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Father shoots/kills daughter's boyfriendFollow

#277 Mar 24 2014 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Which is what? .004% of the US population? I'm not saying that those deaths don't matter, but in context...


You're not saying those twelve thousand people don't matter, but...? What context, exactly? In a population of a billion, twelve thousand unnecessary deaths would still matter to anyone with a conscience.

The gun debate is very like the abortion debate and the animal rights debate and the AIDS debate back in the 80s. No one wants a conversation; everyone just wants to out-shout everyone else. It's so hyperpoliticized, we can no longer talk about it.
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#278 Mar 24 2014 at 4:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
No one wants a conversation; everyone just wants to out-shout everyone else. It's so hyperpoliticized, we can no longer talk about it.
I bowed out like three or four pages ago.

Quips don't count.
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#279 Mar 25 2014 at 5:21 AM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
Course this is Alma's thread so all bets off about it's cause.
This is the second or so reference to me making threads as if I do it often. Not only have the most recent ones been seldom, they are far from "controversial".
#280 Mar 25 2014 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Course this is Alma's thread so all bets off about it's cause.
This is the second or so reference to me making threads as if I do it often. Not only have the most recent ones been seldom, they are far from "controversial".
Lol+1 Smiley: thumbsup
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#281 Mar 25 2014 at 7:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, there is no controversy other than what he's imagining.
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#282 Mar 25 2014 at 7:45 AM Rating: Default
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That doesn't even make sense. You can do better.Smiley: oyvey
#283 Mar 25 2014 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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I think it's insane that you'd jump to the conclusion that Aethien ever said he'd not defend himself. Locking yourself in the bathroom while you call the police is defending oneself. Interrupting the situation, asking and getting answers is defending oneself. Not alienating and scaring your children to the point that they sneak and lie to you is defending oneself.


I didn't jump to any conclusions. I responded to his exact words. Incidentally, I do actually live in Jersey, and there's a lot more crime all across America than most people want to admit. You don't have to be in Camden to see it. Go next door to GloCity. Go across the bridge to Philly. Are there safer places? Sure. Go about an hour away to Elsinboro or Shiloh or Stow Creek where the cows outnumber the people. Most of us live somewhere in between these two extremes, and there is the possibility of crime no matter where you live.

I know I'm in the minority, but locking myself in the bathroom and hiding isn't appealing to me. Doors aren't these magical devices that stop bullets. I'd prefer to have some control over the situation, and that's why I learned how to use a weapon.

The last part of your statement really is making a massive assumption. Having a weapon doesn't alienate or frighten children, and believe it or not, teenagers sneak around to make out and have sex whether their parents own weapons or not. Let's try not to be too outrageous in this discussion.
#284 Mar 25 2014 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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The last part of your statement really is making a massive assumption. Having a weapon doesn't alienate or frighten children, and believe it or not, teenagers sneak around to make out and have sex whether their parents own weapons or not. Let's try not to be too outrageous in this discussion.


I believe the point was that if the daughter hadn't been afraid of her father at that moment, she might not have lied. Of course she'd be somewhat afraid; it's an "oh ****" moment. But having your father burst in on you and your boyfriend is a different dynamic than having your armed father burst in on you and your boyfriend, regardless.
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#285 Mar 25 2014 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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I believe the point was that if the daughter hadn't been afraid of her father at that moment, she might not have lied. Of course she'd be somewhat afraid; it's an "oh sh*t" moment. But having your father burst in on you and your boyfriend is a different dynamic than having your armed father burst in on you and your boyfriend, regardless.


This is why I've had an extensive discussion with Hannah about exactly what will happen should I burst in on her and a partner at some future date. Firstly, I'll have a huge trash bag full of mayonnaise. This might seem comical at first glance, but you've clearly never attempted to have a physical altercation with a 250 lb 6'2" 50 year old while you were covered in mayonnaise. Then, obviously the pop rocks ceiling trap comes into play and, I assume, you can intuit the rest.
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#286 Mar 25 2014 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:

I know I'm in the minority, but locking myself in the bathroom and hiding isn't appealing to me. Doors aren't these magical devices that stop bullets. I'd prefer to have some control over the situation, and that's why I learned how to use a weapon.

Even on my worst day I'd rather cower in a bathroom with a plugged toilet full of crap (and I REALLY hate poo!) than shoot someone dead.

But hey, that's just me.

Sam guessed right on my earlier comment. The daughter probably lied out of fear of repercussion. Seems she had good reason.
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#287 Mar 25 2014 at 11:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:


This is why I've had an extensive discussion with Hannah about exactly what will happen should I burst in on her and a partner at some future date. Firstly, I'll have a huge trash bag full of mayonnaise. This might seem comical at first glance, but you've clearly never attempted to have a physical altercation with a 250 lb 6'2" 50 year old while you were covered in mayonnaise. Then, obviously the pop rocks ceiling trap comes into play and, I assume, you can intuit the rest.



The beauty of this plan is that it works equally well for a boyfriend or an attacker.

Of course in some families so does a gun, I suppose.
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#288 Mar 25 2014 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
The daughter probably lied out of fear of repercussion.
Or she lied because she's seventeen and stupid.
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#289 Mar 25 2014 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
The daughter probably lied out of fear of repercussion.
Or she lied because she's seventeen and stupid.


Or all of the above.
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#290 Mar 25 2014 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
Quote:
I think it's insane that you'd jump to the conclusion that Aethien ever said he'd not defend himself. Locking yourself in the bathroom while you call the police is defending oneself. Interrupting the situation, asking and getting answers is defending oneself. Not alienating and scaring your children to the point that they sneak and lie to you is defending oneself.


I didn't jump to any conclusions. I responded to his exact words. Incidentally, I do actually live in Jersey, and there's a lot more crime all across America than most people want to admit. You don't have to be in Camden to see it. Go next door to GloCity. Go across the bridge to Philly. Are there safer places? Sure. Go about an hour away to Elsinboro or Shiloh or Stow Creek where the cows outnumber the people. Most of us live somewhere in between these two extremes, and there is the possibility of crime no matter where you live.

I know I'm in the minority, but locking myself in the bathroom and hiding isn't appealing to me. Doors aren't these magical devices that stop bullets. I'd prefer to have some control over the situation, and that's why I learned how to use a weapon.

The last part of your statement really is making a massive assumption. Having a weapon doesn't alienate or frighten children, and believe it or not, teenagers sneak around to make out and have sex whether their parents own weapons or not. Let's try not to be too outrageous in this discussion.



And you still have no control and the problem is the fake power a gun gives to people sorry but a couple of gun safety and handling classes are not going to make you able to deal with **** cops have a hard time handling. If the criminal is taking the risk of entering your home while you are there then chances are they came knowing that fact and will already have you covered by time you are able to fight back and will only serve to get your self killed. People don't like to admit but you sleep much deeper then you think and filter out a whole bunch of crap that could tip you off.

Reality though is that the person that you will most likely have to defend your self from is already next to you and is just one bad day away from being a threat to your life. Would you shoot your wife, husband, child dead if they became a threat to you or would you try to talk them down, is there some one with you at all times that can talk you down from turning the gun on your self. If we are talking about things that could happen this is FAR more likely to happen on any day in any home then some random crack head breaking into your house while you are home. Having a weapon here is opening up another problem in defusing the situation.
#291 Mar 25 2014 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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And you still have no control and the problem is the fake power a gun gives to people sorry but a couple of gun safety and handling classes are not going to make you able to deal with sh*t cops have a hard time handling. If the criminal is taking the risk of entering your home while you are there then chances are they came knowing that fact

In point of fact, this almost never happens. It's a lot easier to rob places when no one's there, turns out, and you do A LOT more jail time for home invasion than B&E.
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#292 Mar 25 2014 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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I blame the Manson family for all of this paranoia.
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#293 Mar 25 2014 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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I didn't think his music was that bad.
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#294 Mar 25 2014 at 3:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
I'm all for better gun laws but I have weapons, and they are for protection, because people are @#%^ing insane. If you think that's absurd, I hope you never have to live through an attack, because it obviously hasn't happened to you yet.


I guess all the insane people went to America and bought guns, because people getting shot dead during home invasions here is a pretty big thing. Like, breaking news big. Clear the front page and run ten news articles over the next two weeks big. I don't know, it must be something our communist government puts in the water... Smiley: rolleyes

Edit: Not that people don't die in home invasions here, mind you. A 76-year-old man died from his injuries after a home invasion. In 2008.

Torrence wrote:
I know I'm in the minority, but locking myself in the bathroom and hiding isn't appealing to me. Doors aren't these magical devices that stop bullets. I'd prefer to have some control over the situation, and that's why I learned how to use a weapon.


Well, whenever I'm hiding from a crazy gunman in my bathroom, I try to remember not to lean on the door.

To be fair, I guess if a crazy person breaks into your house and tries to shoot out the lock on your bathroom door so he can murder you instead of just running off with your jewelry and TV, having a gun is useful. Because that kind of crazy person won't just shoot you before you can get to the gun, anyway. I mean, he wouldn't just ring your doorbell and straight up shoot you in the face when you answer the door.

Edited, Mar 25th 2014 11:22pm by Mazra
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#295 Mar 25 2014 at 3:54 PM Rating: Good
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RavennofTitan wrote:
Reality though is that the person that you will most likely have to defend your self from is already next to you and is just one bad day away from being a threat to your life.


At the risk of repeating myself, this is just plain not true. It's "true" only if you limit your statistics to situations where the gun was actually fired. But the overwhelming majority of defensive uses of a firearm do not involve the firearm being fired.

Just one of many such sources. Check out the "Crime and Self Defense" section:

Quote:
Roughly 16,272 murders were committed in the United States during 2008. Of these, about 10,886 or 67% were committed with firearms.[11]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 0.5% of households had members who had used a gun for defense during a situation in which they thought someone "almost certainly would have been killed" if they "had not used a gun for protection." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 162,000 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[12]

* Based on survey data from the U.S. Department of Justice, roughly 5,340,000 violent crimes were committed in the United States during 2008. These include simple/aggravated assaults, robberies, sexual assaults, rapes, and murders.[13] [14] [15] Of these, about 436,000 or 8% were committed by offenders visibly armed with a gun.[16]

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

* A 1993 nationwide survey of 4,977 households found that over the previous five years, at least 3.5% of households had members who had used a gun "for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere." Applied to the U.S. population, this amounts to 1,029,615 such incidents per year. This figure excludes all "military service, police work, or work as a security guard."[19]

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]



Point is that uses of firearms for self defense fall pretty consistently at about 1 million per year. The total number of homicides by firearm is tiny in comparison. Even when we look at all crimes committed with a firearm, it's somewhere around half the number of times firearms are used to defend against a crime. Let me also point out that this particular source is relying on the lowball numbers from government statistics. There are a number of sites that will refute those numbers and argue that uses of firearms for self defense is much much higher.

But even using the lowest numbers we can possibly find, we're still left with guns being used to defend against a criminal act twice as often as they're being used to commit a crime, and used to defend against a situation where the victim was sure they or someone they were protecting would be killed 15 times more often than they're used to actually kill anyone. While people love to parrot the idea that guns are most likely to hurt their owners, the actual stats show otherwise.

Edited, Mar 25th 2014 2:57pm by gbaji
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#296 Mar 25 2014 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself
It's not much of a risk if you do it all the time.
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#297 Mar 25 2014 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself
It's not much of a risk if you do it all the time.


Depends on who's at risk. Smiley: nod
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#298 Mar 25 2014 at 4:38 PM Rating: Decent
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It is not just about guns you are more likely to be harmed or killed by someone you are close to, no if ands or buts about it. What I was getting at is having a gun to protect you from the big bad boogy man make about as much sense as having a proton pack to protect you slimer. There are no roaming bands of thugs hiding in the bushes to rape and kill you and if you are going to be raped or killed chances are it will be someone you trust and when it happens having a gun won't really help you.
#299 Mar 25 2014 at 6:10 PM Rating: Good
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RavennofTitan wrote:
It is not just about guns you are more likely to be harmed or killed by someone you are close to, no if ands or buts about it. What I was getting at is having a gun to protect you from the big bad boogy man make about as much sense as having a proton pack to protect you slimer. There are no roaming bands of thugs hiding in the bushes to rape and kill you and if you are going to be raped or killed chances are it will be someone you trust and when it happens having a gun won't really help you.


Sigh. Again, that is simply not true. Here's some data. Quick one liner:

 
Victim-Offender       Violent Crime    Rape    Robbery   Aggravated     Simple 
 Relationship                Total                                           Assault          Assault 
 
Stranger                       57%             55%        77%          56%              52% 


The one trend that is really obvious when you look at these stats is that the relationship between violent crime and victims is reversed from that which you claim. The closer one is to the other person the less likely for criminal behavior to occur. The lowest rates of violent crime occur between people who are family members (8% overall). The next lowest is between people who are acquaintances (31% overall). The highest rate is between people who are strangers (57% overall).

I get that this maybe puts a giant question mark on your whole "you don't really need guns to protect yourself from crime" argument, but it was a crappy/weak argument to begin with. There are a bunch of better ones to use. Claiming that you're more likely to be victimized by someone living with you, so having a gun just gives them a tool to hurt you with isn't one of them.
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#300 Mar 25 2014 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Holy ****! Smash was right. gbaji is living in a world from 30 years ago.
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#301 Mar 25 2014 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Gbaji's link wrote:
Date Published: 1987
That data is older than I am...
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