Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Transgender rightsFollow

#902 Apr 03 2013 at 3:25 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
trickybeck wrote:
Not that I think it's so important to appease closed-minded gender normists. But if people arguing for genital-based bathroom usage are citing some sort of indescribable impoliteness, civil unrest, or ick factor, I think allowing transgendered bathroom use actually causes less of those things. After all, if you live in an urban area, you've probably shared a public bathroom with a transgendered person and never knew it, just as we've all changed clothes next to dozens of gay people in gym locker rooms without fistfights or societal collapse.


I think pretty much everyone is aware of that (most of us anyway). It's what I was talking about when I said that it's only not a problem because she's concealing from the other women in the restroom that she has a penis. Call me a weird kind of idealist (and I know this will shock some of you who have a stereotypical view of me), but I don't think that people should have to hide what they are. The problem, as several people have pointed out, is that currently there is an expectation that people with penises will use different restroom facilities than people with vaginas. Which puts us in the odd position of having the trans woman, wearing a dress, looking for all the world like a woman, being required to use the mens restroom because she has a penis. the only alternative is to do exactly what Rachel said: Basically lie (or in her case, pretend that restrooms are divided by gender, so it's perfectly ok what she's doing).

Where this gets really tricky, which I touched on earlier, is where do you draw the line in terms of self image with regard to this? If the argument were really based on what someone's gender identity is, and the problem is avoided because that person can use the restroom that matches their gender without raising a ruckus, then this assumes the external features of that person match with some stereotypical traits associated with that gender (which I suspect was what Alma was clumsily trying to say). But the very nature of transgendered people assumes that gender roles can't be assumed based on external appearance, so why stop short of clothing, demeanor, etc? Why say "I'm a woman because I like wearing dresses, and makeup, and heels, and ribbons in my hair, and I like playing with dolls". I know a number of women who'd find those assumptions offensive (at least one, violently so), but yet that's precisely what's assumed when we talk about trans use of a restroom matching their gender being less problematic than using the restroom matching their sex. It's only less of an issue if we assume the trans is taking on the outward appearance of the gender in question sufficiently to fool others.

I guess I just like to think these things a step or two father and ask "What are you fooling them about?" and "Is that really what we should be doing?". Unfortunately, there's no good answer to this. Yes, ideally we should have unisex restrooms, with private stalls in them, and be done with it. But there are a lot of people in our society who would not be comfortable with that, evidenced by the very slow adoption and general dissatisfaction with such arrangements when they are implemented. Implementing individual private restrooms works, but is expensive. This also just kicks the can down the road, so to speak. What about locker rooms? Showers (this started with a question about a public school, right)? What about sport attendance? There's also a push to allow trans kids to participate in sports based on their gender and not their sex. Which I imagine will cause all sorts of problems.

At some point, political correctness leads us to unworkable results and we should acknowledge that. You just can't adjust the rules to accommodate everyone, or you end out accommodating no one.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 2:26pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#903 Apr 03 2013 at 3:37 PM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,812 posts
Gbaji wrote:
(which I suspect was what Alma was clumsily trying to say)


How can you call what I say "clumsy" when Rachel refuses to answer questions that obviously contradicts his point? I don't see what you said any more or less "clumsy" than what I or Jophiel have said. Admittedly, I have partaken in the "You can't outwit me" contest, but outside of that, I see no difference.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
#904 Apr 03 2013 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
9,047 posts
gbaji wrote:
The problem, as several people have pointed out, is that currently there is an expectation that people with penises will use different restroom facilities than people with vaginas. Which puts us in the odd position of having the trans woman, wearing a dress, looking for all the world like a woman, being required to use the mens restroom because she has a penis. the only alternative is to do exactly what Rachel said: Basically lie (or in her case, pretend that restrooms are divided by gender, so it's perfectly ok what she's doing).


Last I checked the picture on the door was a dress, not a vagina.

In fact I've never seen a bathroom sign use a penis/vagina combo. It's always clothes, and clothes are way more about cultural expressions of gender than about penis and vagina.


Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 2:47pm by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky
#905 Apr 03 2013 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,403 posts
Alma: A then B therefore Q.

Whoever bites: No, A then B therefore C.

Alma: No it's Q, because P then Q

Someone else: If anything B, C then D, maybe E

Alma: No...

19 pages later we finally meet in the middle and figure out what random back alley Alma's mind went down while he was sitting around bored over the weekend. Whether it's intentional or clumsy, either way works for me. Smiley: rolleyes
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#906 Apr 03 2013 at 4:01 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
******
25,561 posts
Can't someone just take this thread out back and shoot it? It's for it's own good.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#907 Apr 03 2013 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
457 posts
Quote:
I think pretty much everyone is aware of that (most of us anyway). It's what I was talking about when I said that it's only not a problem because she's concealing from the other women in the restroom that she has a penis. Call me a weird kind of idealist (and I know this will shock some of you who have a stereotypical view of me), but I don't think that people should have to hide what they are.
So, do you announce that you have a penis every time you enter a bathroom with other people in it? Because trans men do use the same bathrooms as you, so no one can really be sure if you have a penis or not, if you don't announce it.

Quote:
Which puts us in the odd position of having the trans woman, wearing a dress, looking for all the world like a woman, being required to use the mens restroom because she has a penis. the only alternative is to do exactly what Rachel said: Basically lie (or in her case, pretend that restrooms are divided by gender, so it's perfectly ok what she's doing).
Maybe we're just from completely different cultures. Maybe that's the problem here. Where i am from (New Jersey), public bathrooms are either open to anyone, or are separated by gender. There is not a single public restroom that denies entrance to anyone based on sex. In fact, doing so would be illegal. So what crazy, backwards society do you live in?

Quote:
There's also a push to allow trans kids to participate in sports based on their gender and not their sex. Which I imagine will cause all sorts of problems.
If the Olympics can manage it, so can some middle school.
____________________________
#908 Apr 03 2013 at 4:05 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,403 posts
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Can't someone just take this thread out back and shoot it? It's for it's own good.

How about we just shove it in the shower with some of the homophobic threads and see what happens.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#909 Apr 03 2013 at 4:08 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The problem, as several people have pointed out, is that currently there is an expectation that people with penises will use different restroom facilities than people with vaginas. Which puts us in the odd position of having the trans woman, wearing a dress, looking for all the world like a woman, being required to use the mens restroom because she has a penis. the only alternative is to do exactly what Rachel said: Basically lie (or in her case, pretend that restrooms are divided by gender, so it's perfectly ok what she's doing).


Last I checked the picture on the door was a dress, not a vagina.


Are you arguing that only people wearing dresses may use the restroom with a dress on it? Can we please agree that this is a silly line of argument?

Quote:
In fact I've never seen a bathroom sign use a penis/vagina combo. It's always clothes, and clothes are way more about cultural expressions of gender than about penis and vagina.


Um... Cause it's an easily recognizable symbol that people can all understand? Don't read more into it than that.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#910 Apr 03 2013 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
******
41,289 posts
gbaji wrote:
Um... Cause it's an easily recognizable symbol that people can all understand?
Not in Ireland.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#911 Apr 03 2013 at 4:14 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
Rachel9 wrote:
So, do you announce that you have a penis every time you enter a bathroom with other people in it? Because trans men do use the same bathrooms as you, so no one can really be sure if you have a penis or not, if you don't announce it.


Only if you are a trans man though. See how that's relevant?

Quote:
Quote:
Which puts us in the odd position of having the trans woman, wearing a dress, looking for all the world like a woman, being required to use the mens restroom because she has a penis. the only alternative is to do exactly what Rachel said: Basically lie (or in her case, pretend that restrooms are divided by gender, so it's perfectly ok what she's doing).
Maybe we're just from completely different cultures. Maybe that's the problem here. Where i am from (New Jersey), public bathrooms are either open to anyone, or are separated by gender.


No, they aren't. You've somehow convinced yourself of this.

Quote:
There is not a single public restroom that denies entrance to anyone based on sex. In fact, doing so would be illegal.


You're kidding, right? What bubble are you living in?

Quote:
So what crazy, backwards society do you live in?


That's ironic. I'll tell you what. You and I go to 100 businesses with publicly available restrooms. I'll tell the owner that I have a penis and ask if it's ok to use the mens restroom, and you tell the owner that you have a penis and ask if it's ok to use the women's restroom. Let's compare how many "hell nos!" we get. Do we even need to do this test? Really?

Quote:
Quote:
There's also a push to allow trans kids to participate in sports based on their gender and not their sex. Which I imagine will cause all sorts of problems.
If the Olympics can manage it, so can some middle school.


The Olympics doesn't have mens and womens versions of their sporting competitions?

Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 3:14pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#912 Apr 03 2013 at 4:15 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Um... Cause it's an easily recognizable symbol that people can all understand?
Not in Ireland.


That's why they use a sheep symbol.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#913 Apr 03 2013 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,403 posts
gbaji wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
There's also a push to allow trans kids to participate in sports based on their gender and not their sex. Which I imagine will cause all sorts of problems.
If the Olympics can manage it, so can some middle school.


The Olympics doesn't have mens and womens versions of their sporting competitions?

No, I think it's that they have a way on the books for how to handle transgender athletes. Elinda (I think Smiley: um) linked something earlier about Maine's policy on transgender athletes as well? Something along the lines of "they can compete with whatever gender they associate with as long as they don't have an unfair psychical advantage" or something.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 3:33pm by someproteinguy
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#914 Apr 03 2013 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
14,033 posts
Rachel9 wrote:
Maybe we're just from completely different cultures. Maybe that's the problem here. Where i am from (New Jersey), public bathrooms are either open to anyone, or are separated by gender. There is not a single public restroom that denies entrance to anyone based on sex. In fact, doing so would be illegal. So what crazy, backwards society do you live in?


At the risk of being on the wrong side of the argument and being labelled a bigot or Alma-lover, I think you are wrong here.

You see it as gender because that's what your life as a transgender revolves around. The other 90% or so of the population doesn't think of gender, because to them Gender=Sex. It's not that they look at a Men's Restroom and say "This is for people of the male gender". They look at the Men's Restroom and think to themselves "This is for people with a penis". Because to them Male = Penis, Female = Vagina. That is still the dominating distinction in society.

I doubt you are announcing to the people around you in the public restroom that you are transgender. Just like Alma isn't announcing to the other users that he has a penis. Most people in the Men's restroom don't care if the other people in there do or don't have a penis, as long as they appear to be a man on the outside, they'll never bother questioning it.

I think it's foolish to pretend that society as a whole thinks Men and Women restrooms are divided by gender.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 7:05pm by TirithRR
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#915 Apr 03 2013 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
457 posts
Quote:
Only if you are a trans man though. See how that's relevant?
I don't understand what you are saying.

Quote:
You're kidding, right?
No, of course not. It's okay, i'll give you time to google it.

Quote:
The Olympics doesn't have mens and womens versions of their sporting competitions?
Yes, they do, and they allow trans women to compete with the women, and trans men to compete with the men.
____________________________
#916 Apr 03 2013 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
***
2,405 posts
TirithRR wrote:
They look at the Men's Restroom and think to themselves "This is for people with a penis".


I don't think that most people don't give it that much thought. They look at a restroom and say "That's the restroom I am supposed to use".

____________________________
Dandruffshampoo wrote:
Curses, beaten by Professor stupidopo-opo.
Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Stupidmonkey is more organized than a bag of raccoons.
#917 Apr 03 2013 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,403 posts
I hope they have a diaper changing table...
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#918 Apr 03 2013 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
2,405 posts
gbaji wrote:
I guess I just like to think these things a step or two father...


Thanks to his Freudian slip, we now can determine to whom Gbaji has been addressing all his posts.
____________________________
Dandruffshampoo wrote:
Curses, beaten by Professor stupidopo-opo.
Annabella, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Stupidmonkey is more organized than a bag of raccoons.
#919 Apr 03 2013 at 5:53 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
Adding back in what you were replying to, so that it makes more sense:

Rachel9 wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Rachel9 wrote:
So, do you announce that you have a penis every time you enter a bathroom with other people in it? Because trans men do use the same bathrooms as you, so no one can really be sure if you have a penis or not, if you don't announce it.


Only if you are a trans man though. See how that's relevant?


I don't understand what you are saying.


I'm saying that unless the person is a trans male, everyone else can be sure you have a penis (or at least do not have a vagina). Your statement is only true for trans males. Hence my repeated comments about you seeing this only from your own viewpoint. The other people in the restroom assume that the person who looks like a man, using the mens restroom, presumably has a penis and is of the male sex. They don't have an issue with it only because they don't know. If they did, I suspect a reasonable percentage of them might just have an issue.

Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
There is not a single public restroom that denies entrance to anyone based on sex. In fact, doing so would be illegal.


You're kidding, right? What bubble are you living in?


No, of course not. It's okay, i'll give you time to google it.


That there isn't a single public restroom in New Jersey (I assume you mean "restroom open to the public here") that denies entrance based on sex? I don't need to google it. I know that's a false statement. There's a difference between how anti-discrimination laws are interpreted by advocacy group (which I'm assuming is where you're getting your head filled with this stuff), and how the laws actually end out being implemented in practice. Again, the main reason you're not hearing an outcry when it happens is largely because people aren't aware of it. That's not the same as saying that's the way things are and everyone's just peachy with it. Also, there's been virtually zero court cases involving this, so to suggest that the matter is settled legally at all is questionable at best, and honestly smacks of wishful thinking. Get back to me when someone actually suffers a fine or something because he tells a trans person they can't use the "wrong" restroom.

Try the test I proposed. On paper assumptions about what the law means aside, most establishment owners will have an issue with a biological male using the restroom set aside for women. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, you're putting the owner of the restroom in an impossible situation. He either has to inconvenience a very small population, or everyone else.


Quote:
Quote:
The Olympics doesn't have mens and womens versions of their sporting competitions?
Yes, they do, and they allow trans women to compete with the women, and trans men to compete with the men.



Uh... I think you've got that wrong. The first openly transgender athlete was Keelin Gosey. He is a biological female, but gender male. He competed in the Women's hammer throw, not the mens. One of the issues he's facing is that when he undergoes re-assignment surgery, he will no longer be able to compete as a woman. So yes, they let transgenders compete, but only in events tied to their biological sex. At least openly. There have been transgendered people who have competed in the past, and concealed their sex. Which, much like doing so in the restroom may go by unnoticed, but is not considered "ok" by most people.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#920 Apr 03 2013 at 6:00 PM Rating: Excellent
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,625 posts
Is gbaji seriously suggesting that a transgender individual announce the current state of their gender every time they use a public restroom...?

____________________________
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007) wrote:
I am eternally grateful.. for my knack of finding in great books, some of them very funny books, reason enough to feel honored to be alive, no matter what else might be going on.
#921 Apr 03 2013 at 6:05 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
Belkira wrote:
Is gbaji seriously suggesting that a transgender individual announce the current state of their gender every time they use a public restroom...?


No. I'm saying that from the perspective of everyone else using the restroom, there's no difference between a transgender female using the women's restroom and a non transgender male wearing a dress so that he can use the women's restroom. In both cases, the only reason no one shouts out that they're using the wrong restroom pretty much every single time is because they have successfully disguised their sex from the other occupants.

That Rachel seems to think otherwise is cute and all, but completely wrong.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#922 Apr 03 2013 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
****
9,047 posts
TirithRR wrote:


You see it as gender because that's what your life as a transgender revolves around. The other 90% or so of the population doesn't think of gender, because to them Gender=Sex. It's not that they look at a Men's Restroom and say "This is for people of the male gender". They look at the Men's Restroom and think to themselves "This is for people with a penis". Because to them Male = Penis, Female = Vagina. That is still the dominating distinction in society.

I think it's foolish to pretend that society as a whole thinks Men and Women restrooms are divided by gender.



You said yourself that for most people "Gender=Sex" - so why would you then say that society as a whole doesn't think that restrooms are divided by gender? Since, as you say, people think of them as the same thing you can't have it both ways.

I agree the tendency is to conflate gender with sex, but just because most people in the middle ages thought the sun revolved around the earth didn't make it true, so why would the fact that people tend to confuse sex and gender make it right in any way? I don't think we need to establish that a lot of people are transphobic and uncomfortable with trans people using the washroom that matches who they are - that is a fact as this thread makes very clear.

But there is a difference between discrimination being widespread and it being okay. Even if 99 percent of cisgendered people think that it it is okay to discriminate against trans people that doesn't actually make it objectively right. If you look at any social justice struggle, there was always a point where the majority was okay with oppressing the minority.

Over time people come to recognize their prejudices, whether based on fear, hatred, or misinformation, are wrong. We have a long way to go but I look forward to the day when that happens with trans folks.

Quote:
You see it as gender because that's what your life as a transgender revolves around.


Assuming that just because someone is trans that their life revolves around gender is problematic. You wouldn't assume that because someone has diabetes their life revolves around blood sugar (even if it is something they have to pay attention to quite closely)- so why would you assume that trans people have their lives revolve around their gender?

It's a medical issue just like any other medical issue. Does it affect your life? Sure. Do you have to work around it/deal with people's ignorance? Yes. But that doesn't make you into a cardboard person with only one aspect to your life.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

clicky
#923 Apr 03 2013 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
14,033 posts
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
You said yourself that for most people "Gender=Sex" - so why would you then say that society as a whole doesn't think that restrooms are divided by gender? Since, as you say, people think of them as the same thing you can't have it both ways.


It's not both ways. I'm clearly saying that they are ignoring the meaning of gender, and going only by sex.


Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
I agree the tendency is to conflate gender with sex, but just because most people in the middle ages thought the sun revolved around the earth didn't make it true, so why would the fact that people tend to confuse sex and gender make it right in any way? I don't think we need to establish that a lot of people are transphobic and uncomfortable with trans people using the washroom that matches who they are - that is a fact as this thread makes very clear.

But there is a difference between discrimination being widespread and it being okay. Even if 99 percent of cisgendered people think that it it is okay to discriminate against trans people that doesn't actually make it objectively right. If you look at any social justice struggle, there was always a point where the majority was okay with oppressing the minority.

Over time people come to recognize their prejudices, whether based on fear, hatred, or misinformation, are wrong. We have a long way to go but I look forward to the day when that happens with trans folks.


I never said it was right, I said it was foolish for Rachel to sit here and say "Everyone obviously divides by gender". Because they don't. They don't even think of the two as being different.


Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
Quote:
You see it as gender because that's what your life as a transgender revolves around.


Assuming that just because someone is trans that their life revolves around gender is problematic. You wouldn't assume that because someone has diabetes their life revolves around blood sugar (even if it is something they have to pay attention to quite closely)- so why would you assume that trans people have their lives revolve around their gender?

It's a medical issue just like any other medical issue. Does it affect your life? Sure. Do you have to work around it/deal with people's ignorance? Yes. But that doesn't make you into a cardboard person with only one aspect to your life.


Ya, that's not how I meant it. "Life as a transgender" not "Life". Not that that is the only focus of his/her life. My penis is a very important part of my life as a Male. Doesn't mean it's the most important part of my life. While the whole life of the diabetic doesn't revolve around sugar, it is the center of their diet.
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#924 Apr 03 2013 at 6:41 PM Rating: Excellent
Cervixhouse-Five
******
30,625 posts
gbaji wrote:
Belkira wrote:
Is gbaji seriously suggesting that a transgender individual announce the current state of their gender every time they use a public restroom...?


No. I'm saying that from the perspective of everyone else using the restroom, there's no difference between a transgender female using the women's restroom and a non transgender male wearing a dress so that he can use the women's restroom. In both cases, the only reason no one shouts out that they're using the wrong restroom pretty much every single time is because they have successfully disguised their sex from the other occupants.

That Rachel seems to think otherwise is cute and all, but completely wrong.


Ok... So?

What, exactly, do you guys seem to think goes on in the ladies room...? Pillow fights in our underwear and lesbian orgies? It's still a toilet for the love of Pete.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 7:42pm by Belkira
____________________________
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007) wrote:
I am eternally grateful.. for my knack of finding in great books, some of them very funny books, reason enough to feel honored to be alive, no matter what else might be going on.
#925 Apr 03 2013 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
457 posts
Quote:
I'm saying that unless the person is a trans male, everyone else can be sure you have a penis (or at least do not have a vagina). Your statement is only true for trans males. Hence my repeated comments about you seeing this only from your own viewpoint. The other people in the restroom assume that the person who looks like a man, using the mens restroom, presumably has a penis and is of the male sex. They don't have an issue with it only because they don't know. If they did, I suspect a reasonable percentage of them might just have an issue.
Yes, exactly. Some of the people who go into men's bathrooms do not have a penis. So no one can really be sure that any person in a men's bathroom has one, unless they ask, or find out in some other way. So you should probably just announce it, to put everyone's mind at ease.

Quote:
Uh... I think you've got that wrong. The first openly transgender athlete was Keelin Gosey. He is a biological female, but gender male. He competed in the Women's hammer throw, not the mens. One of the issues he's facing is that when he undergoes re-assignment surgery, he will no longer be able to compete as a woman. So yes, they let transgenders compete, but only in events tied to their biological sex. At least openly. There have been transgendered people who have competed in the past, and concealed their sex. Which, much like doing so in the restroom may go by unnoticed, but is not considered "ok" by most people.
http://www.outsports.com/2011/9/12/4051806/moment-22-international-olympic-committee-allows-transgender-athletes Whether it's happened or not, it's been allowed since 2004.
____________________________
#926 Apr 03 2013 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
TirithRR wrote:
Iron Chef Olorinus wrote:
You said yourself that for most people "Gender=Sex" - so why would you then say that society as a whole doesn't think that restrooms are divided by gender? Since, as you say, people think of them as the same thing you can't have it both ways.


It's not both ways. I'm clearly saying that they are ignoring the meaning of gender, and going only by sex.


Correct. For most people gender is synonymous with sex, and both mean "biological sex based on physical features". It's only very recently that our broader society has even acknowledged that for some gender and sex may be different. So it's somewhat bizarre to argue that a distinction like mens and womens restrooms, which have existed for much longer, are really related to gender and not sex when we consider them separately. It's just a laughable suggestion. Of course the distinction is based on sex. It has to be. Unless Rachel is arguing that our society has recognized gender identity as separate from biological sex for as long as we've identified restrooms as mens and womens? Which is also laughable.

Quote:
I never said it was right, I said it was foolish for Rachel to sit here and say "Everyone obviously divides by gender". Because they don't. They don't even think of the two as being different.


Yup. I'd love to live in a world where we don't care about such things at all. I just recognize that we don't and try to accurately assess how society really looks at things. And right now, right or wrong, the overwhelming majority of our society separates men and women by sex, and not gender. The fact that a trans person can often be treated as the gender they associate with isn't because everyone else recognizes them by gender, but because they associate their gender characteristics with a given sex and assume the person is that sex.

So if Rachel doesn't constantly have people yelling at her for using the women's restroom, it's not because society recognizes that her female gender gives her the right to use that restroom, but because her female appearance make them assume she's of the female sex. I think she's deluding herself if she thinks otherwise.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2013 6:03pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#927 Apr 03 2013 at 7:00 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,870 posts
Rachel9 wrote:
Quote:
Uh... I think you've got that wrong. The first openly transgender athlete was Keelin Gosey. He is a biological female, but gender male. He competed in the Women's hammer throw, not the mens. One of the issues he's facing is that when he undergoes re-assignment surgery, he will no longer be able to compete as a woman. So yes, they let transgenders compete, but only in events tied to their biological sex. At least openly. There have been transgendered people who have competed in the past, and concealed their sex. Which, much like doing so in the restroom may go by unnoticed, but is not considered "ok" by most people.
http://www.outsports.com/2011/9/12/4051806/moment-22-international-olympic-committee-allows-transgender-athletes Whether it's happened or not, it's been allowed since 2004.


Yeah. You're still wrong. They're allowed to compete as their current sex. Not based on gender. So a biological male who has a female gender cannot compete as a woman unless he undergoes gender reassignment surgery. Same deal in reverse. Once again, the differentiation is based on sex, not gender. Which is the exact opposite of what you claimed.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#928 Apr 03 2013 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
457 posts
Quote:
The fact that a trans person can often be treated as the gender they associate with isn't because everyone else recognizes them by gender, but because they associate their gender characteristics with a given sex and assume the person is that sex.
That explains why openly trans people, or trans people who were known by at least 1 person before they transitioned are always treated as if they were their assigned gender.
____________________________
#929 Apr 03 2013 at 7:24 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
14,033 posts
Of course. It's not like this whole thread was started when a kid who identified as a girl by gender using the little girl's room was discovered to be a boy by sex...

Right?
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#930 Apr 03 2013 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
457 posts
TirithRR wrote:
Of course. It's not like this whole thread was started when a kid who identified as a girl by gender using the little girl's room was discovered to be a boy by sex...

Right?
Right, it was more like they were just fine treating her as a girl for over a year, until some kid probably told their parents, who decided they hated a 6 year old girl so much, they just had to do whatever they could to make her miserable.
____________________________
#931Almalieque, Posted: Apr 03 2013 at 7:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm going out on a limb and say that the 6 year old has very limited understanding of sex and gender.
#932 Apr 03 2013 at 7:54 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
457 posts
Almalieque wrote:
I'm going out on a limb and say that the 6 year old has very limited understanding of sex and gender.
You're wrong.
____________________________
#933Almalieque, Posted: Apr 03 2013 at 7:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Smiley: lol Sure, the kid who believes in the Easter bunny, Santa Claus and has no idea how the human reproduction system works completely understands sex and gender in social and biological settings.
#934 Apr 03 2013 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
457 posts
Well there is something in between "very limited understanding" and "completely understands", but okay.

Ask pretty much any trans person when they knew they were trans. Overwhelmingly, you will hear ages 3-7, or always.
____________________________
#935 Apr 04 2013 at 6:11 AM Rating: Good
Everyone's Oiran
Avatar
*****
15,886 posts
It's actually one of the indicative markers of a transgender, what confusions they have about sex and gender when they are very very young. A little boy who assumes that his penis will fall off, and that he will naturally grow breasts and turn into a woman when he grows up: That's the sort of little boy that grows up insisting he's a woman trapped in a man's body. And the little girl who thinks she will naturally grow a penis and a beard when she grows into up to be a man, that's the sort of person who keeps insisting he's a man trapped in a woman's body.
____________________________
<3

http://www.reddit.com/r/Forum4/
#936 Apr 04 2013 at 6:14 AM Rating: Good
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,614 posts
19 fucking pages and does anyone honestly beleive anyone here is better off because of fit?

I didn't think so...

Lock please.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#937 Apr 04 2013 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
14,829 posts
Uglysasquatch wrote:
19 fucking pages and does anyone honestly beleive anyone here is better off because of fit?

I didn't think so...

Lock please.
Seriously, is anyone better off from reading any of these threads?

You might have a better case arguing that anyone here is worse off for having read the thread (though I can't imagine many read the entire 10 pages - I know I didn't). Also you'd need to do a study to determine the type and degree of impact.

But lastly, why lock it?
Why read it?
Why acknowledge it's existence in any way at all?

Pretend the title reads 'Transistor rights'. Since you have no interest in the rights of transistors you can pass it over unbothered.
____________________________
LOOK here.
#938 Apr 04 2013 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,614 posts
Elinda wrote:
Seriously, is anyone better off from reading any of these threads?.
Some threads, actually contain information that many people did not know, and therefore, are informative. This thread consists almost entirely of gbaji and Alma. There is nothing informative in those posts.

I mean, if your objective is to obfuscate and to spread disinformation, by all means, keep this abomination going.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#939 Apr 04 2013 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
14,829 posts
Uglysasquatch wrote:

I mean, if your objective is to obfuscate and to spread disinformation, by all means, keep this abomination going.

Thanks. Smiley: smile

I'm kind of intrigued with the Alma - Rachel9 relationship. I'd like to see where it goes.
____________________________
LOOK here.
#940 Apr 04 2013 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,614 posts
Now that that's settled, I'll go back to ignoring this for a few more pages before I request another lock.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#941 Apr 04 2013 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
******
41,289 posts
Uglysasquatch wrote:
This thread consists almost entirely of gbaji and Alma.
While they are the usual guilty suspects, this runaway thread has no innocent sides.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#942 Apr 04 2013 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
14,829 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
This thread consists almost entirely of gbaji and Alma.
While they are the usual guilty suspects, this runaway thread has no innocent sides.
inoright. If this thread were busted, even Ugly would be indicted.


____________________________
LOOK here.
#943 Apr 04 2013 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,614 posts
I just want this thread locked to ruin Alma's fun. He's spending too much time in here not to be enjoying himself.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#944 Apr 04 2013 at 7:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Elinda wrote:
Pretend the title reads 'Transistor rights'. Since you have no interest in the rights of transistors you can pass it over unbothered.

I feel as though I'm a robot trapped in a fleshy shell. Why won't anyone stand up for me?!
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#945 Apr 04 2013 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,403 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Pretend the title reads 'Transistor rights'. Since you have no interest in the rights of transistors you can pass it over unbothered.

I feel as though I'm a robot trapped in a fleshy shell. Why won't anyone stand up for me?!

Don't retreat, rewire.
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#946 Apr 04 2013 at 9:19 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*****
10,856 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Pretend the title reads 'Transistor rights'. Since you have no interest in the rights of transistors you can pass it over unbothered.

I feel as though I'm a robot trapped in a fleshy shell. Why won't anyone stand up for me?!


Just submit to the mandatory reprogramming and everything will be fine.
____________________________
Shaowstrike (Retired - FFXI)
91PUP/BLM 86SMN/BST 76DRK
Cooking/Fishing 100


"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."
— James D. Nicoll
#947 Apr 04 2013 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
******
41,289 posts
Box wrote:
Shaowstrike the Shady wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Pretend the title reads 'Transistor rights'. Since you have no interest in the rights of transistors you can pass it over unbothered.
I feel as though I'm a robot trapped in a fleshy shell. Why won't anyone stand up for me?!
Just submit to the mandatory reprogramming and everything will be fine.
Welcome Humans! I am ready for you.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#948 Apr 04 2013 at 9:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
******
25,561 posts
gbaji wrote:
I'm saying that from the perspective of everyone else using the restroom, there's no difference between a transgender female using the women's restroom and a non transgender male wearing a dress so that he can use the women's restroom.
Other way around but you're basically saying people see no difference between a woman in men's clothing and a transgender man?

Because I don't know about you but I think even Bijou can see that difference from a mile away.
____________________________
Theophany wrote:
YOU'RE AN ELITIST @#%^ AETHIEN, NO WONDER YOU HAVE NO FRIENDS AND PEOPLE HATE YOU.
someproteinguy wrote:
Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
Astarin wrote:
One day, Maz, you'll learn not to click on anything Aeth links.
#949Almalieque, Posted: Apr 04 2013 at 10:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Don't fool yourself. The topic of the thread doesn't prevent the same outcome. They all reduce to the same type of topic.
#950 Apr 04 2013 at 10:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,614 posts
Only when you're involved, my notfriend.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#951 Apr 04 2013 at 10:34 AM Rating: Default
Avatar
****
8,812 posts
I've been here long enough to know that isn't true.
____________________________
Demea wrote:
Almalieque wrote:

I'm biased against statistics
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 50 All times are in CDT
Debalic, Jophiel, lolgaxe, Sandinmygum, Anonymous Guests (46)