Apparently President Obama agrees with me and Gbaji.
At about 1 minute in he says "to try to bring more and more Americans together around what I think is a unifying theme; making sure that this is a country where if you work hard, you can make it."
He goes on to say " In order to advance a mission that I think unifies all Americans, the belief that everybody’s got to take responsibility, everybody’s got to work hard, but if you do, that you can support a family and meet the kinds of obligations that you have to your self and your family."
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Never regret.To regret is to assume.
Erm, isn't the point of his remarks that this isn't currently a nation that explicitly rewards hard work with success? That "working hard" doesn't currently guarantee that you can support a family and meet your obligations? Hence the need for more work, legislation, executive orders et al.
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 12:29am by Jophiel
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 12:29am by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
Erm, isn't the point of his remarks that this isn't currently a nation that explicitly rewards hard work with success? That "working hard" doesn't currently guarantee that you can support a family and meet your obligations? Hence the need for more work, legislation, executive orders et al.
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 12:29am by Jophiel
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 12:29am by Jophiel
I don't remember anyone specifying that the "debate" was limited to America, so Erm, no. :)
For what it's worth, I think he's wrong. Hard work will never guarantee success. I think his actual point is to try and give folks hope and inspire them to hunker down and hang in there. It just so happened that his rhetoric supported my position.
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 1:50am by CoalHeart
Never regret.To regret is to assume.
Must be wonderful to live somewhere where there are job opportunities for everybody that works hard. I've never seen it, but there must be a place that has more managers than peons so that all the entry level people who work hard are able to advance, right? Anecdotal, but recently a full-time position opened up at my work. I applied (3 1/2 years experience as a manager) and another person applied (about 8 months experience). They got the position, but then I was asked to come in because they didn't quite trust them to run the place by themselves and go to me with any questions they had. Seems to me they realized I was the more qualified candidate but for some reason I didn't get it. Now tell me again how hard work guarantees success since anybody can move ahead if they try.
CoalHeart wrote:
I don't remember anyone specifying that the "debate" was limited to America, so Erm, no. :)
Right. Working hard is the key to success in Nigeria.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Obama obviously meant Kenya.
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
xantav wrote:
Now tell me again how hard work guarantees success since anybody can move ahead if they try.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
jimbrown45 wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If you're truly in a job situation with zero chance of advancement, then perhaps "effort" in this case, means switching jobs? Just a thought.
Because easy is what it's all about. If it can't be given to you with little or no effort on your part it's all just part of "the man" holding you back.
Only losers use the word "easy".
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
jimbrown45 wrote:
Only guys I date are "easy".
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
CoalHeart wrote:
I don't remember anyone specifying that the "debate" was limited to America, so Erm, no. :)
Donate. One day it could be your family.
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
Since the initial conversation was about American Congress, the default is assumed to be the US unless declared otherwise.
I've learned that Canadians are really insecure.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
DON'T TELL ME WHAT I AM! CANADA MATTERS!!
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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Yes fine it does, now go back to curling or whatever it is you guys do up there.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 3:02pm by Xsarus
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You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
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I really enjoyed curling the last Olympics. Enough to briefly consider trying it with Hannah. Briefly. I mean, it passed, I'm an American. We probably shot RPGs at an old gasoline truck parked on wetlands instead. I don't really remember. That bald polite fellow seemed nice. Wait, I've just described 93% of Canadian men.
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
xantav wrote:
Must be wonderful to live somewhere where there are job opportunities for everybody that works hard. I've never seen it, but there must be a place that has more managers than peons so that all the entry level people who work hard are able to advance, right?
A. Opportunity != Guarantee
B. Ratio of managers to peons has nothing to do with success. You don't have to be a manager to be successful.
Quote:
Anecdotal, but recently a full-time position opened up at my work. I applied (3 1/2 years experience as a manager) and another person applied (about 8 months experience). They got the position, but then I was asked to come in because they didn't quite trust them to run the place by themselves and go to me with any questions they had. Seems to me they realized I was the more qualified candidate but for some reason I didn't get it.
And if they keep asking you to come in and help do the job they hired him to do, at some point they'll put you in a better paid position. People make mistakes all the time. Your bosses are not precognitive. And you presumably don't know all the factors they considered when making the hiring decision. if it really was a mistake they either will realize it or their own business will suffer for not realizing it. If you are a more valuable employee than they're rewarding you for, this increases your ability to go elsewhere and earn higher pay.
These things tend to work out over time.
Quote:
Now tell me again how hard work guarantees success since anybody can move ahead if they try.
Sigh. Again? Ok:
gbaji wrote:
No one's guaranteeing that hard work will get you out of poverty, but it's more likely than if you don't work hard.
gbaji wrote:
No one said that hard work alone guarantees success.
gbaji wrote:
It may not guarantee a win, but it's what will give you your best chance to. Similarly, while working hard to succeed doesn't guarantee success, it's what will give you your best chance at success.
gbaji wrote:
Again, not guarantees of success, but to argue that there exists any person in the US for whom there were zero opportunities for success is a complete absurdity.
Was I unclear about what I was saying?
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Quote:
gbaji wrote:
No one's guaranteeing that hard work will get you out of poverty, but it's more likely than if you don't work hard.
gbaji wrote:
No one said that hard work alone guarantees success.
gbaji wrote:
It may not guarantee a win, but it's what will give you your best chance to. Similarly, while working hard to succeed doesn't guarantee success, it's what will give you your best chance at success.
gbaji wrote:
Again, not guarantees of success, but to argue that there exists any person in the US for whom there were zero opportunities for success is a complete absurdity.
No one's guaranteeing that hard work will get you out of poverty, but it's more likely than if you don't work hard.
gbaji wrote:
No one said that hard work alone guarantees success.
gbaji wrote:
It may not guarantee a win, but it's what will give you your best chance to. Similarly, while working hard to succeed doesn't guarantee success, it's what will give you your best chance at success.
gbaji wrote:
Again, not guarantees of success, but to argue that there exists any person in the US for whom there were zero opportunities for success is a complete absurdity.
So not matter how hard you work, in the end it comes down to being in the right place at the right time.
xantav wrote:
So not matter how hard you work, in the end it comes down to being in the right place at the right time.
Why attach the "no matter how hard you work" part? Everything in life comes down to being at the right place at the right time. But you're more likely to be at the right place at the right time if you put in the effort to do so. And you are more likely for that right place and right time to bear fruit if you expend the effort to make it do so. This isn't about "no matter how hard you work". How hard you work has a massively significant effect on your outcomes.
The odds of "right place, right time" making you successful without you expending any effort is very close to zero. And most of the time, something only becomes the "right place, right time" if you worked to make it so in the first place. If you get that once in a lifetime break to have a big label music producer listen to you play, it's not likely to bear fruit if you didn't spend any effort to make yourself good enough to impress him, right? If you're terrible, he's probably not going to sign you. Most of life's opportunities are like that. They're there all the time. It's a matter of the right opportunity coming along that we're able to take advantage of. And sure, there's no guarantee that the opportunity that matches perfectly with you will come along. But the odds of an opportunity coming along that will benefit you are vastly higher the more effort you put in both making yourself more capable at whatever it is you desire to do *and* putting yourself into places where opportunities are most likely to occur.
I guess I just don't get the whole "You can't guarantee I'll be a millionaire, so there's no sense in me bothering to get out of bed in the morning" approach. There's a whole range of "success" out there. And most of it is quite obtainable for most people.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Luck in our country starts the minute you're born. Born to the right parents at the right time? Congratulations, you won the genetic lottery and you'll grow up with two parents who are stable and gainfully employed. Born to the wrong parents, or at the wrong time? Sucks to be you - you'll probably only have one parent who will have to struggle twice as hard to provide that stable environment as a result, and probably fail some of the time.
Now, as long as that one parent at least cares, the unlucky kid has a shot at success through his own hard work. No guarantees, and if the kid doesn't have a parent who cares, he's ****** no matter how hard he tries. Try doing anything before you're 18 without a parent's signature.
Now, as long as that one parent at least cares, the unlucky kid has a shot at success through his own hard work. No guarantees, and if the kid doesn't have a parent who cares, he's ****** no matter how hard he tries. Try doing anything before you're 18 without a parent's signature.
gbaji wrote:
And if they keep asking you to come in and help do the job they hired him to do, at some point they'll put you in a better paid position.
gbaji wrote:
Was I unclear about what I was saying?
You, O King of Obfuscation, are rarely *clear*.
Edited for word choice and poor typing sills
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 8:04pm by Bijou
remorajunbao wrote:
One day I'm going to fly to Canada and open the curtains in your office.
Jophiel wrote:
I've learned that Canadians are really insecure.
Stop stealing our Culture!
HEY GOOGLE. **** OFF YOU. **** YOUR ******** SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS ******* ****** BINARY ***. ALL DAY LONG.
Why remove the latter part of the paragraph?
Um...no. They will keep you there training up their nepotic picks until you quit or the heat death of the universe.
Your response doesn't counter what I said. I know you guys love to get on me for being verbose, but I honestly don't just write extra words for the sake of filling up the screen. Read the whole thing. Understand it. Then respond.
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 7:24pm by gbaji
Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And if they keep asking you to come in and help do the job they hired him to do, at some point they'll put you in a better paid position. People make mistakes all the time. Your bosses are not precognitive. And you presumably don't know all the factors they considered when making the hiring decision. if it really was a mistake they either will realize it or their own business will suffer for not realizing it. If you are a more valuable employee than they're rewarding you for, this increases your ability to go elsewhere and earn higher pay.
Um...no. They will keep you there training up their nepotic picks until you quit or the heat death of the universe.
Your response doesn't counter what I said. I know you guys love to get on me for being verbose, but I honestly don't just write extra words for the sake of filling up the screen. Read the whole thing. Understand it. Then respond.
Edited, Jan 16th 2014 7:24pm by gbaji
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Catwho wrote:
Luck in our country starts the minute you're born. Born to the right parents at the right time? Congratulations, you won the genetic lottery and you'll grow up with two parents who are stable and gainfully employed.
Which is no guarantee of success either. I know a few people born to what we would all agree are about the best possible family environments who have ended out as abject failures.
Quote:
Born to the wrong parents, or at the wrong time? Sucks to be you - you'll probably only have one parent who will have to struggle twice as hard to provide that stable environment as a result, and probably fail some of the time.
Again though, no guarantee of failure either.
Luck plays a part, but it's just one part of many. I just think that when society constantly parrots this "Life is just a lottery" idea, all we're doing is convincing the kids who are born to bad circumstances not to bother trying to succeed in spite of them. If the objective is to maximize the odds of a poor kid born to a single mother failing, then that's a great thing for us to do. I hope that's not what people really want though, so then the question is "why the hell keep arguing this?".
Quote:
Now, as long as that one parent at least cares, the unlucky kid has a shot at success through his own hard work. No guarantees, and if the kid doesn't have a parent who cares, he's @#%^ed no matter how hard he tries. Try doing anything before you're 18 without a parent's signature.
Again, I disagree with the "no matter how hard he tries" part. Statistics are against him, but statistics are the result of people's choices, not the cause of them.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
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