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Omnibus Politics Thread: Campaign 2016 EditionFollow

#2902 May 02 2017 at 9:00 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
1. Trump and/or his team is secretly in league with the Russians and are putting their interests above those of the US, and in return the Russians helped Trump during the campaign by leaking information stolen from the DNC servers. The Obama administration, out of concern about this potential collusion, and the impact it may have on the election engaged the intelligence services to spy on Trump's team to find out what was going on. The kept this surveillance secret out of a national security need.
With everything you know and have heard about Cheeto-Boy, you think he's above colluding with anyone for his own profit and aggrandizement. REALLY?


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#2903 May 02 2017 at 10:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
1. Trump and/or his team is secretly in league with the Russians and are putting their interests above those of the US, and in return the Russians helped Trump during the campaign by leaking information stolen from the DNC servers. The Obama administration, out of concern about this potential collusion, and the impact it may have on the election engaged the intelligence services to spy on Trump's team to find out what was going on. The kept this surveillance secret out of a national security need.
With everything you know and have heard about Cheeto-Boy, you think he's above colluding with anyone for his own profit and aggrandizement. REALLY?


I can't say what he is or isn't willing to do. I can only comment on the lack of evidence in support of this one specific claim. You literally have nothing more than "some people claim he is". That's it. You can't even say who "some people" are, can you? I mean, everyone talks about it, but where is the source? There isn't one. Just one news report, that points to another news report, that points to someone else in the media making the claim, and ultimately maybe comes back to some less than reputable sources quoting their own "unnamed sources" as support.

I'll take the rumors seriously the moment there's more evidence then pure speculation.

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You're the one who's buying fully into something, not me. I'm skeptical because there is no evidence. Silly me for finding that a sufficient reason to be skeptical.
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#2904 May 02 2017 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Also, and I know I've mentioned this before, but it is kinda relevant. The claim itself doesn't even make sense. How exactly is anyone even thinking that this supposed collusion occurred? Let's assume for the moment that the Russians did indeed hack the DNC servers, and they did indeed hand the contents of said server to wikileaks. Um.. Where does Trump come in here? We might speculate that Trump could be secretly calling up Putin and coordinating the release of specific tidbits of information they had (although, they'd have to also secretly share the information as well, so he and his team could figure out what would best be leaked when for maximum effect or something), but that all fails when you realize that the entire theory assumes that the Russians handed the info to Wikileaks and then Wikileaks leaked it. Wikileaks, not the Russians was in control off what information was released, and when.

So are we saying that Trump was somehow secretly communicating with Julian Assange to coordinate those releases? How exactly does that not get noticed, given where he is? And all of this to do what? Something that Trump didn't need to be involved in at all in the first place? There's a point at which the sheer contortions you have to go to in order to support the narrative just don't work anymore. We have to assume that the Russians secretly wanted Trump to win and not Clinton, despite every historical indication that her foreign policy would be better for them than the unknown Trump. We then have to assume that their method of achieving this was to hack into the DNC to get some dirt on Clinton and her associates. And then we have to assume that, having found said dirt, sometime in June of 2016, instead of holding onto it to use as leverage against what seemed to be a nearly sure bet of a future Clinton president they decide instead to use it in the slim hope of hurting her election shot and getting Trump to win instead. But instead of leaking it themselves, via any of a number of methods they could have used, and which would have allowed them to control the release, they instead hand it off to Assange and just kinda hope he'll do what they want with it?

The whole thing is way too complicated. It's a white cat and a monocle short of Bond villain level silliness. The real world doesn't actually operate like the folks who write screenplays might want you to think. It simply doesn't make any sense. What makes a lot more sense is that the whole thing started out as opposition narrative, and then grew out of the need for those who lost the election to come up with an explanation other than "we totally misread the voters, and ran a terrible candidate to boot. Oh and got overly arrogant about the whole thing too. And maybe we shouldn't have pushed so much of our nutty agenda on the people of the country for the last 8 years too".

Yeah. That.

Edited, May 2nd 2017 10:05pm by gbaji
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#2905 May 03 2017 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
GBATE!! Never saw it coming
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gbaji wrote:
A greedy businessman would never, ever work with another greedy businessman (or businessmen) to increase their mutual profits
Gotcha.
gbaji wrote:
There's a point at which the sheer contortions you have to go to in order to support the narrative just don't work anymore.
Yes. I have to do insane mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Trump is most likely a corrupt, greedy a$$h0le.

It's just me. No one ever came to an similar conclusion in all of recorded history.

Edited, May 3rd 2017 12:17am by Bijou
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#2906 May 03 2017 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
I'll take the rumors seriously the moment there's more evidence then pure speculation.
It's not like he was born in Kenya or anything.
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#2907 May 03 2017 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I'll take the rumors seriously the moment there's more evidence then pure speculation.
It's not like he was born in Kenya or anything.
Everything makes more sense if you assume there was a plot to supply him with a covert birth certificate. It's the only way to get the other conspiracy theories to fit in! Smiley: tinfoilhat

Edited, May 3rd 2017 12:52pm by someproteinguy
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#2908 May 03 2017 at 1:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The whole thing is way too complicated. It's a white cat and a monocle short of Bond villain level silliness.
Some people would have just assumed Russia was spying on both presidential candidates, because they spy on us all the time, and it's a potentially good source of information, and it doesn't require any weird twists of logic or conspiracy theories. But where's the fun in that? Smiley: rolleyes

Edited, May 3rd 2017 12:52pm by someproteinguy
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#2909 May 03 2017 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The whole thing is way too complicated.

It's really not, unless you pull off some logic gymnastics to arrive at a complicated view of it. Pretzel logic, if you will.
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#2910 May 03 2017 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Putin* wants Trump president. Putin hacks DNC (as well as attempts elsewhere but DNC gets through) and gets material, passes it along to Assange who is anti-Clinton & anti-US and is a good source for distribution. Putin, who also has contacts within the Trump campaign, drops information to Trump so he can coordinate responses to the days Wikileaks drops. Conversations about Ukraine, Syria, Trump business interests in Russia, etc as well -- after all Putin's doing Trump favors.

None of this is especially complicated or takes any sort of mental gymnastics to figure out. You can argue that it's not true and I'm not stating it as fact but, c'mon, this is pretty simple shit.

Even if Trump didn't come through on exactly what Putin wanted, having an inexperienced and incompetent guy in the White House only helps Putin. Look at the Syria attack; Putin couldn't have planned that better. Completely ineffective and didn't do shit but gives Putin a pretext to cut coordination with the US thus making any future attacks on Assad much more difficult and allows Putin to increase military presence in the region under the excuse of protection against US aggression. Putin doesn't need Trump to be his buddy, he just needs him in office being Trump.

*Putin being shorthand for the Russian government in general, Trump being shorthand for the Trump campaign & machine in general, etc
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#2911 May 03 2017 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Today I learned that "maga' is Nigerian for "dunce".

The more you know...
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#2912 May 04 2017 at 8:17 AM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Everything makes more sense if you assume there was a plot to supply him with a covert birth certificate.
Well, everything makes sense if you just assume anything you disagree with is a conspiracy.
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#2913 May 04 2017 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is there some sort of fallacy where you make something needlessly complicated so you can argue that it's unrealistic since it's so (pseudo-) complicated?
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#2914 May 04 2017 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I thought the whole "surveillance" thing came about because of suspected money laundering by Russian nationals, in which Trump's name, or the names of people involved in his campaign, came up. Trump wasn't being "wiretapped" by our side; he was just caught up in a wide net.

That's on our side. On the Russian side I imagine it's pretty much as Jophiel posited above; they spied on both sides, kept whatever they found (or already knew) about Trump for insurance and did what they could to influence the election to go the way they wanted. With, I may add, remarkable timing and success.
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#2915 May 04 2017 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Is there some sort of fallacy where you make something needlessly complicated so you can argue that it's unrealistic since it's so (pseudo-) complicated?
Personal incredulity?
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#2916 May 04 2017 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
On the Russian side I imagine it's pretty much as Jophiel posited above; they spied on both sides, kept whatever they found (or already knew) about Trump for insurance and did what they could to influence the election to go the way they wanted. With, I may add, remarkable timing and success.
Adding, of course, even if they were to fail to influence the election it's still a success. They've done a great job of undermining trust between both parties and the intelligence community, created a lot of infighting, and made a lot of people look foolish in the eyes of the public.
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#2917 May 04 2017 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Is there some sort of fallacy where you make something needlessly complicated so you can argue that it's unrealistic since it's so (pseudo-) complicated?
Was going to say, oh that's just another twist on the same ol' strawman thing. But given the amount of time and effort put in it probably deserves it's own name, if there isn't one already.
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#2918 May 04 2017 at 1:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
Was going to say, oh that's just another twist on the same ol' strawman thing. But given the amount of time and effort put in it probably deserves it's own name, if there isn't one already.
I'm offering "Mechanical Strawman", You knock it down just like a regular strawman, but first you need to fit together five hundred little unnecessary parts.
Samira wrote:
That's on our side. On the Russian side I imagine it's pretty much as Jophiel posited above; they spied on both sides, kept whatever they found (or already knew) about Trump for insurance and did what they could to influence the election to go the way they wanted.

Indeed

Edited, May 4th 2017 3:00pm by Jophiel
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#2919 May 04 2017 at 2:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll add "Rube Goldberg Strawman" for consideration.
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#2920 May 05 2017 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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IKEA Strawman?
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#2921 May 05 2017 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Hm, I like that. It implies effort and lack of understanding.
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#2922 May 05 2017 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Are there meatballs?

There should be meatballs.
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#2923 May 05 2017 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
Are there meatballs?
It's mostly filler, not much meat.
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#2924 May 08 2017 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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So the Senate's healthcare bill is being written by twelve men, one Ted Cruz, and no women. Considering they can only lose like two voters to get it passed that sounds like they're purposefully trying to fail.
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#2925 May 08 2017 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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Listening to the Senate Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee on crime and terrorism, question Sally Yates remind me of the Watergate hearings. This is why I feel we need an independent councilor appointed to look into the links between 45's campaign committee and appointees to the White House staff.
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#2926 May 09 2017 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trump just fired James Comey. Guess he wants a new guy to be FBI Director as they investigate his Russian links.

Edit: I should preemptively note that that is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Comey has bungled the Clinton email thing horribly and doesn't really deserve to be in his position. That said, I question that Trump was all that concerned about repeated errors that made Clinton look bad.

Edited, May 9th 2017 5:05pm by Jophiel
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#2927 May 09 2017 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Strongly worded letter.

Memo 1 2 3 .

Edited, May 9th 2017 7:11pm by Timelordwho
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#2928 May 09 2017 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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Removed.

Edited, May 9th 2017 7:03pm by Timelordwho
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#2929 May 09 2017 at 5:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Rosenstein's big complaint seems to be that Comey let Clinton off too easy.
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#2930 May 09 2017 at 5:12 PM Rating: Good
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Memo leaks appear to be done via this guy who is, interestingly a slavic alt-right political apparachik who was part of Trump's election machine.
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#2931 May 09 2017 at 5:58 PM Rating: Decent
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I do not understand that move. Doesn't he have a hearing Thursday? Couldn't that wait a day or two?
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#2932 May 09 2017 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
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45 and his cronies are trying to stop the FBI investigation into their ties to Russia. Only way the Justice department can keep from closing all credibility is to appoint a Special Prosecutor and with Sessions in charge that isn't going to happen.
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#2933 May 09 2017 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Congress could set up an independent investigation but, again, the majority leaders aren't actually interested in anything threatening their brand.
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#2934 May 10 2017 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Strongly worded letter.
Gee, it's weird* how he was singing Comey's praises during the election and suddenly doesn't believe he can effectively lead the bureau anymore.

* not weird at all
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#2935 May 10 2017 at 9:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Congress could set up an independent investigation but, again, the majority leaders aren't actually interested in anything threatening their brand.
I mean, you could probably find dirt on anyone in that room. This is one of those things that just isn't going to end well. So much must be going on behind the scenes right now; lot of scared people.

Edited, May 10th 2017 8:42am by someproteinguy
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#2936 May 10 2017 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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So I guess Comey had just asked Rosenstein for a big increase in funding and personnel to ramp up the Russia investigation a few days ago.

"But Susan Rice...!"
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#2937 May 10 2017 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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Oldie, but goodie PR strategies: Hiding in the bushes.
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#2938 May 11 2017 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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It continues to be amazing how Spicer hasn't been replaced.
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#2939 May 11 2017 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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It continues to be amazing how Spicer hasn't been replaced.

Buzz is that it could happen with deputy press secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders taking the role.

Senator Mike Lee said that Trump should appoint Merrick Garland for Director of the FBI. I... don't think that we'll see that happen.
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#2940 May 11 2017 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
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I'm willing to bet that's just Senator Lee being sarcastic.
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#2941 May 11 2017 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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I think trolling is more accurate. Lee really doesn't like Trump. He's still going to side with party 100% of the time, but that won't stop him from making snarky suggestions.
The Hill wrote:
Conn Carroll, a spokesman for the Utah Republican, added that the GOP senator wasn't joking about making the Obama nominee the head of the FBI.

"He's eminently qualified and has the reputation needed to restore public confidence in FBI," he told The Hill, asked about why Lee would suggest Garland.


Edited, May 11th 2017 10:12am by Jophiel
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#2942 May 11 2017 at 10:35 AM Rating: Good
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There's been quite a few bits of trolling going on.

Also it's apparently sexist to roll your eyes at someone saying something monumentally stupid. At least according to Kellyanne Conway, who I would have imagined was used to people rolling their eyes whenever she gets in front of an audience.

And Corrine Brown found guilty of fraud. Politicians, former or otherwise. Smiley: thumbsup

Edited, May 11th 2017 3:10pm by lolgaxe
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#2943 May 11 2017 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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GOP fundraising company search by FBI today.

Gives me hope that our Governor will be among those to fall with 45.
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#2944 May 11 2017 at 7:06 PM Rating: Good
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ElneClare wrote:
GOP fundraising company search by FBI today.


It's the IRS scandal all over again. Smiley: tinfoilhat
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#2945 May 12 2017 at 7:31 AM Rating: Good
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Rep. Mike Ritze believes the best way to save money in Oklahoma is to deport 80,000 kids.
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They'd make more by selling 80,000 kids.
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#2947 May 12 2017 at 9:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Spoken like a true Democrat. Something, something, pizzagate.

Smiley: tinfoilhat
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#2948 May 12 2017 at 11:10 AM Rating: Decent
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We could abort them and avoid the whole issue.
#2949 May 12 2017 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Abort and sell the parts on all those taco vans on every corner.
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#2950 May 12 2017 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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I am thinking the smart money is investing in coat hanger stocks. Link

Edited, May 12th 2017 2:39pm by stupidmonkey
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#2951 May 15 2017 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://hail-hydra.com/
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