Zimmerman TrialFollow

Gbajis argument is that since Martin didn't go directly home, then he must have been up to no good. Personally, if I think someone is following me, I wouldn't go STRAIGHT home. I might go there in a round about way, but not directly to my home. That also depends on the level of paranoia at the time.

Maybe it's my paranoia, but I would try to lose the person either through "hidden areas" and/or populated areas. In no way would I let a person who's following me know exactly where I live.



The same way he doesn't comprehend that people typically drag their feet, walk in circles, along with other mannerisms when outside on a cell phone with no sense of urgency. I don't know how many times I thought someone was crazy before I realized that they had an earpiece.

I would say that happens often.

Given the fact that Zimmerman didn't know that Martin was on the phone, it's obvious that he thought the same thing as well. So Martin's "suspicious activities" weren't at all suspicious when you factor in the fact that he was on the phone. Add in the sentiment that you mentioned about talking on the phone with a significant other, there was probably no rush to go home.

The timeline of events, firmly established via the logs of the phone call by Zimmerman, the calls by Martin, and numerous calls made to 911.

There was too much time between when Martin ran from Zimmerman (clearly timestamped in the call he made to police), and when Martin was shot, and far far too little distance covered. We're talking about 3 and a half minutes, yet the spot where they were seen to be fighting (and where Martin was shot), was maybe 100-120 feet from where Martin ran into the complex.

If he was even just walking briskly directly home, he should have been inside his house well before the two of them encountered each other on that walkway (and he should have been 150 feet or so south of where they ran into each other). This calls into question the claim that Martin was heading home the whole time. He simply could not have been doing so. He either looped around via some route that took him away from the direction towards his home *or* he was hiding somewhere in the vicinity where he eventually encountered Zimmerman.

I linked to some maps of the complex earlier in this thread (and you're free to look them up yourself). The approximate location where Zimmerman was parked is not difficult to determine, nor is the route that Martin had to have taken when initially running away from Zimmerman and into the houses (there's literally only one pathway along that stretch of road). From that point, if he was headed home, he should have turned either south at the T intersection in the walkway *or* gone straight and then turned south at the other end of that walkway along the street on the other side. From either location it's then a direct south path to his home. No turns. No twists. This complex is not a labyrinth of confusing pathways. It's incredibly straightforward. Two parallel streets running north/south. Two rows of houses facing those streets. A walkway that connects one street to the other across the north end of the two rows. One walkway that heads south from that walkway (the T intersection they talk about) that runs behind both rows of houses (so the fronts face the streets, and the backs face the walkway).

Martin had ample time to run south either along the walkway behind the houses, or along the street that the front of his home faced. Either was a straight shot home. But somehow, despite several minutes time, he runs into Zimmerman right at the T intersection where that north walkway is. It makes absolutely zero sense for him to be there if he'd been heading home the whole time.


Again, this is not about testimony. This is about timestamps on various phone calls. Unless, of course, we assume that Zimmerman lied about every single thing in his initial phone call to police, including where he was, what street he was on, what part of the complex he was watching, etc. And that's a pretty crazy assumption to make. And it would be a silly thing for him to make up, given that he was calling the police and telling them where to meet him. If he wasn't parked where he said he was, what did he expect would happen? It's reasonable to assume that at least the most basic information in that phone call is accurate (what street he's looking down, the direction Martin was walking, the path Martin took, etc). We can choose to discount whether Zimmerman was objective in his interpretation of what Martin was doing, but not where he was when he was doing it.


That's why there's a huge question about this claim that Martin was just innocently trying to get home. It's one of the things at least one of the jurors mentions in an interview about the case too. They also could not accept that Martin didn't have some responsibility for the encounter precisely because the time line didn't add up. It clearly indicated that if Martin had just wanted to go home, he could have done so. We don't know why he didn't, but it's clear that this is the case. And once we reject that notion of him just trying to get home, then it becomes harder to assume that Zimmerman had to be the aggressor in the encounter. Doesn't prove things one way or the other, but it does take it from "he chased Martin down, so he was the aggressor" to "he couldn't have chased him down, cause there wasn't enough walkway for there to have been a chase". That leaves us in "we have no clue who started the fight". And that's sufficient doubt to end that line of inquiry.

A stretch? Sure. Out of the realm of possibility? No.

How do you know the bluetooth wasn't just a prop? She was only wearing it so her crazy ranting to the centerpiece appeared normal?

Sure. But a far more likely possibility is that Zimmerman actually did see behavior he interpreted as suspicious and called the police to report it. You know, just like any one might do.

Because he didn't have a gun to defend himself.

Or looking around to see if there's something to steal/vandalize? But let's just assume that the neighborhood watch guy can't tell the difference. Cart before horse, right? If you start with the assumption that Zimmerman was a racist who targeted a black youth to kill him, then you'll ignore all the reasonable explanations for what happened when they don't match that narrative.

I'm asking folks to assess what was said and happened without that starting assumption. When you do that, Zimmerman's actions are perfectly reasonable.



Why was he scared of him? At that point in time, all he knew of Zimmerman was that he was sitting in his car, talking on his phone, and had been watching him walk up the street. So you tell me what Martin thought about Zimmerman that made him so scared that he ran away.

Um... But it does constitute "facts" and "evidence" that Martin was doing what Zimmerman said he was doing in the call. The fact that Martin was also doing something else doesn't change that.




Huh? I agree that at the time Zimmerman made the call he believed that "This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something." Zimmerman saw something about Martin that made him think that. That's all I'm saying. There's no burden of proof to make a call to the police, yet you keep dwelling on this.



Huh? My speculation was about Martin's reasons for running from Zimmerman, not what Zimmerman thought about Martin. What Zimmerman thought about Martin is clearly stated in the police recording. He thinks he's either up to no good, or on drugs. He later says he's "looking at all the houses". That's what he said he saw.

My speculation was that Martin also realized that his behavior looked suspicious and believed that Zimmerman was calling the police on him, and that's why he ran. The "evidence" of this is that Zimmerman clearly did think that Martin's behavior was suspicious enough to call the police. It's not unreasonable to expect that Martin could figure this out. Whether he was actually planning on doing anything wrong at that point is irrelevant. If he realized that someone might think that what he was doing was suspicious, he could arrive at that conclusion and make the choice he did.

I'm trying to counter the idea that Martin ran from Zimmerman out of fear of some kind of criminal threat from Zimmerman. I think that the "threat" Martin was fleeing was the law.



How about you quote it now, since clearly I have no freaking clue what you are talking about.


All I can remember is you continually deflecting my question off on some tangent or other without ever answering it except to say that "Martin thought Zimmerman was suspicious". And when I asked (repeatedly) for more detail, you've ignored me. Care to give it another shot?


Edited, Aug 6th 2013 4:04pm by gbaji

Well yeah, like I said earlier, we've already been over this. Remember I said several pages ago I thought they both made some very dumb decisions? If anything this whole thing is a great case study for thinking things through before acting.

In the interest of full disclosure here's the someproteinguy take on the whole situation:

Martin was walking home. Along the way he was spotted by Zimmerman. Zimmerman saw something that seemed out of place with Martin's behavior, and decided to keep his eye on him. Martin noticed Zimmerman watching him and got nervous. Zimmerman thought Martin's behavior crossed a threshold and decided it would be a good idea to call the cops to come check it out. Martin decided that he needed to get out of this situation and started to run. Zimmerman saw Martin run and went after him. Instead of continuing to run, Martin turned around to confront Zimmerman. The confrontation turned ugly and escalated into a fist-fight. The fist-fight got nasty enough that Zimmerman felt his well-being was seriously in danger and shot Martin.

And just for fun here's what someproteinguy thinks should have happened:

Zimmerman should have called the cops, and then stayed put. Martin shouldn't have run, and just picked up his pace and headed straight home (he certainly should have escalated the situation, or turned back to confront Zimmerman. Neither of them helped the situation with what they said.). Cops would have come and they would have been directed to the house Martin was staying at. After a quick Q&A the whole situation would have been over and done with.

[:rose-colored glasses:]

Instead they both let their fears and emotions get the better of them, and it ruined 2 lives. If I feel worse for Martin it's probably because he's dead, and no one deserves that, even the dumb people. Spoiler(don't hold me to that, I may change my mind later... )

Two idiots go in, one comes out?

Edited, Aug 6th 2013 6:28pm by someproteinguy

Never get involved in a land war is Asia.