.

Final Fantasy is not a linear game though, there is a multitude of choices, ie crafting, fishing, hunting, hanging out, etc. While the practices of those using unethical gaming practices certainly has some impact on the game, in the overall scheme of things, the impact is going to be pretty minimal.

What generally gets overlooked is that the game is above all else, a way for us to have fun, find a diversion from real life, and make some new online friends.

Some of us enjoy acquiring wealth, others the thrill of the hunt and leveling, and yet others, perfecting our crafting. No matter what the gilbots do, it shouldn't get in the way of our enjoyment of the game, the sole exception to this being NM camping, but that's another thread.

Bottom line? In an ideal gaming world, bots, gil sellers, 24/7 tagteams wouldn't exist, and those that did would be dealt with by the GM staff.

We know the GM staff isn't going to make a priority of any of the above, so our best defense is to simply have fun with our friends, level at our own pace, enjoy the company and camraderie.

#7 Aug 18 2004 at 2:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Double post, my apologies

Edited, Wed Aug 18 15:46:22 2004 by Anchorbine
#8 Aug 18 2004 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't get me wrong, I am the first to tell anyone that the whole point of a game is to have fun (Game = Fun). Just ask anyone that knows me :D

However, I am also a great proponent of attaining my own goals instead of paying for them through the AH. I could easily purchase the item dropped from the AH, but I want to get them myself. I am sure I am not the only one that believes in this.

The second thing is that if they are selling Gil, it is a violation of SE's terms of service. If a rule is not going to be enforced, then the rule must cease to exist. It is one way or another.

I have great fun hunting for my own items, and groups like this effectively prevent me from acquiring what I need in the way I would like to acquire it....that is, by killing the creature that drops it. I enjoy spending time with my friends online, and half the time you will find me hanging out with someone in my LS that is leveling while I just sit around and make sure no meanies come and ambush his or her group. (Probably the reason I am still 54 dragoon, hehe.)

This situation does warrant an investigation, and I am hoping that separate minds working on their own will be able to provide me with more information so that I may plan a more concise course of action. After all, if it's in writing, they are legally bound to enforce it...in the US AND in Japan. It's called the Service Agreement for a reason. :D
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#9 Aug 18 2004 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
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I've heard of Dangelo for certain as a gilseller.

Don't forget the Zo* hive of gilfarmers. This group of people aren't a real threat yet (they only have 1-2 characters over level 45) but pretty soon they'll be exactly the same problem, as different people take shifts 'playing' the game, or rather spawn-whoring nm drops like the archer's ring, ochiudo's, monster signa, and otherwise taking over popular farming areas like Beadeaux and Giddeus. Is their aim to monopolize NMs and sell off all their gil? Time will tell.
#10 Aug 18 2004 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello all, I created an account specifically to reply to this thread. I try to enjoy FF11 as much as I can and have fun with my friends. But part of having fun is being good and having good items. When I want an item such as Ochiudo's Kote I don't necessarily want to spend weeks on end trying to come up with 500,000 gil when I am easily capable of killing the NM. I have no problem with competition, but unfair ganging up on you and always being camping prevents me from ever getting my item. How is this fair to me? The point is, it's not fair. That's why it's against the rules, however, the GM's do not honor the rules. Someone tell me what we can do here? I have witnessed this behavior myself and I am to the point where I am going to quit the game. Why won't the GM's help us? Why doesn't Square honor the agreement we are supposedly bound to? I have witnessed these people admit to working shifts of farming to sell the Gil. Also, it's not difficult to see that they never log off, EVER. A normal person would have fallen asleep or died of lack of sleep from this. This is a HUGE problem. What can we do?
#11 Aug 19 2004 at 12:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I have also witnessed this 24/7 hunt! And the only conclusion i can come to, aside from protesting SE, is contacting a lawyer! All that have posted apparently understand the "user terms and Agreement" , so by this we understand that it takes two parties to uphold the agreement. We as players have a contract(so to speak) with the game providers! Now, the investigating I've done is that in the User Terms and Agreement, we the players agree that we are fully responsible for our characters and that no one else is supposed to have access to our accounts/characters. And for these players to be on 24/7 for a month (at least) shows that they have violated their end of the contract. We realize it is imposible for one human to have all these characters on 24/7. so either they are botting or allowing others to access their accounts/characters. Both of wich are a violation of the "agreement".
Which brings up the issue of "breech of contract" between us (the customer) and SE/pol. So my conclusion is that we are being robbed. They agreed to offer us a service for a fee and now they have failed us in not giving us that service. We have cryed out for weeks for GM's to do something to stop this! We know they have the ability to check any and all records to prove they dominate the market and they NEVER log out! (or the evidence to prove there is a violation) And still you and I are paying for a GM to do nothing!? This is an outrage! Other players should not have to quit this game out of frustration!
In conclusion I'd like to say "United we stand, divided we fall!" We need to contact SE and POL and anyone else directly involved with the game! Our monthly fee goes to these people to keep us happy and i for one am NOT a happy customer! This is something that sits on the line of "Class action Lawsuit!" yes i said it!! If I pay for something like this, I should not be dissatisfied due to people getting away with breaking the rules! It is NOT fair! and I don't pay to be treated unfairly!
#12 Aug 19 2004 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Based on the people I have talked to, a lawsuit really is a viable option, but only if we gather enough resources of our own. So far, evidence is mostly circumstantial, and the majority of us don't want to stand guard and watch these people to log their actions. It is true that SE has all the necessary logs to validate our information, but at this point, a lawsuit would mean that they are our opponents. Thus, it is unlikely they will provide us with the information in order to settle the dispute.

There may be a multitude of reasons the GMs aren't doing anything. The latest report ended with the following line from the GM:

"You did not provide enough evidence to support your claim. I am sorry."

Despite having the logs to view the evidence for themselves, they insist that there is no problem. I have heard claims that the gil companies paid off the GMs, but this is only speculation, again. My suggestion is that we gather our own data in order to present it to as a group. We will still be the minority, however, so it won't be easy at all.

Be aware, however, that any lawsuit brought against SE will more than likely have your account cancelled for the 'duration of the settlement'. Many of us don't really want to go that far. The question is, is there any other option?
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#13 Aug 19 2004 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
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I wonder if we could train a Yagudo High Priest all the way to the Deggi camp...it would be easier than a lawsuit. =p
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#14 Aug 19 2004 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Too funny Lore!

Felex has actually contemplated on spawning the DRK AF2 NM and training it to the Ordelle's Caves camper's site.

PS> I am not condoning this behaviour :D
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#15 Aug 20 2004 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok... whats up with the Zo*'s? I started to see them a few months ago.... they are not at a high level yet.... I was in Jueno teleporting people around and one of them sends me a /tell

I wanted to try to get some info... if I could about who they are... so I say hi back...

He asks me what I'm doing and I tell him a few mins later he asks why I keep leaving (duh, I just told him) and ask what he's doing he says "talking"

Then he asks how much gil I've got..... so I tell him (lied I have more) I say 20k

about 20 mins go by, he sends me another /tell and says "Give me money"

I told him I couldn't do to some reason, and he stops. I don't think he knew what I said or knew what he was trying to say, In a way I'm not sure if he wanted me to sell him my gil or what? Does anyone have any ideas on these guys? Are they gil sellers?
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#16 Aug 20 2004 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol almost everytime I say hi to 1 of them they either say (I don't speak any English.) or ask for gil.
#17 Aug 21 2004 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I have partied with the Zo____s, and the only time any of them talked was the original /tell to join the party. This was the worst party I have ever been in, not because they didn't talk, but because they were pulling vts and ts with a full party.

Shadai wrote:
It is true that SE has all the necessary logs to validate our information, but at this point, a lawsuit would mean that they are our opponents. Thus, it is unlikely they will provide us with the information in order to settle the dispute.


With sufficent evidence, you can get a court order to force them to turn over the records. This would be difficult, because SE no doubt has several excellent lawyers that would be able to keep this case on ice, which would end up costing anyone attempting such a suit a lot of money. (Corporations don't like to be brought to court)

(I am not a lawyer - just happen to know a bit about the justice system)

~Cdgthug
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#18 Aug 21 2004 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I think you'd have a virtually impossible time taking any type of legal action against them, since the TOS we agree too pretty much states it's their game, they set the rules, and they enforce the rules as they wish.

There is nothing in the TOS that mandates they must enforce their own rules, only that they can, if they wish too.
#19 Aug 23 2004 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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To clear up the air a bit.

All of the Zoe___ players are in fact chineese gamers and yes, they are gil farmers. This was confirmed to me a while ago by a few friends that speak chineese and spoke to them.

Also, there are groups of Zoe___ players in OTHER servers as well.


Why do they suck at the game though? Simple. They either get the game in english or in japaneese, but of which they don't understand. The translator is useless to them...they have NO real way of knowing what the **** they are doing.

You know who's to blame for them having characters already over lv40+? We are. Yes, us.

When you get a crappy player in your party and not boot them out, YOU create the "high level n00b" problem. They had to get there one way or another, didn't they? The Zoe___ only form of leveling would be with each other, and it should be left that way.

That's just my opinion. SE won't do anything, they don't have a reason to. You know how many "I'm about to quit FFXI cause farming sucks" players stayed in the game when they found out it's just $20 to get 50k? Do you think a simple little ToS is punishable to the "highest extent of the law?"

Let's be real. The MOST SE will do is ban the user names and IP address, and if I, one wee little man with a keyboard and too much free time at work, can figure a way around that, imagine a group of coperate people that are DETERMINED to get real life money off of the ignorant (or well...lazy? lol).


There is no point in beating the dead horse on this topic. All we can do is /sigh and move on. This happens in ALL games, there's nothing we can do.
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#20 Aug 23 2004 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I hate to say it but Exodus has a point. Any private legal action is bound to fail when going against a corporation on such a trivial matter. And the fact is, this is a trivial matter. I doubt anyone would take it seriously.

That doesn't mean it's not a problem, though. I am going to continue looking into it and see if I can find a loophole somewhere that will give us an edge. In the end, maybe we can prevent a mass exodus of players due to unfair rules.

In the meantime, let's continue to try to have some fun while we can.....and avoid the ulcers :D
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#21 Aug 23 2004 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You know who's to blame for them having characters already over lv40+? We are. Yes, us.

When you get a crappy player in your party and not boot them out, YOU create the "high level n00b" problem. They had to get there one way or another, didn't they? The Zoe___ only form of leveling would be with each other, and it should be left that way.


I have to disagree with you Exodus. Kicking someone out of your party is what creates the "high level n00b" problem. Keeping them in your party and trying to educate them, that is what will solve it. If they don't listen, then no matter what you do, they are a lost cause. Not to mention, there are some very nice people that just can't play very well (some are in fact on your /befriend cool dude thread). Kicking them out would feel bad.

As for the gilfarmer matter, I really don't care. Yes, it is wrong; but I'm not going to let a bunch of cheaters and wierdos ruin my gaming experience.
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#22 Aug 23 2004 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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I would have to agree with you on this.

But, How would you seperate normal users, that leave
their character logged in when they go to work?

I leave my character logged in 24/7 unless a storm.
Sell stuff from my character during the day.

Im I now required to log off when not sitting directly in front of the PC?

Im not a professional gil making company, unless you think
making about 2-3k in a 8 hour period.
#23 Aug 23 2004 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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We aren't talking about people who leave their character on and Bazaar while at work or asleep. These are people who leave provoke bots on 24/7 to get mobs like Stroper Chymes and Mee Deggi.
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#24 Aug 24 2004 at 9:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I just wanted to ensure that what we are talking about.

I agree that the NM camp bots and others should be stopped.

I really dont have a job that is able to go out and hunt
these things out.

But, I have heard on my LS the problems some LS members
are having.
#25 Aug 24 2004 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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Elajeh wrote:
I have also witnessed this 24/7 hunt! And the only conclusion i can come to, aside from protesting SE, is contacting a lawyer! All that have posted apparently understand the "user terms and Agreement" , so by this we understand that it takes two parties to uphold the agreement. We as players have a contract(so to speak) with the game providers!......................................


Let's not get too carried away here ^^

When the ToS says that we're responsible for our characters and shouldn't let other people use them, it's just Square warning you that if someone else uses your character for something that violates the ToS, telling Square it was someone else using your character isn't going to stop you from getting banned/suspended.

As far as the gil farmers go, we, as a group, need to stop with this, "The GMs dont' enforce the rules" nonsense. They DO enforce the rules, but this isn't the People's Court where you're guaranteed to see a resolution in a 15 minute segment.

Take fish botting for example. You're SURE you've found a fish bot! They aren't responding to your /tells, they're in the same area all the time just fishing. Everything points to the fact that this person is a bot, so you call a GM. The GM says they'll look into it and the next day you see the same person in the same spot fishing. Does that mean the GM didn't look into it? NO! It could mean a lot of different things, and it's not appropriate for us to assume that the GM hasn't done anything because the situation hasn't changed to your satisfaction on your timetable.

The same goes for gil farmers. If they aren't using voke bots to get the job done, there's not a single thing that can be done to stop them right now. There's no rule against grouping together and camping mobs for drops. There's no time limit on how long you can spend doing it. The only way Square can step in is if they can trace the flow of gil from the gil farmers to someone who paid for it on the same server. Considering the price of gil these days, in order to be absolutely positive they were getting the right person, they'd pretty much have to buy the gil online and then track the flow of gil to/from the person who sends it to them on the server. That's a few hundred dollars for Square to invest per person, PER SERVER to curb gil farming, and that's likely to only stop one person and maybe a few others associated with them.

I know it's frustrating, and I certainly don't approve, but (as you may have noticed from this post) it's even MORE frustrating when people vent and rant on about how Square isn't doing anything to stop this. It's NOT a quick fix for Square, and they'd have to spend tens of thousands of dollars every month to stop the gil farmers currently in the game, knowing full well that there would be another batch signing up the following month.

Please try to be realistic about it...it's a lot less frustrating when you fully comprehend the nature of the situation.
#26 Aug 24 2004 at 1:34 PM Rating: Decent
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I can see how it would take so much RL money to investigate these problems, but if they were true problem solvers they would see that all the information is there for them already.

Process of selling Gil:

1) Earn the gil in game
2) Sell it on the web to someone with a character on same server
3) E-Mog gil to character in game
4) Wash rinse repeat.

Now take into account the following:

1) All E-Mog transfers are logged
2) All character activity is logged
3) SE has detailed records of which accounts have multiple characters

Finally, the pattern to search and destroy:

1) Massive E-Mogs of standard amounts of Gil
2) Massive time logged as being active, not in Bazaar mode without movement, not in mog house, not moving from zone to zone.
3) Time logged gives no chance for human required rest in the slightest.
4) No E-Mogs coming in, only going out.
5) In the case of one bank character, all Gil E-Mogs going to a single character at any point in time.

If a player points out a potential problem, SE only has to pull records pertaining to the people involved. Being a programmer, I can say that getting such information from game databases is easy, easy, and, oh yeah.....easy. The patterns above will stand out like a sore thumb.

If they get rid of that account, and the person returns with another account, or if another person starts up a farming account....well, it happens. But you know, in real life, the police don't give up on murders just because it's bound to happen again sometime soon, somewhere else, by someone else. It's an honor thing, and being a Japanese company, I see SE greatly losing face in this matter.
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