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#127 May 09 2014 at 7:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Actually, I was just responding to Varus. I don't particularly care about what Candidate Lost-His-Race was arguing at this point but be sure to spend another nine paragraphs trying to defend him.
That's great

You can actually stop right there since we both understand that your little screed had nothing to do with what I actually said and rather you just going off on some tangent and using me as your excuse.
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It's really not a policy issue, but a messaging issue. The right has been *horrible* at this for a long time.

Granted, it's hard to message "You shouldn't have the right to make reproductive health choices involving your own body".
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We actually have the better positions. We just eternally make the mistake of assuming that everyone can see this already, so we don't need to actually spend time convincing people of it.

Yeah, "We actually know what's best but you're all too dumb to realize it!". I guess you're right about the terrible GOP messaging at least Smiley: laugh
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#128 May 09 2014 at 11:41 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

So you see no difference between "You were raped because God wanted you to have this baby" and "All life should be treated as a gift from God"? Really? Again, not everyone inferred the former, but many critics were insinuating that he meant the former as opposed to the latter.

There is a difference, but the guy quoted didn't say, "You were raped because God wanted you to have this baby"

Anyways, it would be more like God saying, "Eh, sorry bout that rape miss, here have a baby. It's a gift from me (God) so don't abort it"

Unwanted babies: God's consolation prize. Thanks for playing!
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#129 May 12 2014 at 7:26 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Unwanted babies: God's consolation prize. Thanks for playing!
Kind of like the ring toss game.
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#130 May 12 2014 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's really not a policy issue, but a messaging issue. The right has been *horrible* at this for a long time.

Granted, it's hard to message "You shouldn't have the right to make reproductive health choices involving your own body".


That's a terrific example of exactly what I'm talking about. That's the Left's misconstruction of our position. No one on the Right believes that women don't have the right to make reproductive health choice about their own bodies. It's not about having no rights at all, but that all rights are balanced against other rights. You have a right to control your arm. You have a right to swing a hammer with that arm. You do *not* have a right to swing a hammer with that arm such that it impacts someone's head.

See how saying "Hitting someone in the head with a hammer should be illegal" is not the same as saying "You should have no right to control your own arm". Yet, that's precisely what you just claimed the Rights position with regard to abortion is. The Right does not support limiting abortion out of a desire to infringe the rights of women, but out of a desire to protect the rights of the unborn. Period.


And no, it's not about people being too dumb, but people being constantly lied to by a media which overwhelmingly supports Liberal positions about the how and why's of Conservative positions. It's nearly impossible to find a single political issue in which the general public's perception of the Right's position and motivations is actually correct. When people are fully informed of both sides positions and arguments, they overwhelmingly support the conservative side. The left only wins by misinforming the public. Which is why they spend so much time and effort doing just that.

It's that misinformation that the Right needs to fight against.
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#131 May 12 2014 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's really not a policy issue, but a messaging issue. The right has been *horrible* at this for a long time.

Granted, it's hard to message "You shouldn't have the right to make reproductive health choices involving your own body".
That's a terrific example of exactly what I'm talking about. That's the Left's misconstruction of our position. No one on the Right believes that women don't have the right to make reproductive health choice about their own bodies.

"You can have rights... just only the rights we say you can have. Vote Republican, ladies!"
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#132 May 12 2014 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Reproductive rights? Of course! You have the right to have all the rape babies you can bear.
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#133 May 12 2014 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vote Republican so we can take away the rights the Supreme Court afforded you decades ago! But we're not at all about taking away your reproductive rights -- That's Liberal Lies! GOP 2016!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#134 May 12 2014 at 6:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The Right does not support limiting abortion out of a desire to infringe the rights of women, but out of a desire to protect the rights of the unborn. Period.
The next step being to outlaw males' ************* since all those half-people are dying by the millions.

Slippery slope!!

Edited, May 12th 2014 6:27pm by Bijou
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#135 May 12 2014 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Great news, ladies! We have freed you from the burden of voting!
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#136 May 12 2014 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The Right does not support limiting abortion out of a desire to infringe the rights of women, but out of a desire to protect the rights of the unborn. Period.
The next step being to outlaw males' ************* since all those half-people are dying by the millions.

Slippery slope!!

Edited, May 12th 2014 6:27pm by Bijou
Then putting you in jail for bleeding out all those human lives when someone shoots you on their property...

Because their arbitrary definition of where life 'starts' and when it deserves rights is superior to your own, of course. Smiley: wink
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#137 May 12 2014 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Vote Republican so we can take away the rights the Supreme Court afforded you decades ago!


Really?

Blackmun, when writing his opinion on Roe v. Wade wrote:

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The [p154] Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927) ( sterilization).

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified, and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.
...

B. The pregnant woman cannot be isolated in her privacy. She carries an embryo and, later, a fetus, if one accepts the medical definitions of the developing young in the human uterus. See Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary 478-479, 547 (24th ed.1965). The situation therefore is inherently different from marital intimacy, or bedroom possession of obscene material, or marriage, or procreation, or education, with which Eisenstadt and Griswold, Stanley, Loving, Skinner, and Pierce and Meyer were respectively concerned. As we have intimated above, it is reasonable and appropriate for a State to decide that, at some point in time another interest, that of health of the mother or that of potential human life, becomes significantly involved. The woman's privacy is no longer sole and any right of privacy she possesses must be measured accordingly.

...

In view of all this, we do not agree that, by adopting one theory of life, Texas may override the rights of the pregnant woman that are at stake. We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a nonresident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life. These interests are separate and distinct. Each grows in substantiality as the woman approaches [p163] term and, at a point during pregnancy, each becomes "compelling."

With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in the health of the mother, the "compelling" point, in the light of present medical knowledge, is at approximately the end of the first trimester. This is so because of the now-established medical fact, referred to above at 149, that, until the end of the first trimester mortality in abortion may be less than mortality in normal childbirth. It follows that, from and after this point, a State may regulate the abortion procedure to the extent that the regulation reasonably relates to the preservation and protection of maternal health. Examples of permissible state regulation in this area are requirements as to the qualifications of the person who is to perform the abortion; as to the licensure of that person; as to the facility in which the procedure is to be performed, that is, whether it must be a hospital or may be a clinic or some other place of less-than-hospital status; as to the licensing of the facility; and the like.

This means, on the other hand, that, for the period of pregnancy prior to this "compelling" point, the attending physician, in consultation with his patient, is free to determine, without regulation by the State, that, in his medical judgment, the patient's pregnancy should be terminated. If that decision is reached, the judgment may be effectuated by an abortion free of interference by the State.

With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the "compelling" point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb. State regulation protective of fetal life after viability thus has both logical and biological justifications. If the State is interested in protecting fetal life after viability, it may go so far as to proscribe abortion [p164] during that period, except when it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.



Quote:
But we're not at all about taking away your reproductive rights -- That's Liberal Lies! GOP 2016!


Yes. Any claim that the Supreme Court granted an absolute right to abort is a lie. Any claim that attempts to merely limit abortion to those placed by the very court ruling that the left praises so much constitutes some kind of violation of a woman's rights is a lie. Kinda clear cut here, isn't it?

While there are several aspects of this ruling that the Right disagrees with, even the Court recognized that the potential human life of a fetus represented a sufficient and compelling interest which justified regulation and restriction of abortion. What's bizarre is all the liberals who today insist that this isn't true. Now *there's* your slippery slope.

Edited, May 12th 2014 6:48pm by gbaji
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#138 May 12 2014 at 7:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Any claim that attempts to merely limit abortion to those placed by the very court ruling that the left praises so much constitutes some kind of violation of a woman's rights is a lie.

You should totally sell that line on a bumper sticker Smiley: laugh
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#139 May 12 2014 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Any claim that attempts to merely limit abortion to those placed by the very court ruling that the left praises so much constitutes some kind of violation of a woman's rights is a lie.

You should totally sell that line on a bumper sticker Smiley: laugh


I'll take your tangential response as a tacit admission of defeat. Smiley: cool
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#140 May 12 2014 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you'd like. There's not really much to debate aside from your whining. When someone is saying you shouldn't have any exceptions on an abortion ban even for rape and incest because all children are gifts from God, you don't really have a valid "oh, but it's just regulation!" platform.

But, you know, wah wah liberals wah wah media wah wah everyone else's fault your message resonates with women like a spiky Se7en *****.
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Belkira wrote:
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#141 May 12 2014 at 8:31 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
spiky Se7en *****.


I think those are the popular ones on mfc.
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#142 May 12 2014 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spiky Se7en *****.
Hide it in your box!
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#143 May 12 2014 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Spiky Se7en *****.
Hide it in your box!
Smiley: facepalm


You are a very, very bad man.Smiley: lol
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#144 May 12 2014 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Spiky Se7en *****.
Hide it in your box!

Might require a 500 coin tip though.
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#145 May 12 2014 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
If you'd like. There's not really much to debate aside from your whining. When someone is saying you shouldn't have any exceptions on an abortion ban even for rape and incest because all children are gifts from God, you don't really have a valid "oh, but it's just regulation!" platform.
Funny how when the right looks at issues involve industry, regulation is "bad"; regulating peoples' personal lives? BEST. IDEA. EVAR!
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#146 May 12 2014 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
If you'd like. There's not really much to debate aside from your whining. When someone is saying you shouldn't have any exceptions on an abortion ban even for rape and incest because all children are gifts from God, you don't really have a valid "oh, but it's just regulation!" platform.
Funny how when the right looks at issues involve industry, regulation is "bad"; regulating peoples' personal lives? BEST. IDEA. EVAR!
It's American politics. You have to have two parties flip flopping on the concepts of government regulation and personal liberty as they apply to social and economic situations. It's like in the constitution or something.
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#147 May 13 2014 at 6:09 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

While there are several aspects of this ruling that the Right disagrees with, even the Court recognized that the potential human life of a fetus represented a sufficient and compelling interest which justified regulation and restriction of abortion. What's bizarre is all the liberals who today insist that this isn't true. Now *there's* your slippery slope.

Smiley: lol Did you use ctrl-F to find the phrases you wanted, bolded them, and then promptly ignored the rest of the 'opinion'. No one claimed 'absolute' but you. Of course there are limits to a woman's right to pro-create. All our rights are limited and regulated for the greater good. But in the absence of exemptions, extenuating circumstances and otherwise abnormal situations, SCOTUS found that....
The part ignored wrote:
We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision,
The Republican party has been trying to regulate away those non-absolute rights since Roe v. Wade.

Go knock up some woman so she can abort your kid. It's safe and legal.

Edit - post trimmed for posterity.

Edited, May 13th 2014 2:11pm by Elinda
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#148 May 13 2014 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Spiky Se7en *****.
Hide it in your box!

Home abortion method. There's a youtube video showing how to do it.
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#149 May 13 2014 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Again you're just qualifying murder. And according to you until a baby can "stand-alone" you have the right to murder him/her.


Sounds good. I'd say until a baby can do Algebra you should be allowed to slay them at will. Not just parents, either. Anyone.
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#150 May 13 2014 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Smiley: lol Did you use ctrl-F to find the phrases you wanted, bolded them, and then promptly ignored the rest of the 'opinion'.

You've never seen Gbaji bungle his way through a SCotUS ruling before, have you?
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Belkira wrote:
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#151 May 13 2014 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
No one claimed 'absolute' but you.
Maybe not, but to make the argument that element is necessary. Kind of like outraged people.
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