Dynamis and your LSFollow

Don't ask me why Lemonade decided to finally dump its Dyna on tshot's calendar today, but I can assure you it wasn't to "f*ck you guys over" or something. Lemon has always done Dyna at 5:30 on Tuesday, so why it wasn't up on tshot's site: no idea. However by looking at that calendar, you guys from DBS aren't on it, still...

/waits for the DBS guys to go ballistic and say: "We use our calendar like everybody should."
Ok... explain to me why exactly? Let's use your argument for not using the nice little tool tshot provided: "Tshot(/SF) doesn't call the shots on this server!" Now your site is run by another LS (DBS) than SF, but has the exact same purpose according to you guys. So I could actually say: "DBS doesn't run this server!" and not use yours. This was just hypothetical, but is true according to your logic.

I am 100% sure that if Bedrock dumped this on an "completely not linkable to any LS" site, there would be no whining whatsoever, but now there is, because it is on SF's site and zomg you have to put effort in to get to the url /dies.

I really don't see any excuse to use your calendar over that on SF's site. Especially if you just copy-paste stuff from SF's site and then dump it on yours (want me to pull the quotes out of this topic to back this up or the tells ingame?). What is the use of just copy-pasting it and adding yours?! It is just a tool, which Bedrock dumped on his site. I can't blame him for placing it there, nice idea, he should get credit for it and not have to make it anonymous because some people will think for some reason that it is SF trying to call the shots.

Sorry Lemonade placed its dyna so late on SF's site and no, we don't check DBS' calendar, at least I don't. Why should I? For copy-pasted stuff from SF's site? I'll just go to SF's site, where your stuff could be added too. In retrospect: if you placed it on SF's site, we were open for discussion since we would then see it/know it. Sorry that I don't go to your site for just your dyna schedule, because you don't want to enter your dyna's on an already established site, with an established calendar, which is just as unbiased as you claim your site is. I haven't heard one good excuse to use your site instead of Bedrock's (and don't give me "easy url" stuff kthxbai)

As for the drama on Russta's LJ...
I can't really blame the new shells for not knowing, now they do and every future dyna shell has this little topic to help them with organizing dyna's. Just a little beginner's mistake for the new shells, which prolly won't happen again, so we are all happy in the end since the shell in Russta's LJ is at least willing to use the calendar on SF's site ^^b

disclaimer:
My views don't necasarrily represent the views of Lemon as a whole, it is just my view on the matter.

Well I'm in Lemon and I actually didn't know, I might have if I looked at DBS' site I guess...

As for Jeuno, you expected us to know about the copy-pasted calendar from SF's + your dyna calendar added? That's like asking that these new dyna shells know that there is a calendar on which they can sign up, without there being a topic on it on some major forum. We didn't know about your calendar and when it got mentioned it was copy-pasted from SF's I laughed and wondered why they went through all that trouble for something that already exists.

Fuzz you just spat that back in your own face. We have been established for a while. You cannot stand there and tell me with us being around for 2 months that at least one of the leaders in Lemonade did not know we existed. You even have members registered to our forums. If we have to take the initiative to check with others (because apparently that is what you say we must do) THEN SO DO YOU!!!

Why did you not ask Airamis earlier today what OUR plans were? I know why, BECAUSE YOU GUYS SEE US AS INFERIOR TO YOURSELVS AND COULD GIVE A HOOT ABOUT US!!!

If you want us to play this game by some rules that were set up by linkshells such as yourselvs, YOU SHOULD TAKE INITIATIVE TO FOLLOW THEM TOO!

EVERY Dynamis linkshell should be doing this weather they have been around long or not and you "established" linkshells need to recognize new ones when YOU KNOW they are there and do the same in asking them.

Yes we are established. We have more than enough members and a victory under our belt to prove it. When you come in and simply deny our existance and claim you have more authority in getting an area without doing YOUR research, you are becomeing the lowest of low. You are doing the "do as I say not as I do" routine and it is showing everyone else your ture selves.

It was stated those calanders ARE NOT SET and YOU need to communicate (as well as us) to other linkshells about what is going on. Airamis did not recieve ONE tell from you guys and thought we had our time we asked for.

Ugh, people like yourself are what makes doing Dynamis SO unpleasent for newer people.

It was empty because we use the tshot calendar. If Aramis cannot produce a -valid- reason why we should switch over, then we will not. As long as he continues to post in his own and ignores the tshot calendar, he will not be heard.

The fact that you guys want so badly for us to check the calander when we schedule things (which Airamis did) and yet you guys refuse to do the same thing (check with other linkshells) is the most annoying and appaling thing of all. You claim Airamis did not use the calander when in fact he did because that is why he sceduled it for Sand O'ria.

What about all the other Dynamis linkshells that are older than you guys who don't use the calander. Are you planning on ignoring them too?

Edited, Tue Oct 25 23:03:44 2005 by Rohon

Starting another post so as not to dilute the intent of the post earlier on. I hope to discuss the flaws of this dynamis-schedule/calender system with you folks and work to see if there can be any other better alternatives.

This concept of dynamis scheduling system is awesome. The original intent is to inform others that your ls will be doing a run at said-time said-place. It is also hoped that should there be any conflicts of schedule, the corresponding affected ls can work out a compromise. I believe this was what Bedrock intended based on my interactions with him in the past before, as well as from reading through his repeated tired replies to various accusations of him creating the website to "book" the area.

Sadly, complications come in when people start to assume or assert unstated rules. Here are some examples:

Said-established dynamis ls has been doing dynamis for quite some time. Oftentimes (not ALWAYS but very often or maybe most of the time) they would be doing at said-day said-time. Now for the question - what if a newly established dynamis ls has to choose a similar time slot to accommodate most of its player base due to the regional zone timing?

a) most ideally, both linkshell leaders would work together to work out a compromise.

"ideally" is a naive term I am using loosely here because there are many technical setbacks preventing that from happening.

Dice-roll randoms have been suggested as what some japanese linkshells do. However, for such a scenario to occur, both linkshells must have already been gathered and ready to enter at the point of dispute. If the scenario was newly-established ls is fully gathered and ready to go whereas established ls has only half of its member online and/or ready to go at the same time - what happens?

- insist that they still roll it out and if they lose, leave the area even though the established ls is not fully gathered yet? This is plain selfish to me if it is the case because established ls may or may not have full turnout of members on that day. The newly-established ls have gathered their members and are ready to go, first come first basis, no?

- warp the above scenario with: newly established ls has to start an hour earlier than the established ls's schedule so as to cater to its members who have to sleep before a certain timing for work/school the next day. How now? Does established ls insists that they wait an hour later to roll and see who has rights to the area? (pure arrogance if so). Or does established ls insists that they have been doing said-place said-time since eons ago and hence they have the rights to the area? (also another no-no)

Sadly, the above scenarios (which DO happen, not just hypothetical ones conjured from the yards of my deamland) drive to this point which I am trying to make and discuss:

The original system with good intentions become warped when people start to assert unstated rules, to the extent that they collaborate and support each other in order to float this "ruling" that they have agreed upon.

Tell me, who has the "rights" to the area in the above two scenario that I have given? There are people who will chip in "BUT we stated that we are doing the run on said-day said-time said-place since 3 weeks ago or months ago!"

So? Big deal. Remember, the original intent of the calender is not to book, nor should it be. If there is a conflict, hopefully a compromise or resolution can be come up with. However, given the dynamic factors being considered (especially with one ls having to start an hour earlier or so), what happens?

If I could be allowed to express my opinion here without being shred to pieces by flames, I would say - First Come First Serve Basis rules best. Whoever can gather their members first and be ready at the location has the rights to the area. You who come later just queue up patiently or call it a day. Disagree? Then gather and start earlier. Alternatively, you can gather and start at the same time, to which the dice-roll random solution can be applied. Screaming unfairness or demanding that ls to wait an hour later for a dice roll with you after you have consolidated your members is nonsensical.

Of course, people can argue that there will be idiots who will purposely set their schedule 15 minutes before yours. Think about it this way: if they are bent on ******** you over, dynamis calender or not they will still go ahead and ***** you over and start their run despite your protests.


Most amusingly though, this system has a fundamental flaw which cause it to fail:

Not every dynamis ls uses the same calender nor can you force them to abide by it even if they are (Diulay has been quoted as an example in the LJ discussion threads for being a ls who does as they please).

A very realistic situation that had happened was, the ls that took Dynamis Jeuno had originally chose to go Windurst but another Japanese ls had taken it. The latter ls did not complain or make a big fuss about it, afterall, the japanese had come first. Given, the latter ls chose another location to do their run but they had then believed in the first-come-first-server basis, not just to ***** anyone over for the fun/sake of it.

Also, for those snobbish elitists out there with comments like "but hey, they have under-lvl 70 jobs there" or "they have fewer members than us and/or lousier gears etc and hence cannot clear the area", I say - to get off your high horse and be humble!

Everyone started being new to Dynamis. Initially when NA started, we wiped alot even with a full run of 64 (I was there too). Eventually people grew with experience. So give others a chance to experience and learn from it too. Saying belittling remarks like "too few members and/or low level jobs and hence wasting another ls's time who could have completed the area" is downright snobbish and arrogant. Guess what? All players pay the same fees to get into dynamis (1 million gils for the hour glass). All players pay the same monthly fees (not considering mules etc). What gives you the right to look down on others?

Humble up please. And if you really want to do that area, here is a tip: gather and ready your members earlier. Early bird catches the worm. Get it?

edited for typo and grammer

Edited, Tue Oct 25 23:59:42 2005 by iamsix

Ok, it seems to me that everyone wants a peaceful resolve to this, but no one seems to be able to drop their cyber ego long enough to sit down and talk. The problem with this game is that everyone is thinking about themselves, and what they want. Lemonade wants this....DBSDynamis wants that....Spike Flail wants both...Solstice just wants to get their stuff done...If the leaders of each LS (and I'm only saying this to some, seeing as how Solstice and DBS has not shown too much) would just drop their ego and try and work together like adults (or at least try to, because I'm sure somebody is 16 or so) and DECIDE to do something and work on it, isntead of wine and ***** like the little ******* ******* they are, something might get done. If everyone works together on this, then everything will become much more easier, and more people will get what they want faster. SO STOP ACTING LIKE ******** and just SIT THE **** DOWN AND TALK.......that's the end of my rant.



In case you don't know who I am, my name is Rodin, I'm on Ragnarok, and am in DBSDynamis. We're not a "Noob LS" so don't even for one second thing that we're just some passing LS that doesn't know what the hell we're doing.

Airamis didn't receive a /tell from a Lemon sack because nobody in Lemon knew about DBS' calendar until after our run had started.

And if you had been established for "a while" (I remember seeing someone with a pearl a few months ago), you should have well known about the calendar on tshot.org - if you didn't then I feel it's your own fault for not trying to communicate with other linkshells.

And yes poekie, if a new shell takes 15 people into a dynamis they do not stand a chance at clearing - if Lemon ever considered doing a run with less than a full ally I wouldn't join because you would just be throwing exp and gil away.

It still comes back to the point that airamis is either unwilling or unable to use the tshot calendar and cannot or will not provide a valid reason why - if you are copy/pasting info to update your own "calendar", why not simply use the tshot one in the first place?

edit: double


Edited, Wed Oct 26 08:31:07 2005 by Poekie

Now this is an entertaining thread. I was not able to read it all in high detail but it is funny. For the outsider this is what I gathered:

(1) Some linkshell or group of linkshells on a server decided to get together and crown themselves gods of Ragnarok. They even write their own moral code.

(2) New linkshells come along and they aren't part of the "click" so they get bullied.

(3) Since they can't fit into the click they try their own organization method. Therefore the gods must punish them. "Thou shalt not ignore the gods."

My thoughts:

(1) The original bunch must be a group of high schoolers because I haven't seen this type of behavior in 25 years.

(2) SE should have thought of this problem. So there must be some high schooler at SE who enjoys seeing fights. Remember the gatherings in the school yards?

You guys are funny.

I don't have anything against high schoolers. Many are extremely smart. They just lack wisdom. Wisdom ages like wine.

By the way, when do you guys in Lemonade, TShot, and company graduate? 2012? I want to be sure to leave you a congradulatory message.

Please continue. Don't stop for me. Thanks for the laughs!

The two members weren't in there to ***** anyone up. In fact, I was logging on as lemon was finishing up the final boss yesterday (go go real life keeping me away from dynamis). They bailed after the boss instead of sticking around to farm. When the decision was made, those two members you say were holding you up weren't there. One had dced and came back and died. He wasn't even aware at first that everyone had left. The other temp logged due to something in real life. When emergencies happen, you don't always think about how temp logging ties up another group for getting into dynamis. Nobody was trying to ***** any other shell over.

{Excuse me...} {Please listen.} or read, but anyways, I be digressin'. TShot's calendar appears to be superfluously exclusive. One must register and then send a tell ingame to have one's desired Dynamis run time posted. Whereas, www.dynamiscalendar.com allows anyone to register, and onry LS leaders can post the times for when they would like to do runs. The updates are relatively quick and are posted in accordance to who posted it first. Should a LS wish to do a specific Dynamis run that others have scheduled, they can discuss in the forums civilly and perhaps work out a compromise. Now, apprise me, whichu of the 2 methods is better? Let's not talk about "whainternets the tsoht calandar has been around since 18 aught 3!!~", but ease of use and communication. Does it not behoove everyone to use the simplest and most logical methods to communicate with others? No calendar is official, but it makes sense for all to use the most logical one to effectively communicate with one another.

Keep posting runs at TShot too, this isn't a post to make things exclusive, but inclusive. I would like to see everyone put forth their best efforts to communicate with one another effectively and, at the moment, dynamiscalendar.com provides that in the best form.