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#252 Jul 15 2013 at 8:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .
[quote=gbaji]Martin wasn't bright enough to realize that the person he decided to bully might be armed, and paid for that mistake with his life. What we can hope is that the next kid who thinks he can knock someone around because he's bigger and stronger will remember what happened to Martin and realize that it might cost him his life, and maybe *not* do what Martin ***************** that was easy.
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#253 Jul 15 2013 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .


Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal, and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


So, I ask again. What evidence do you have to support the speculation that Martin was about to commit a crime?
#254 Jul 15 2013 at 10:00 PM Rating: Good
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I am not Trayvon Martin.

I did many of the same things he did in school; smoked pot, got in trouble from time to time, was even suspended once. For some crazy reason nobody thought my lily white *** was any sort of violent, dangerously subhuman criminal for it; instead I was given the benefit of the doubt and my ordinary teenage behavior was classified as ordinary teenager behavior instead of "thuggery" or being a "gangster" whatever the codeword for "n*****" is today. I was allowed to live long enough to outgrow it. Funny how that works.

No self-appointed vigilante has ever felt some sort of burning need to stalk me in the middle of the night or demand I justify my presence to them just because I had the nerve to walk to the corner grocery store. If they had, I'm fairly certain I would have panicked, maybe thrown a punch or tried to run. If they had shot me because of my completely normal reaction to their bizarre, aggressive behavior I am pretty sure they'd have been in jail that night and remained there after the very short trial, because killing a white kid who was committing no crime whatsoever is actually recognized as illegal in this country. If Zimmerman had shot me, he wouldn't be clean-cut harmless "Georgie," he'd be the "dangerous hispanic man with a lengthy criminal record who executed an unarmed teenager." Funny how that works.

Somehow I think that jury of mostly white women would've had an easier time identifying with my unarmed, candy-carrying corpse than Trayvon's. Somehow I think all the racists who can barely contain their glee at Zimmerman getting away scot free would be pretty happy with the exact opposite verdict if "Georgie" had stalked and shot a white kid. Funny how that works.


From here.
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#255 Jul 15 2013 at 11:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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#256 Jul 16 2013 at 5:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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^^ This.
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#257 Jul 16 2013 at 7:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It's bad enough when posters on this forum repeat "facts" that are absolutely untrue, but it should be a big giant warning flare that the following is BS (or at least very biased) when an article repeats such an untruth:
Guess now you know how the rest of us feel when you post.
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#258 Jul 16 2013 at 2:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Friar Bijou wrote:
gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .
gbaji wrote:
Martin wasn't bright enough to realize that the person he decided to bully might be armed, and paid for that mistake with his life. What we can hope is that the next kid who thinks he can knock someone around because he's bigger and stronger will remember what happened to Martin and realize that it might cost him his life, and maybe *not* do what Martin did.
@#%^, that was easy.


That happened well after Zimmerman got out of his car though. You're right. That was easy!

Alma is arguing that Zimmerman is guilty of murder because when he got out of the car and decided to follow Martin, he could not at that moment prove that Martin had committed or was going to commit a crime. Which is a completely ridiculous standard. Which I've stated several times.
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#259 Jul 16 2013 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
I have not said that Martin was about to commit a crime. My position does not rest on any assumption that Martin was about to commit a crime. .


Gbaji wrote:
The actions of Martin far more match that of someone who was up to no good, was perhaps scoping out the neighborhood or looking for something to vandalize/steal, and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


So, I ask again. What evidence do you have to support the speculation that Martin was about to commit a crime?


You do understand the definition of "speculation", right?


How do you get from me speculating, to an absolute requirement that said speculation must be proven, otherwise Zimmerman is guilty of murder? That's a stretch, don't you think? Zimmerman had every right to get out of his car. He had every right to follow Martin. He does not have to prove that Martin is or will commit a crime, to do so. So the fact that he got out of his car and followed Martin does not make him a murderer.
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#260 Jul 16 2013 at 2:33 PM Rating: Default
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No self-appointed vigilante has ever felt some sort of burning need to stalk me in the middle of the night or demand I justify my presence to them just because I had the nerve to walk to the corner grocery store. If they had, I'm fairly certain I would have panicked, maybe thrown a punch or tried to run. If they had shot me because of my completely normal reaction to their bizarre, aggressive behavior I am pretty sure they'd have been in jail that night and remained there after the very short trial, because killing a white kid who was committing no crime whatsoever is actually recognized as illegal in this country.


And the neighborhood watch member would be the one exhibiting bizarre, aggressive behavior in that scenario? We're living in upside down world.

No. Mr. Lily White Idiot who posted that would not have done those things. If an obvious security guard, watchman, or police officer had walked up to him to question him about his behavior, he would have stood there and talked to him, convinced him that he wasn't doing anything wrong, and then gone home to play video games. That's the reason his odds of getting shot and killed are like 1/100th of that of a black kid his same age and socio-economic condition.

The problem is that black kids are taught to fear authority figures. Especially white authority figures (or those that merely appear white). That fear leads them to doing incredibly stupid things, for what appears to be absolutely no reason at all. They run from police. They attack the nosy watchman. They hide from the security guard. They think they have to do this because they've had it drilled into them that they will be treated unfairly and that there is no justice for them. Sadly, in cases like Martin's we find that this becomes a self fulfilling prediction.

Had he simply continued walking at a normal pace towards his home, he would not have been shot and killed. His own fear was the cause of his death. And *that's* the real problem we ought to be talking about.
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#261 Jul 16 2013 at 4:27 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:
You do understand the definition of "speculation", right?


How do you get from me speculating, to an absolute requirement that said speculation must be proven, otherwise Zimmerman is guilty of murder? That's a stretch, don't you think? Zimmerman had every right to get out of his car. He had every right to follow Martin. He does not have to prove that Martin is or will commit a crime, to do so. So the fact that he got out of his car and followed Martin does not make him a murderer.


You didn't answer the question. Facts are what differentiate "speculation" from "prejudice". You know that Martin was on the phone with a bag of skittles. So what facts do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime? If you have no facts, then by definition, you are prejudging not speculating. Maybe you're the one who needs to understand those definitions.

If you misspoke, just man up and admit it.
#262 Jul 16 2013 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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Well, supposing that black kids are taught to fear authority figures, by the authority figures themselves, does seem to be quite a problem. Zimm assuming that Tray was criminalizin' causes just as much trouble as Tray assuming that Zimm assumes that he's criminalizin'.
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#263 Jul 16 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
You do understand the definition of "speculation", right?


You didn't answer the question. Facts are what differentiate "speculation" from "prejudice". You know that Martin was on the phone with a bag of skittles. So what facts do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime? If you have no facts, then by definition, you are prejudging not speculating. Maybe you're the one who needs to understand those definitions.


Seriously? Way to prove my point.

Quote:
If you misspoke, just man up and admit it.


I used precisely the correct word (yes, I chose that dictionary for a reason. gotta keep things as simple as possible):

1 : to think about something and make guesses about it : to form ideas or theories about something usually when there are many things not known about it [no obj] ▪ She could only speculate about/on her friend's motives. ▪ He speculated as to whether she would come. ▪ We don't know what happened—we can only speculate. [+ obj] — + that ▪ Scientists speculate that the illness is caused by a virus.


Speculations, by definition, do not require proof. Cause they're... wait for it... speculations. WTF!?

Edited, Jul 16th 2013 6:24pm by gbaji
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#264 Jul 16 2013 at 7:33 PM Rating: Default
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Debalic wrote:
Well, supposing that black kids are taught to fear authority figures, by the authority figures themselves, does seem to be quite a problem. Zimm assuming that Tray was criminalizin' causes just as much trouble as Tray assuming that Zimm assumes that he's criminalizin'.


It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?

If I were to guess (or speculate even!), I might think we're talking about a pretty huge ratio tilting towards more bad results if they fear the authority versus the other way around.
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#265 Jul 16 2013 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Which is Gbaji speak for "I'm talking out my ***".
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#266 Jul 16 2013 at 9:22 PM Rating: Default
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Gbaji wrote:

Speculations, by definition, do not require proof. Cause they're... wait for it... speculations. WTF!?


I do recall specifically saying in the last post "facts". You're confusing the word "fact" with "proof". A fact isn't proof of anything happening. "Zimmerman is a man", is a fact. That isn't proof that he's guilty of any crime. Just because you can't PROVE something, does not negate facts. Again, that's the difference between speculating and prejudging.

So, I ask again. What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?



Notice how the first definition, without proof, involves a thought process while the second definition does not involve either? Just because you can't PROVE it, does not negate facts.


1.to engage in thought or reflection; meditate (often followed by on, upon, or a clause).

2.to indulge in conjectural thought.

3.to engage in any business transaction involving considerable risk or the chance of large gains, especially to buy and sell commodities, stocks, etc., in the expectation of a quick or very large profit.



1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2.any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

3.unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

4.such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.

5.damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.




Edited, Jul 17th 2013 5:23am by Almalieque
#267 Jul 16 2013 at 9:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
Alma is arguing that Zimmerman is guilty of murder because when he got out of the car and decided to follow Martin, he could not at that moment prove that Martin had committed or was going to commit a crime. Which is a completely ridiculous standard. Which I've stated several times.


Uh? I'm not sure where you got that nonsense from. That's the reason why I'm attacking this one point at a time, because you seem to mix stuff together with stuff that you made up. Very common on this forum.
#268 Jul 17 2013 at 4:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?
He was black, wearing a hoodie and eating skittles, which everyone knows unleashes the BEAST mode.
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#269 Jul 17 2013 at 6:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Gbaji wrote:
It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?


Uppity black folk. How dare they attempt to stand up for their rights!

What right does someone have to be a black youth in this country after getting into an altercation with a creepy dude whom outweighs him by 100lbs & was arrested & charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer" (but got off because his Dad was a magistrate & he went to rehab), after being stalked both in a truck & on foot, to swing back?

None, in Florida, apparently. But if Martin had a legal gun on him, I'm supposed to believe he would have found innocent if Zimmerman died?

Laughable.
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#270 Jul 17 2013 at 6:30 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
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What FACTS do you have that supports the speculation of Martin about to commit a crime?
He was black, wearing a hoodie and eating skittles, which everyone knows unleashes the BEAST RAINBOW mode.

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#271 Jul 17 2013 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Sigh...

Almalieque wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
and then when he realized that he was being watched, he didn't think "there's some creepy guy who might be a murderer", he almost certainly thought "There's a guy who might be part of the neighborhood watch, and he saw me poking around the houses along the road, so I'd better run before he gets a good look at me".

Speculation on my part? Absolutely. But who runs away just because they see someone sitting in a parked car on the side of the road? Not someone innocently walking home from the store.


Given the fact he had nothing on him to prove any guilt of anything else other than being at the wrong place at the wrong time, your speculation has no value.



Are we done with your ridiculous line of nutty reasoning now? I'm not even sure what point you're arguing. I said at the very beginning that this was just speculation on my part. However, it's as legitimate (more legitimate IMO) a line of speculation as the idea that Martin thought Zimmerman was some kind of crazed killer out to get him. ****. Martin's girlfriend even gave an interview this week where she said straight out that "Craka" in her vocabulary (and Martin's) didn't refer to a white person but to a person of authority (police, security, etc). Which kinda does support my speculation that Martin thought Zimmerman was a member of the watch who was calling the police on him, and that's why he ran.

Add in the fact that he chose not to call 911 (which you'd think he'd do if he really thought there was a criminal chasing him rather than a watch member), and that he chose not to run directly home, and it further strengthens the idea that he might have been fleeing Zimmerman, not because he thought Zimmerman was a criminal, but because he saw Zimmerman as an extension of the law.

Again, this is speculation on my part. But I think it's pretty reasonable speculation. It certainly fits the facts better than "Black kid fleeing from someone he thought was a mugger/rapist/killer".
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#272 Jul 17 2013 at 3:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. And let me point out again, that there's no requirement for proof of a suspicion, to be suspicious, nor is that a requirement for a watch member to walk up to someone and ask them who they are and determine if they are supposed to be in the community. Claiming so is a ridiculous standard.
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#273 Jul 17 2013 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
It would be interesting to find some research on the ratio of cases where African Americans are actually mistreated by police or other authority figures compared to the number of cases where their fear of being mistreated causes them to take actions which then cause the authority figure to respond in a harmful way towards them. That would seem to be relevant in a case like this, where we might want to think about Martins odds of being shot to death if he walks home openly and calmly (and willing to allow Zimmerman to approach and question him) versus running and hiding from Zimmerman. How often really does allowing the authority to approach and talk to you and taking the risk that he'll arrest you or beat you for no reason really result in harm versus choosing to flee, hide, or fight?


Uppity black folk. How dare they attempt to stand up for their rights!


What rights are we talking about? I'm talking about the idea that in many cases it's not a difference in skin color that causes differences in outcomes, but differences in behavior, and that those differences of behavior themselves arise from black kids being taught to distrust and even fear law enforcement of any kind. Can you really be so sure that if a white kid had behaved exactly as Martin did that night that the outcome would have been different? I'm presenting for consideration the idea that whatever rate of actual racial discrimination towards black males that may exist among our law enforcement is significantly outweighed by the rate of fear based behavior by black males creating reactions from the police which cause negative outcomes for black males.

This is *not* a violation of anyone's rights, nor is it racial discrimination unless you can really argue that if a white kid had done exactly what Martin did, that the outcome would have been different. And I don't think you can really make a strong argument for that.

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What right does someone have to be a black youth in this country after getting into an altercation with a creepy dude whom outweighs him by 100lbs & was arrested & charged with "resisting officer with violence" and "battery of law enforcement officer" (but got off because his Dad was a magistrate & he went to rehab), after being stalked both in a truck & on foot, to swing back?


He has precisely the same rights to do those things as a white person does. The statistic is less about the other guy treating Martin differently because he's black, as it is about Martin acting differently because he's black. So maybe that's the problem? Just a thought.

Quote:
None, in Florida, apparently. But if Martin had a legal gun on him, I'm supposed to believe he would have found innocent if Zimmerman died?


Sure. If he'd been the one with the busted up nose, and witnesses reporting him on his back being punched by Zimmerman just before he fired, why assume otherwise? Ever consider that maybe that assumption is the root of the problem here? Perception not matching reality and all of that?

Quote:
Laughable.


Is it? Or do you just assume it is? The problem is that the media only reports stories that fit the narrative you're acting on. Clearly there are cases of shootings by black people of white people that do not result in murder/manslaughter convictions. ****, the PBS article link clearly shows that there are since it measures how much more often the shooter is released based on SYG laws being present). Happens all the time. You just don't hear about it. Black man being found not guilty, or even not being charged, on the basis of self defense doesn't make the news. But it does happen.
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#274 Jul 17 2013 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Trying to rush to 30k Gbaji?
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#275 Jul 17 2013 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Trying to rush to 30k Gbaji?


Nah. I usually don't get on to read this site until later in the day PST, so I'm often responding to several posts which responded to whatever I posted the day before. That and not enough threads going on.
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#276 Jul 17 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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I mean the double and triple posting. Surely it doesn't matter if you have a long post or a very long post. People are going to skim or skip it anyway.
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