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#52 Feb 05 2014 at 1:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, from what I saw (and I didn't watch all of it), Bill gave a bunch of facts and asked a bunch of questions and Ken Ham responded with bible verses and telling everyone that god is awesome.

This is why these things should never happen....
#53 Feb 05 2014 at 1:11 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoalHeart wrote:
I don't think that either should be taught in a science class as the origin of life.

Creationism fails to provide what most would consider empirical, quantifiable data, complete with verifiable predictions.

Evolutionary theory does have representative data and makes verifiable predictions, but it only pertains to life that already exists.


Neither theory explains the origin of life in a repeatable manner. Either God(s) magically created us, or inert, primordial soup magically came to life. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

If a science class really is based on "facts", then the correct answer at this point to the origin of life question is "We don't actually know".



Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:33pm by CoalHeart

There's nothing magical about amino acids. Given the right starting elements, a liquid solution, and enough time (which we had) Some form of protein based life was inevitable. Those suckers had hundreds of millions of years to randomly start assembling in interesting ways.
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#54 Feb 05 2014 at 3:07 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
This is why these things should never happen....
It isn't like it could have gone any other way, really.

Except maybe slap fight.
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#55 Feb 05 2014 at 3:30 AM Rating: Good
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#56 Feb 05 2014 at 4:19 AM Rating: Default
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Aripyanfar wrote:
CoalHeart wrote:
I don't think that either should be taught in a science class as the origin of life.

Creationism fails to provide what most would consider empirical, quantifiable data, complete with verifiable predictions.

Evolutionary theory does have representative data and makes verifiable predictions, but it only pertains to life that already exists.


Neither theory explains the origin of life in a repeatable manner. Either God(s) magically created us, or inert, primordial soup magically came to life. Or maybe it's something else entirely.

If a science class really is based on "facts", then the correct answer at this point to the origin of life question is "We don't actually know".



Edited, Jan 27th 2014 10:33pm by CoalHeart

There's nothing magical about amino acids. Given the right starting elements, a liquid solution, and enough time (which we had) Some form of protein based life was inevitable. Those suckers had hundreds of millions of years to randomly start assembling in interesting ways.


Yeah, I was taught that in 3rd grade as well. Doesn't mean it's scientifically, provably true though. For something so obviously inevitable it sure seems to be hiding everywhere else we've been looking. Nor can we reproduce it or give a step by step of how it happened. It all just boils down to the same old cliche'. "Given enough time, it had to happen."

We know all the amino acids involved. We know how and what proteins are synthesized. We understand organic chemistry, Yet, even with all this knowledge, the basic building blocks and our modern technology we can't reproduce it. We're not starting from scratch here, it should be simple. And yet it's never been done. W';ve never created life. Not even simple pond scum.

I agree that it seems probable given the time scale involved, but that in no way means it happened. Saying with authority that it did is as unscientific as anyone could possibly be.


Edited, Feb 5th 2014 5:24am by CoalHeart
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#57 Feb 05 2014 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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Actually, they did stitch together DNA from various bacteria to make a very basic bacteria that met all the criteria for life. We didn't make it completely from scratch, though. It's a Frankencell.

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#58 Feb 05 2014 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
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Catwho wrote:
Actually, they did stitch together DNA from various bacteria to make a very basic bacteria that met all the criteria for life. We didn't make it completely from scratch, though. It's a Frankencell.



That's certainly a step in the right direction. I happen to think it's most probable that certain things only combine certain ways and given billions of years one of those ways is going to be what we call life. My issue is stating things as a "fact" when we don't know. That's very unscientific.


Just believing something in science is no difference than just believing religion.


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#59 Feb 05 2014 at 10:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoalHeart wrote:
Catwho wrote:
Actually, they did stitch together DNA from various bacteria to make a very basic bacteria that met all the criteria for life. We didn't make it completely from scratch, though. It's a Frankencell.



That's certainly a step in the right direction. I happen to think it's most probable that certain things only combine certain ways and given billions of years one of those ways is going to be what we call life. My issue is stating things as a "fact" when we don't know. That's very unscientific.


Just believing something in science is no difference than just believing religion.




Is it stated as a "fact," though? I always thought that evolution is a Scientific Theory because we can see proof in the fossils. The origin of life, however, is a hypothesis still.


Edited, Feb 5th 2014 10:27am by Belkira
#60 Feb 05 2014 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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CoalHeart wrote:
We know all the amino acids involved. We know how and what proteins are synthesized. We understand organic chemistry, Yet, even with all this knowledge, the basic building blocks and our modern technology we can't reproduce it. We're not starting from scratch here, it should be simple.
It's not that simple. Smiley: mad

We don't have a clue how the whole thing works on a fundamental level, seriously we don't. There's a couple of places where knowledge is starting to gel, we learn about Glycolysis or the citric acid cycle in school, but these are more exception that rules. Just to take one example the most common experiment I'm asked to analyze are immunoprecipitation experiments. These are basically taking one protein, and attempting to see what can bind to it. We're trying to build these pathways one step at a time.

It's complicated, some things bind better than others, some things seemingly bind to everything, context is important. You have to follow up in other ways. Is this protein being seen here or there. Is it really in the cell membrane at this time? What else does it do? No one protein does one thing. If it's floating around in there odds are it's going to react with something. Pure chaos, that sack of random chemicals. We don't even understand what 90% of the DNA does on a basic level. Junk DNA my ***, that stuff we thought we threw away seems to keep doing things we don't expect. Good luck stitching all that together. Give us a few hundred years of doing this, hopefully someone makes some leap in technology that makes this knowledge come faster, but building even a basic system one block at a time is painful.
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#61 Feb 05 2014 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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So the rl;dr is that there are endless factors and possibilities and we haven't had millions of years to get it right. We also don't know nearly enough to do it in any other way than trial and error to see what does and doesn't work.

Did I get that right?
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#62 Feb 05 2014 at 11:28 AM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So the tl;dr is SCIENCE!!

Did I get that right?


FTFY.
#63 Feb 05 2014 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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#64 Feb 05 2014 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
So the rl;dr is that there are endless factors and possibilities and we haven't had millions of years to get it right. We also don't know nearly enough to do it in any other way than trial and error to see what does and doesn't work.

Did I get that right?
Go up to a couple of kids give them a photograph of a house, a buck of nails, a hammer and a saw, $25, and have them try to build what was in the picture.

Best analogy I can think of. We don't have the experience we need, all the tools we'd like to have, any clue what the inside of the house is supposed to be like, or nearly enough funding to get anything meaningful done. Add to that our mom is telling us to stop messing around because it's time to come inside and do our homework.
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#65 Feb 05 2014 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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We're not starting from scratch here, it should be simple.

Yeah, no. The mechanic might turn out to be simple, guessing what it is should about as simple as "I'm thinking of a number from 1 to 100 quadrillion, why haven't you guessed it, yet? It's 193235. See, simple. God rulz."

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#66 Feb 05 2014 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Evolution is not a fact. It's not a single action reaction. It's a theory that's been pieced together with millions of years of evidence. Ok, get that, evolution = theory. It's the concept that best fits the empirical evidence. If and when the evidence disproves it will not longer be theory. More likely is evidence will strengthen it and mold it into a better theory.

Religion is not a theory. It's not based on evidence it's based on faith. It's not science. It's belief.

These creationist zealots should be torched as heretics, as Christianity is all about maintaining the faith - not demanding proof of it.





Edited, Feb 5th 2014 11:07pm by Elinda
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#67 Feb 05 2014 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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[quote=Elinda]evolution = theory ******************** mutations always causing amino acid substitutions ******** up perfectly good peptide fragmentation patterns. Smiley: glare
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#68 Feb 06 2014 at 12:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? ***. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#69 Feb 06 2014 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.


But monkeys still exist, Smash. Therefor evolution is wrong!
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#70 Feb 06 2014 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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And redheads. If your evolution was a reality then why am *I* here?
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#71 Feb 06 2014 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cause red hair maked girls twice as hot. You're an unfortunate side effect.
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#72 Feb 06 2014 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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And redheads. If your evolution was a reality then why am *I* here?


Every species needs their joke.
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#73 Feb 06 2014 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
And redheads. If your evolution was a reality then why am *I* here?
Ur a mutant.
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#74 Feb 06 2014 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.

Ok, I can go with that - evolving the verb, is taking place all the time. Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

Nothing explains Debalic.



Edited, Feb 6th 2014 9:18pm by Elinda
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#75 Feb 06 2014 at 1:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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But monkeys still exist, Smash. Therefor evolution is wrong!

It's scientifically impossible for winged monkeys to fly. Yet we have The Wizard of Oz.

Point: God.
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#76 Feb 06 2014 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
Evolution is not a fact

Nah it's a fact. Let's not confuse people. Evolution through random mutation and natural selection of preferential genes is a fact. Happens all the time, is happening now, not an open question.

Ok, I can go with that - evolution the verb, is taking place all the time. Evolution the noun is a theory explaining why some birds have long beaks and humans have a tailbone, etc etc.

Nothing explains Debalic.



Evolution is not a verb, and there is no difference in the two anyway.

Some mutations are adaptive. Some are maladaptive. Some are neutral. When mutations are adaptive such that the lucky critters affected are more prone to reproduce and pass on their genes, we call it evolution.

What some people insist on calling macroevolution as opposed to the politically acceptable microevolution (after all, we know flu viruses mutate constantly, so there's no arguing against that one) is simply short sightedness. They refuse, or are perhaps intellectually unable, to take the long view.
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