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Sexual Assault or Feminist Wet Blanket?Follow

#1 Oct 04 2012 at 12:51 PM Rating: Good
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The identity of the sailor and nurse in the iconic V-J Day Kiss photo has finally been nailed down, and it isn't what you thought.

Quote:
....historians have finally confirmed that the woman is Greta Zimmer Friedman, a dental nurse at the time, and George Mendonsa, a sailor.


Greta, describing the drunk George planting one on her wrote:
“It wasn’t my choice to be kissed. The guy just came over and grabbed!”

“I did not see him approaching, and before I knew it, I was in this vice grip.”

“You don’t forget this guy grabbing you.”

“That man was very strong. I wasn’t kissing him. He was kissing me.”


The article goes on to discuss that clearly, the photo captures the moment of a sexual assault, an unwanted advance and how this forces us to shift perspective on what has always been viewed as a moment of joy. Except Greta isn't feeling joy, and I am amazed at the comments (this was on a friend's FB) that seem to poo-poo the whole thing as one more example of feminism going too far. I personally can't think I would have been okay with it. I can't think of any man who would be okay to have it done to him by someone stronger than he, who he did not feel he could fight off. Thoughts?
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#2 Oct 04 2012 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Were her lips bruised?
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#3 Oct 04 2012 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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She was asking for it. Wearing that...err....modest attire.

It should have been modester.
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#4 Oct 04 2012 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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Atomicflea wrote:
Except Greta isn't feeling joy,
That's a long time to hold a grudge for a kiss.
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#5 Oct 04 2012 at 1:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Vaguely remember that coming out a while back. Recalling it being described as random and unexpected, not violent or like assault though. Wasn't aware the gal viewed it so negatively I suppose. Thought it was more of a "what the heck was that?" moment I guess.

Dunno.

Edited, Oct 4th 2012 12:11pm by someproteinguy
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#7 Oct 04 2012 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I think he must move with the speed of a striking snake because she clearly hasn't had a chance to resist in anyway at all.
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#8 Oct 04 2012 at 1:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Were her lips bruised?
Win.

lolgaxe wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Except Greta isn't feeling joy,
That's a long time to hold a grudge for a kiss.
You obviously never met Greta. Jokes aside, my first ever kiss was when I was six. My brother's eight-nine year old friend caught me inside the house by myself, held my jaw and put his tongue in my mouth. I still shudder to think of it, and I was a child. I'm obviously over it now and I was of course too young to think of it as a violation in the moment, the feeling of shame mixed with revulsion is unmistakable and not something you forget.
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#9 Oct 04 2012 at 1:20 PM Rating: Good
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I had always assumed it was a sailor kissing some random nurse, not a "couple". I thought that was the point of the photo -- a random act of joy akin to kissing a stranger on New Year's Eve or something, only more so.

I wouldn't recommend anyone do it today but I don't see the point in litigating it against 1940's era mores. It doesn't change my opinion of the photo (such as I have one; it's not as though I own a framed copy).
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#10 Oct 04 2012 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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crazylegz1975 wrote:

Boy you really do hate men.
I really do hate you, but not sure you fit the bill. Point?
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#11 Oct 04 2012 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
I think he must move with the speed of a striking snake because she clearly hasn't had a chance to resist in anyway at all.
She mentions in one of those she was just walking along and he came out from behind her, drunk on Victory and likely cheap 40s era mores and beer.
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#12 Oct 04 2012 at 1:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't see mention in the source articles that Greta held any offense today. The whole "assault" angle seems to be something the blogger came up on her behalf with rather than Greta herself asserting that she felt violated.
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#13 Oct 04 2012 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Atomicflea wrote:
Uglysasquatch wrote:
I think he must move with the speed of a striking snake because she clearly hasn't had a chance to resist in anyway at all.
She mentions in one of those she was just walking along and he came out from behind her, drunk on Victory and likely cheap 40s era mores and beer.
Oh, I'm not disagreeing, I'm just saying the guy was stronger and moved with lighting reflexes.
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#14 Oct 04 2012 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I had always assumed it was a sailor kissing some random nurse, not a "couple". I thought that was the point of the photo -- a random act of joy akin to kissing a stranger on New Year's Eve or something, only more so.
That's what I've always taken away from the image. The complaint doesn't stink of feminism so much as just how annoyingly litigious people are nowadays.
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#15 Oct 04 2012 at 1:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I will say that one spot where I was mistaken is that I assumed it was a sailor kissing a military nurse; a shared experience between people who had both been through the war. Sounds as though it was a civilian nurse from the articles.
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#16 Oct 04 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Dude just fought off the Japanese navy; she should have been on her knees in appreciation.
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#17 Oct 04 2012 at 1:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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I bet he didn't let her go because her breath was so minty fresh.
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#18 Oct 04 2012 at 2:41 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I had always assumed it was a sailor kissing some random nurse, not a "couple". I thought that was the point of the photo -- a random act of joy akin to kissing a stranger on New Year's Eve or something, only more so.

Insert "willing" into that sentence and I would concur.

Quote:
I wouldn't recommend anyone do it today but I don't see the point in litigating it against 1940's era mores. It doesn't change my opinion of the photo (such as I have one; it's not as though I own a framed copy).
I look at it the same way I would an episode of Mad Men where someone does something ****** up-just because it was okay in the day doesn't mean I look at it and don't think it isn't ****** up.
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#19 Oct 04 2012 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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I watched the CBS video. Greta doesn't seem disturbed, she doesn't act as though it was fucked up, she doesn't say "He grabbed me" in any sort of violent context and she's been willing to meet up with him a couple times now for these human interest stories. While not all the quotes came from the video, I get the feeling that taken in context they'd be the same as the interview. I'd rather wait for her to proclaim how she was mistreated before getting indignant on her behalf.

Here's her Library of Congress interview from which the "I was just grabbed" remark comes from.
Quote:
That really confirmed what the people had said in the office. Suddenly, I was grabbed by a sailor. It wasn't that much of a kiss. It was more of a jubilant act that he didn't have to go back. I found out later he was so happy that he didn't have to go back to the Pacific where they had already been through the war. The reason he grabbed somebody dressed like a nurse, that he felt so very grateful to the nurses who took care of the wounded. I had to go back to the office, and I told my bosses what I had seen.
[...]
I felt that he was very strong. He was just holding me tight. I'm not sure about the kiss... it was just somebody celebrating. It wasn't a romantic event. It was just an event of 'thank god the war is over' . . . it was right in front of the sign.
[...]
LIFE Magazine. And we sort of just didn't want to reenact the kiss. First of all, his wife was there. (Mr. Mendonsa's wife) [...] But I didn't know that then. It wasn't my choice to be kissed... (in 1945). The guy just came over and grabbed! (in 1980 for the reenactment of the kiss) I told him I didn't want to redo that pose! We have the picture here, and it is kind of a reenactment of the pose and the sign on Time's Square says, 'It had to be you!'

She's talking about how it would be uncomfortable to recreate the moment but not because she was assaulted or violated. She took it as a spontaneous act of joy and thought nothing else of it for years and years.
Quote:
Patricia Redmond: What did you do the rest of the day, when you were off and celebrating?...
Greta Friedman: I went home!
Patricia Redmond: Did you think about "the kiss"...
Greta Friedman: Not until years later when I saw the picture. I said 'Wait a minute... that's me!'

Mountains out of molehills.



Edited, Oct 4th 2012 5:20pm by Jophiel
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#20 Oct 04 2012 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I watched the CBS video...


That's an awful verbose variation of "Feminist Wet Blanket"
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#21 Oct 04 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Good
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Forgive my musings here, something that came to me after rereading the article. On the topic of fighting "rape culture" I'm not so sure it's something that's going to really succeed.

Why would you say such a thing?

Well, I think it's pretty hard-wired into the male mind.

What? That's sick. Obviously men should be able to control themselves, I'm sure they can.

I agree, and I would have whole-heartedly agreed with the statement a few years back, but I don't think self-control is the issue we should be looking at.

Humor me for a second...

I think the ability to ignore the pain and suffering of another is just part of who we are. Not only in the 'must kill to defend ourselves' mentality of nature, but also as part of ensuring reproduction.

Huh? You're ****** up...

Probably, but it's not like what you're thinking. Smiley: tongue

Consider this: have you ever watched someone go through a particularly painful childbirth? How did that make you feel? For myself it was horrifying. Knowing that a moment of passion could nearly cost another their life. Especially someone you care deeply about. Now imagine you lived in an era before things like drugs, c-sections, etc. where the process was often much more painful, and the risk of death from complications was much higher.

For myself, even today it was hard enough to get back into the swing of things afterwards so to speak. I mean, goodness gracious that was traumatic. Makes other suffering seem minor in comparison. Frankly if I wouldn't have been able to put the wife's pain out of my mind, we would have never had more than a single child, and I probably would have written off *** altogether. Not worth the risk, even with all those hormones pushing me.

Along those lines, why was it customary for men not to be present in the delivery room for many years?

Anyway, yes, icky stuff is icky. Not meaning to condone assault, make excuses, whatever, etc, just sharing a random perspective. Hopefully with the comparative ease of modern life, men can evolve away from that survival tactic picked up years ago. It'll take time though, I'd wager.

Anywho, it's probably all been said before, but it's something I didn't appreciate until more recently.

Random thoughts are done, and I'm headed home for the night.

Tootles.
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#22 Oct 04 2012 at 5:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
That's an awful verbose variation of "Feminist Wet Blanket"

I don't know that it's feminism causing the complaints and my opposition to the hub-bub doesn't have anything to do with feminism. I do feel the complaints are unwarranted.
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#23 Oct 04 2012 at 6:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Atomicflea wrote:

The article goes on to discuss that clearly, the photo captures the moment of a sexual assault, an unwanted advance and how this forces us to shift perspective on what has always been viewed as a moment of joy. Except Greta isn't feeling joy, and I am amazed at the comments (this was on a friend's FB) that seem to poo-poo the whole thing as one more example of feminism going too far. I personally can't think I would have been okay with it. I can't think of any man who would be okay to have it done to him by someone stronger than he, who he did not feel he could fight off. Thoughts?
Excepting the context I could give it 'assault'. The guy has his arm wrapped around her neck pretty good. To call it sexual assault you'd really have to define a kiss as being sexual. There's really nothing else steamy going on in the photo.
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#24 Oct 04 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe he had recently returned from Europe and had acquired their habit of kissing as a greeting?

I agree that it in from appearances it seems to be more of a euphoric, communal celebration type action than a sexual one...like those cartoony, non-tongued "mmWAH" kisses someone does in a movie when they are excited, and grabs the nearest person to smack them on the lips. In the context as we know, it seems less assaultive than say, an ***-grab.

However, I am open to the prospect that it could indeed be assault - I couldn't mount an argument against that. I would, however, argue that it's misdemeanor level rather than felonious.

It also made me think wonder: how okay is it to enjoy the photo if it really was a harmful assault? As a journalistic photo, it would become upsetting. But as a work of art, the pure image would be open to the interpretation of the observer, like Mona Lisa's smile. How do we know she wasn't smiling about something sinister? So as a work of art, it could remain beautiful despite real-life circumstances. (And I suspect the inability to handle this cognitive dissonance is what inspires the trogoldytic reaction to Flea's argument. "You can't convince me this photo is bad because I already believed it was awesome!")

--

Freshman level psych analysis: maybe Flea's negative reaction is partially caused by that traumatic childhood kiss. You say you are long over it, but these things can stick with us in ways that our conscious mind can't overcome. (I'm not really trying to psycho-analyze you, I'm just needling).
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#25 Oct 04 2012 at 7:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
Dude just fought off the Japanese navy; she should have been on her knees in appreciation.



I find this potentially way more offensive than the kiss. I'm guessing you probably didn't mean it the way I took it.

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#26 Oct 05 2012 at 3:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Dude just fought off the Japanese navy; she should have been on her knees in appreciation.


I find this potentially way more offensive than the kiss. I'm guessing you probably didn't mean it the way I took it.


I guess I'm less charitable, because I'm pretty sure he did.
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#27 Oct 05 2012 at 5:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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She should probably take it as loltrolling.
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#28 Oct 05 2012 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
There's really nothing else steamy going on in the photo.
By today's standards.
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#29 Oct 05 2012 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
Debalic wrote:
Dude just fought off the Japanese navy; she should have been on her knees in appreciation.

I find this potentially way more offensive than the kiss. I'm guessing you probably didn't mean it the way I took it.

What Joph said. This thread wasn't depraved and antagonistic enough.
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#30 Oct 05 2012 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Dude just fought off the Japanese navy; she should have been on her knees in appreciation.

Generally speaking, I'm more appreciative of nurses than sailors.
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#31 Oct 05 2012 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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Who the fuck rated Samira down?

I will fuck your eyes out.

There are at least two of you. C'mon, fess up. Then assume the position, you cowardly pieces of ****.
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#32 Oct 05 2012 at 9:11 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Who the fuck rated Samira down?

I will fuck your eyes out.

There are at least two of you. C'mon, fess up. Then assume the position, you cowardly pieces of sh*t.

lol @ the forum bodyguard
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#33 Oct 05 2012 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Who the fuck rated Samira down?

I will fuck your eyes out.

There are at least two of you. C'mon, fess up. Then assume the position, you cowardly pieces of sh*t.

lol @ the forum bodyguard


****, you got me. Caught red handed in a moment of perfect sincerity, that most embarassing of states.

Hey though can I just say that I've always respected the way you stepped up and took care of your sister that's some heartwarming **** dude cmere and give me a hug. The first sentence was sarcasm by the way but I'm being legit here mostly I mean the hug thing isn't really serious but the rest is give yourself a pat on the back dude.
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#34 Oct 05 2012 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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#35 Oct 05 2012 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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Nobody protects me when I get downrated. Smiley: glare
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#36 Oct 05 2012 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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It's because you have no boobs, sorry.
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#37 Oct 05 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's because you have no boobs, sorry.

Hey, I got downrated too. And there's a much evidence of me having boobs as there is of Samira.

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#38 Oct 05 2012 at 8:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mine are perkier.
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#39 Oct 05 2012 at 9:42 PM Rating: Good
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We'll need photographic evidence.

With some whipped cream, maybe chocolate, various other things... for uh... reference.

Edited, Oct 5th 2012 11:43pm by TirithRR
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#40 Oct 05 2012 at 11:39 PM Rating: Good
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It's possible someone downrated you because they wasted 10 minutes of their life trying to make the cat spin the opposite direction, and then back again, as I have done on several occasions.
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#41 Oct 06 2012 at 5:57 AM Rating: Good
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trickybeck wrote:

It's possible someone downrated you because they wasted 10 minutes of their life trying to make the cat spin the opposite direction, and then back again, as I have done on several occasions.

Use the Force, Luke.
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#42 Oct 06 2012 at 6:02 AM Rating: Good
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Focus on the one frame as the two legs cross each other legs cross the body (it's the cat, not the dancer). Once you identify that frame you can make the image rotate either direction and even 'bounce' back and forth between the two directions.

Edited, Oct 6th 2012 8:03am by TirithRR
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#44 Oct 06 2012 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not that Flea is a man hater, but gosh. Wouldn't that just boggle the mind, indeed.

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#45 Oct 06 2012 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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#46 Oct 06 2012 at 10:44 AM Rating: Default
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didn't this take place before sexual assault existed? In which case how can you call it sexual assault.
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#47 Oct 06 2012 at 11:45 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
didn't this take place before sexual assault existed? In which case how can you call it sexual assault.

Idiot.
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#48 Oct 06 2012 at 11:48 AM Rating: Decent
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No, no, he has a point; sexual assault was invented in the 60s by Women's Lib.
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#49 Oct 06 2012 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
No, no, he has a point; sexual assault was invented recognized in the 60s by Women's Lib.


FTFY
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#50 Oct 06 2012 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Smiley: rolleyes
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#51 Oct 06 2012 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Debalic wrote:
Smiley: rolleyes

Roll your eyes all you want. The behavior has existed for millenia. That it was only recognized as not appropriate in the 1960s doesn't mean it wasn't appropriate before.
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