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#52 Mar 09 2013 at 9:53 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Half of america is stuck firmly in the 18th century, while honestly convinced they are the most free-living, privileged, people in the greatest nation on Earth.
Nine of our states have taken steps to legalize same-*** marriage. How's that going in Australia?
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#53 Mar 09 2013 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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There sure is a lot of bigotry up here.

Here's a rule for everyone: Women use the women's bathroom, and men use the men's bathroom. Done. Simple. No exceptions.

Here's the thing though, that some of you are missing. A trans woman is not a man who identifies as a woman. She is a woman. Like wise, a trans man is not a woman who identifies as a man. He's just a man. What someone's birth certificate says, or what their genitals look like (both of which can be changed by the way) doesn't really matter here. We don't assign bathrooms based on who has a *****, and who has a ******. Nor do we assign them based on what someone's original (or even current) birth certificate says. We assign bathrooms for men, and for women.

Sports are a little more complicated, because they segregate people based on athletic ability, to allow for better competitions. But then hey the Olympics will allow trans women to compete against other women (with some requirements), so maybe it's not so complicated either.

Sorry Kao, you can ban me now. I felt i had to say something.
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#54 Mar 09 2013 at 10:11 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Half of america is stuck firmly in the 18th century, while honestly convinced they are the most free-living, privileged, people in the greatest nation on Earth.
Nine of our states have taken steps to legalize same-*** marriage. How's that going in Australia?

That's why I said Half. The overwhelming majority of Americans I've kept as friends from guilds, or spent time on skype with, are intelligent, caring, empathic, open-minded and open-hearted people. Some of them are bitter, and behave misanthropically, because they are so angry/disillusioned by the narrow-mindedness of their fellow humans from all over the world, including the USA (which they care about). For example Mindel, Annabella, Cattattack, Barkingturtle's alter ego Kile, and Don't-Say-I-Have-Aids-Doug are some of the people you might recognise from here whom I treasure highly for their political opinions. There's dozens more I personally have as skype friends from elsewhere.

I'm bubbling over with excitement about the American States that have legalized same-*** marriage (and marijuana). *** Marriage is overwhelmingly supported by younger Australians, so It is frustrating waiting around for the politicians to catch up with the majority. If you want to find something horrific about Australia, look into the way that we have treated refugees arriving by boat over the last 20 years. We're contravening International Law and Human Rights Law, not to mention all morals and ethics when it comes to "boat People" or "Illegal Immigrants" (Hint, they aren't committing a crime by arriving by boat in order to claim refuge in a nation that is signatory to the Refugee convention). I am so disgusted by our two main political parties that I'm now voting for a minority party.
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#55 Mar 09 2013 at 10:14 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
But someone who is turned on by peeping is probably going to peep.

This is as silly as "Someone who wants to kill will just kill, gun or no." Allowing someone carte blanche to enter restrooms of the opposite *** opens up far more possibilities with far more ease than drilling holes in the walls or trying to hide cameras in the paper towel dispenser.
What we would be doing would be to segregate toilets not by simplistic ***, but by a the more nuanced and practical/wanted segregation by sexuality/orientation. The bis like me are just going to have to continue with bloody good bathroom etiquette and manners.

But if it's breaking people's brains, I don't mind having toilets marked "Men's", "Women's", "Disabled" and "Other"


I think Joph is saying that if you opened it up to anyone, that Joe, the Perv, Six Pack will say he's a gal on the inside just to get in and gawk at some ladies doing their business. Not that the ***/transgender folks are going to be bouncing between the two options peeping at who ever they want.
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#56 Mar 09 2013 at 10:27 PM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
But someone who is turned on by peeping is probably going to peep.

This is as silly as "Someone who wants to kill will just kill, gun or no." Allowing someone carte blanche to enter restrooms of the opposite *** opens up far more possibilities with far more ease than drilling holes in the walls or trying to hide cameras in the paper towel dispenser.
What we would be doing would be to segregate toilets not by simplistic ***, but by a the more nuanced and practical/wanted segregation by sexuality/orientation. The bis like me are just going to have to continue with bloody good bathroom etiquette and manners.

But if it's breaking people's brains, I don't mind having toilets marked "Men's", "Women's", "Disabled" and "Other"


I think Joph is saying that if you opened it up to anyone, that Joe, the Perv, Six Pack will say he's a gal on the inside just to get in and gawk at some ladies doing their business. Not that the ***/transgender folks are going to be bouncing between the two options peeping at who ever they want.
Yes, I got that, thank you.
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#57 Mar 09 2013 at 11:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If you were a trans woman trying to use a woman's restroom, and your license designated you as a woman, it would be in the establishment's best interest to allow you to use that restroom. Forcing you to use the mens room would be politically destructive for them. Even if no trans protection laws were passed preventing that, the political sh*tshow that would follow would teach business owners very quickly that it was in their best interest to accept the legal designation.

This is a bit different from the previous suggestion of "Let people go where they want".
Quote:
But I have serious difficulty imagining any sizable population of people would request a change to their legal gender identity simply to give them a slightly better opportunity to peep on women in the restroom.

Again, no one was making that suggestion. I was saying that a lassiez faire standard was an invitation for abuse.
Aripyanfar wrote:
What are you arguing for here Joph?

Nothing much beyond some sort of agreed upon standard. "Everyone do what they want" isn't a standard.
Aripyanfar wrote:
No really, we already have rules in place for this.

In the US, the rule is typically that the property owner sets the rules. If you're saying that trans people need or deserve protections against property owners that decide "Biological males go here, biological females go here" then there's something that needs to be discussed. If you're happy letting the management set the rules and everyone follows them without complaint then we're golden.
Aripyanfar wrote:
What we would be doing would be to segregate toilets not by simplistic ***, but by a the more nuanced and practical/wanted segregation by sexuality/orientation.

Not likely to happen anytime soon.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#58 Mar 09 2013 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Yes, I got that, thank you.


Sorry, didn't realize, since your anecdote mentioned earlier talked about working with transgenders who were polite when using the opposite of their birth *** restroom...
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#59 Mar 09 2013 at 11:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Here's the thing though, that some of you are missing. A trans woman is not a man who identifies as a woman. She is a woman. Like wise, a trans man is not a woman who identifies as a man. He's just a man. What someone's birth certificate says, or what their genitals look like (both of which can be changed by the way) doesn't really matter here.

Lovely notion. Utterly incorrect in the real world though. Legally speaking, in most of the US, legally changing your *** requires reassignment surgery and a court order. Even then it's not absolute; a trans woman can not marry a man in Illinois, even though she can get a new birth certificate (following surgery) saying she's a woman. If the state isn't interested in treating you as a woman, why should a property owner be held to the same onus?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#60 Mar 10 2013 at 12:04 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
Here's the thing though, that some of you are missing. A trans woman is not a man who identifies as a woman. She is a woman. Like wise, a trans man is not a woman who identifies as a man. He's just a man. What someone's birth certificate says, or what their genitals look like (both of which can be changed by the way) doesn't really matter here.

Lovely notion. Utterly incorrect in the real world though. Legally speaking, in most of the US, legally changing your *** requires reassignment surgery and a court order. Even then it's not absolute; a trans woman can not marry a man in Illinois, even though she can get a new birth certificate (following surgery) saying she's a woman. If the state isn't interested in treating you as a woman, why should a property owner be held to the same onus?
Oh well if the law discriminates against a class of people, then i guess it's just fine for everyone else to too.

Let's make gays use the wrong bathroom too.

Edited, Mar 10th 2013 1:06am by Rachel9
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#61 Mar 10 2013 at 12:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Oh well if the law discriminates against a class of people, then i guess it's just fine for everyone else to too.
Since you're so enlightened then it'd be easy for you to tell us whether this individual is a man or a woman, right?
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#62 Mar 10 2013 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
Oh well if the law discriminates against a class of people, then i guess it's just fine for everyone else to too.
Since you're so enlightened then it'd be easy for you to tell us whether this individual is a man or a woman, right?


I fully expected Lady Gaga.
#63 Mar 10 2013 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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I prefer facts, and the science is still out on that one.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#64 Mar 10 2013 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
Oh well if the law discriminates against a class of people, then i guess it's just fine for everyone else to too.
Since you're so enlightened then it'd be easy for you to tell us whether this individual is a man or a woman, right?

I can't possibly know based only on the information provided.
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#65 Mar 10 2013 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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Also, I thought I'd leave this here.

#66 Mar 10 2013 at 12:14 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
I can't possibly know based only on the information provided.
Okay, they say they're a woman.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#67 Mar 10 2013 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
I can't possibly know based only on the information provided.
Okay, they say they're a woman.

Then there's probably a good chance that she is a woman.
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#68 Mar 10 2013 at 12:26 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
Then there's probably a good chance that she is a woman.
Not probably, are they or aren't they a woman?
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#69 Mar 10 2013 at 12:27 AM Rating: Decent
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You have not provided enough information to be sure of anything.
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#70 Mar 10 2013 at 12:28 AM Rating: Good
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What information do you require before you let this individual into the woman's bathroom?
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#71 Mar 10 2013 at 12:31 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Okay, they say they're a woman.
That's good enough for me. If she isn't doing anything wrong, i see no reason to doubt her. I kind of like that whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

Edited, Mar 10th 2013 1:32am by Rachel9
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#72 Mar 10 2013 at 12:37 AM Rating: Good
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Rachel9 wrote:
Oh well if the law discriminates against a class of people, then i guess it's just fine for everyone else to too.

If that's the best response you can come up with, you have a long road ahead of ya.

Quote:
Let's make gays use the wrong bathroom too.

Homosexual males use the men's room just as straight men use the men's room, homosexual females use the ladies room just as straight females use the ladies room. Pretty cut & dry.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#73 Mar 10 2013 at 12:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Rachel9 wrote:
If she isn't doing anything wrong, i see no reason to doubt her.
But if they are lying then they are doing something wrong.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#74 Mar 10 2013 at 12:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rachel9 wrote:
I kind of like that whole innocent until proven guilty thing.

Generally speaking, public restrooms aren't court rooms. And property owners have multiple interests in ensuring that the correct people are entering the correct facilities before a problem arises rather than waiting for someone to act "guilty".
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#75 Mar 10 2013 at 12:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh for frig's sake it's not that hard. There are buildings where it's understood that the gays are in the "Mens" and the male-to-female trans are in the "Womens". There are less frequent buildings where it's understood that the gays are in with the "Women's". Government buildings here tend to have one stall per bathroom, so it doesn't matter much if someone needs the wrong one in an emergency, or if you're not quite in the right place for some people's sakes.

I just feel worried for obviously *** men who have to use the "Mens" in rural areas, and the Western Suburbs in Melbourne.

All that is needed is non-sexual bathroom etiquette, which almost always prevails. Unless you're in a heavy-duty ***** club, where it's understood that the Men's toilet stalls are also for ***.

Edited, Mar 10th 2013 2:01am by Aripyanfar
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#76 Mar 10 2013 at 1:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
There are buildings where it's understood that the gays are in the "Mens" and the male-to-female trans are in the "Womens". There are less frequent buildings where it's understood that the gays are in with the "Women's".

I've never been in a public building where this was de facto "understood". I imagine in a private office setting people would make whatever allowances they need to but it's not as though there's some universal standard in public settings.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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