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Transgender rightsFollow

#1 Mar 09 2013 at 11:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Lately, I've seen several stories via Yahoo/Facebook, etc. on discrimination towards transgenders. The first being a mother who is suing a school because her 6 year old boy, who identifies himself as a girl, was being treated like a boy. Then I saw another story about transgenders being allowed in the military and finally complaints about "physical advantages" over transgenders in a modeling contest and MMA fighting.

People often include discrimination against transgenders along with homosexuals (which is ironic), but they are completely two different scenarios which should be treated separately. I'm not familiar with the appropriate jargon (i.e. transgender vs transsexual, etc.); however, a person who dresses/behaves as a person of the opposite *** (regardless of sexuality) isn't the same as a person requesting society to ignore their innate *** in regards to specific *** based scenarios.

I believe there should be a fine line between "Freely expressing yourself as the *** of your choice" and allowing people to violate *** based regulations due to their expression.

What say ye?
#2 Mar 09 2013 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Well, I never had a problem with *** men and male-to-female trans people using the female toilets over here. It just made social sense, because they either weren't interested in me (the gays) or felt safer being in with me (trans females). If any of them were bi, or like transgender lesbians, they were polite enough to completely ignore the women around them. No harm, no foul.
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#3 Mar 09 2013 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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If society were more "unisexual", then I would agree; however, *** is the most discriminating factor world wide. A man, who identifies himself as a woman, shouldn't be able to participate as a woman in sporting events or violate any other already placed *** restrictions. If society wants to remove those *** restrictions, then go for it. However, as long as those restrictions exist, they should be followed.
#4 Mar 09 2013 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I'm not familiar with the appropriate jargon (i.e. transgender vs transsexual, etc.)

*** is anatomy, gender is psychology.
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#5 Mar 09 2013 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
Since you seem to be referring to sports a lot, I'll just address that. I would say someone male who identifies as female probably should not be allowed to compete against females. We're talking about rare fringe cases here though, and I would say we probably have the capability to just deal with it on a case by case basis, and figure out if there is an advantage or not.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 1:26pm by Xsarus
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#7 Mar 09 2013 at 2:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's a case-by-case issue. Sometimes society segregates men and women by ***, sometimes by gender, sometimes both, sometimes neither. You can't create universal rules that will govern whole cases, because human beings aren't so easily sorted.

But the biggest issue is that most people entertain an extremely wrong notion of what *** is. We all learned about XX and XY in school, but the reality is that sexual gender is determined by more than just two chromosomes. Chromosomal abnormalities, such as having an extra X or Y chromosome, aren't all that uncommon at all, and plenty of people with them may never even discover the difference. Most people have no conception of how common these disorders are, because most people with the most common forms are both fertile and lead normal lives. Then there are people who don't have clearly defined chromosomes, and chromosomes who are missing the genes that lead to changes we've come to associate with being one *** or the other. And then there's the fact that sexual development is linked to far more factors than just the X and Y genes.

There's a reason why the Olympics now uses testosterone levels to determine the "***" of competitors. It's not a perfect system by any means, but it attempts to level the playing field by pairing competitors into similar groupings using a system that has a known association with physical strength. Whether or not that's fair for competitions not relying on physical traits with proven, strong correlations to testosterone levels remains to be seen. But at least this sort of system would be more generous to trans females who have undergone reassignment surgery, use hormone blockers, or both.

That said, there will always be fringe cases--women with unusually high testosterone levels, or men with unusually low--because humans don't just fall into two categories. We run the gamut.

As for everything else, if you're trying to exclude a trans man or woman from something that isn't physically tied to their birth ***, you're an *******. At the worst of times, trans men and (particularly) trans women face vastly higher chances of assault than any other group. If they don't want to have to use the men's room, they shouldn't @#$%ing have to. It's not like they're going to whip out whatever they've got below the belt and make you play with it. Of course, we all know that this is Alma's greatest desire fear.

Chances are, they want this to be a conversation topic even less than you do. All they want is the ability to feel safe when going about their daily lives. The fact that anyone else even cares boggles my mind.
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#8 Mar 09 2013 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
If they don't want to have to use the men's room, they shouldn't @#$%ing have to.

Does this apply to everyone?
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#9 Mar 09 2013 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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In before 17 pages of stupidity.
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#10 Mar 09 2013 at 2:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Joph, if you want to continue your life from now on as a woman, I'd be fine with you going to the women's bathroom.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 9:44pm by Aethien
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#11 Mar 09 2013 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe related, maybe not, but I think we should do away with all regulations for football, hockey, and baseball. They're all boring. I think they should be able to pump as much steroids and horse growth hormones as they want. I don't give two fucks about their safety, their futures, or their dreams. They're here to entertain me and I'd be much more entertained by watching Mutant League Football.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 4:01pm by lolgaxe
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#12 Mar 09 2013 at 3:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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They should do a test case with pro cycling, the infrastructure and professional programs for all of that are already there.
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#13 Mar 09 2013 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Joph, if you want to continue your life from now on as a woman, I'd be fine with you going to the women's bathroom.

Awesome, but that didn't answer the question.
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#14 Mar 09 2013 at 3:51 PM Rating: Good
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The "they" in the part of idiggory's post that you quoted refers to trans people, so it kind of does.
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Aethien you take more terrible pictures than a Japanese tourist.
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#15 Mar 09 2013 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
The "they" in the part of idiggory's post that you quoted refers to trans people, so it kind of does.

Does it? Hence my question. Does the phrase "If they don't want to have to use the men's room, they shouldn't @#$%ing have to" apply to everyone or only a special, select group of people?
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#16 Mar 09 2013 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Since you seem to be referring to sports a lot, I'll just address that. I would say someone male who identifies as female probably should not be allowed to compete against females. We're talking about rare fringe cases here though, and I would say we probably have the capability to just deal with it on a case by case basis, and figure out if there is an advantage or not.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 1:26pm by Xsarus


I'll second the case-by-case thing.

I'm fine with leaving it up to the individual sport's leadership/whatever to figure it out. I'm all for letting transgender people choose the *** they associate themselves with. Competitive sports are iffy for me though, mainly to make sure it's fair to the to the other athletes. Just because you underwent gender re-assignment surgery doesn't mean you no longer have a natural competitive advantage because of your native gender. I could see why some might take issue with that.

But if you have a oversight body clear someone to compete, then I got no problems with it.
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#17 Mar 09 2013 at 5:14 PM Rating: Good
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I don't want a man watching me pee. I don't particularly want another woman watching me pee, either. That's probably why the ladies room has stalls with doors that shut and lock. One very large bathroom with 6 or so stalls should be plenty for both the male and female population in any given public place.

Or, do as some of the places here do. Have two bathrooms with locking doors and it's a first come, first serve sort of thing. Just like in a house.

I don't see the issue, personally. I have rarely (I won't say never) been into a ladies room and seen someone buck naked standing outside of the stalls.

This idea, of course, would damage any companies who make their living creating urinals, but oh well. Win some, lose some.

Edited, Mar 9th 2013 5:14pm by Belkira
#18 Mar 09 2013 at 5:19 PM Rating: Good
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Eh, even for the urinals with only a divider in between them, it's not like you'll ever have to worry about someone else seeing you pee. It's just not done to look over to see what the next guy is doing.
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#19 Mar 09 2013 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Eh, even for the urinals with only a divider in between them, it's not like you'll ever have to worry about someone else seeing you pee. It's just not done to look over to see what the next guy is doing.


No, but in my perfect world with "one bathroom to rule them," urinals wouldn't be installed because there would be no need. Men can pee in toilets just as easily inside a stall. If the bathroom is being shared by females, then you would want to utilize every stall to make it so that any person who enters can use it.

And if women were tramping in and out of the bathroom or clustering around the mirrors putting on their makeup, it might give a guy pause to saunter up to the urinal and start peeing.

Then again... it might dissuade females from gathering at the sinks like idiots, too... win/win?


Edited, Mar 9th 2013 5:30pm by Belkira
#20 Mar 09 2013 at 5:31 PM Rating: Default
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#21 Mar 09 2013 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Much as I hate to admit it, I can see where Alma is coming from.

Here's my question: A woman who wants to compete in, say, discus throwing. Wouldn't she want to train her body to the point where she can beat anyone, not just the other women? Is there really a disadvantage? Can women really just biologically never beat men in sports? That seems a little odd to me.
#22 Mar 09 2013 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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To be completely honest, I have trouble believing it would be an issue in competitive sports at all. I'd be frankly shocked if there was a single professional athlete not juicing on whatever undetectable performance enhancers are available on the market, legal or not.

Imo, it should just come down to capability. If a trans woman has an unfair advantage, then she gets prohibited. If she doesn't, she doesn't. I don't mean to infer that this is simple--the procedure for determining this needs to be left to each sport, but I have difficulty imagining trans athletes actually being that far ahead. Particularly if they've actually had gender reassignment surgery. Put them through stress tests relevant to the activity, and plot them next to the bell curve of other players in the field. If they're too far ahead, don't let them compete.

I honestly don't think it's an issue. I can't help but feel that a big reason it's controversial is because people suspect that someone's trying to "infiltrate" the sport, which has been a big part of anti-trans rhetoric for both sides (male/female) since the 50s. It being the area of ***** rights where the least progress has made, not at all helped by the near-complete abandonment of trans peoples by the rest of the ***** community, I really wouldn't be shocked if this was still a continuing fear.

Or maybe I'm just putting my own perceptions onto the present situation. I'm not going to pretend like that couldn't be the case.

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Does this apply to everyone?


As long as their motives don't interfere with the notion of safe space, then yes. If someone, male or female, is going in to make an exhibit out of the men or women in there, they've violated that trust. Using the bathroom associated with the gender you identify with, assuming you have a gender identity, is built into that notion. One restroom to act as a safe space for men, and one for women (who admittedly need it more, due to having less protection and power within our society).

Deliberately entering the room that doesn't correlate to your identity is damaging. To yourself, if you are being barred from the room you wish to use, or fear using it. Or to those who do identify with the correlated gender, for infringing upon their safe space.

The problem as I see it is that we too often correlate gender segregation with sexual segregation. And we shouldn't, because it's been a long time since that made sense with the public perception of society. As a *** man, I'm going to use the men's room. Because I identify as male. Lesbians use women's rooms, because they identify as women. We trust that these groups aren't going to attempt to rape the straight men/women in the rest room (though alma might disagree).

I'm also not going to pretend that it's always clear what the motives are, particularly for trans peoples who have not begin transitioning, or who do not desire to. They may or may not care about trying to pass for their gender to others. If they start peeping, they're no different than any other deviant.

But it's not like they're going to be acting like drag queens. A trans woman in a women's restroom isn't going to be paying any more or less attention to the other women in there than anyone else. The other women are likely paying more to her. But forcing her to use the men's room is surely the worse option.
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#23 Mar 09 2013 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Maybe related, maybe not, but I think we should do away with all regulations for football, hockey, and baseball. They're all boring. I think they should be able to pump as much steroids and horse growth hormones as they want. I don't give two fucks about their safety, their futures, or their dreams. They're here to entertain me and I'd be much more entertained by watching Mutant League Football.


You mean this: http://www.hulu.com/watch/4090
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#24 Mar 09 2013 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
The "they" in the part of idiggory's post that you quoted refers to trans people, so it kind of does.


The question is "who are they?". If I decided to associate myself as a woman, so is everything now ok? Or do I have to change the way I look, dress and act? If the latter, aren't you not discriminating against my gender? Where is the line? People should feel free to associate with whatever gender and dress appropriately, but if there are rules that discriminate on ***, then there needs to be a line. Else, remove the discrimination.
#25 Mar 09 2013 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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There are too much biological differences for that to be fair.


For example: I was watching speed skating today, the women's second longest distance is 3000 meters, it's 5000 meters for the men.
The winner of the women's 3000 meters won with a track record of 3:58:68 (that's minutes, seconds, hundredth of seconds, just to be clear).

Even the worst performing men beat that by a good 5-6 seconds on their way to 5000m. The winner of the women's 3000m is in probably the best funded skating team in the world, has every possible method of training at her fingertips and I am sure she makes full use of everything she can to get better (within the legal means of the sport, obviously) yet she can't even compete by far with the men who aren't even giving it their all for that distance since they still have 2000m to go.


Speed skating tracks are 400 meters in length, therefore a 3000 meter race is 7 and a half laps and a 5000 meter race is 12 and a half laps so it's easy to track times recorded at 3000 meter when the men race a 5000 meter race because they pass the finish line at that point.

Edited, Mar 10th 2013 12:44am by Aethien
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#26 Mar 09 2013 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Aw, alma learned the word "callow."

Granted, it doesn't mean what he thinks it means. He also seems to misunderstand the definition of "threats." But it's cute that he tried.

And no, the point is that these are gender identities. You don't just wake up one morning and decide you want to dress in women's clothing. That's not an identity, it's a lifestyle choice. Cross dressing is far more common among heterosexual men than any other group, combined. Drag queens, trans peoples, and the subset of lesbians who hold the butch identity are still a minority to them.

But in all of these cases, men who like to wear women's clothes, women who like to wear men's clothes, they elect to use the restrooms associated with their gender, not with their lifestyle choices. Yet of these groups people only end up in an uproar over trans persons, because they're somehow considered more deviant than others as their lifestyle choices may actually reflect their gender.

A boy who wants to wear women's clothes is still going to want to use the men's room, because he identifies as male. A boy who identifies as female may or may not want to wear women's clothes is going to want to use the women's room, because she identifies as female.
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