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#52 Apr 19 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.

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That's some serious "glass is half full" action right there.
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#53 Apr 19 2012 at 3:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Demea wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.

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I don't see how that is funny. Tuition + interest > Tuition without interest.

If student loans were interest free it would be a different issue.
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#54 Apr 19 2012 at 3:53 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


You make a fair point, but it's a **** of a lot better than not being able to go to college at all.
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#55 Apr 19 2012 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
I don't see how that is funny. Tuition + interest > Tuition without interest.
Why should a random stranger lend you money for no reason at all?
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#56 Apr 19 2012 at 4:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
You make a fair point, but it's a **** of a lot better than not being able to go to college at all.


My thoughts too.
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#57 Apr 19 2012 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Government student loans in the US aren't even that bad in terms of interest. Much of it is deferred and then dropped all together as long as you make payments on time after graduating. I have two loans, one through Department of Education and the other through UAS. I have not felt ripped off or taken advantage of by either. What I have paid in interest seems negligible considering I was able to get a well paying job and earn considerably more money with my degree than without.

Sure, maybe it doesn't work out for everyone, and every degree/course of study. But that's something you have to weigh the cost/benefits of when you first decide to get the loans.
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#58 Apr 19 2012 at 4:49 PM Rating: Good
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I think that the degree/school/course of study plays into it as well. I probably paid too much for my undergrad degree in English. I'm getting an absolute bargain for my master's degree in IT. Last year's cohort of 25 people all landed jobs as CIOs, big data gurus, got promoted, or started up their own companies within six months of graduating.
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#59 Apr 19 2012 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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TirithRR wrote:
Government student loans in the US aren't even that bad in terms of interest.


Unfortunately, our interest rates are pretty terrible. Prime +2.5% - can get used car loans with better rates. I guess I am just sore because I paid 10K in interest last year.

TirithRR wrote:

Sure, maybe it doesn't work out for everyone, and every degree/course of study. But that's something you have to weigh the cost/benefits of when you first decide to get the loans.


Also, it is a bit much to punish someone for not being able to predict job trends 5 years out as a teenager.

Honestly, I would have absolutely no problem with businesses asking for unrelated credentials if higher education was barrier free. People are free to disagree, but I just don't see how it is fair to assume that folks who don't have a degree are unintelligent/unmotivated when they just might not want to go 27K into debt for an undergrad degree.

PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


You make a fair point, but it's a **** of a lot better than not being able to go to college at all.


Perhaps, not for myself. I would be financially a lot better off right now if I had never gone to college. Then again I am exceedingly lucky.


Edited, Apr 19th 2012 4:29pm by Olorinus
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#60 Apr 19 2012 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Paid 10k in interest, in a year? While I don't know your original loan amount or current balance (and I'm not going to hazard a guess or pry further into that type of personal information) I will say that my current total interest paid on my loans is considerably less than that.

Dept of Education rate: 2.36%
UAS rate: 5%

I graduated with just over 26k in student loan debt. While I don't know what the average debt of a US student coming out of a 4 year public university program is, mine seemed relatively low compared to some other people I had met.

I am curious if your loans are through a government program or a private loan organization though.
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#61 Apr 19 2012 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


You make a fair point, but it's a **** of a lot better than not being able to go to college at all.


Perhaps, not for myself. I would be financially a lot better off right now if I had never gone to college. Then again I am exceedingly lucky.


So your issue isn't really with interest on student loans, but with the value of a degree compared to the cost.
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#62 Apr 19 2012 at 7:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


Most things work this way.
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#63 Apr 20 2012 at 7:23 AM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Demea wrote:
If you couldn't afford to finish school, there were always tuition assistance programs, scholarships, and as a last resort, student loans.


yeah I have tens of thousands in student loans. I stopped when I realized the probable increase in my wages from the degree wasn't going to pay off my loans in a reasonable amount of time (especially with getting knocked into a higher tax bracket). I made the right choice, since I wouldn't have the sweet job I have now if I had wasted more time at school (due to the economic downturn changing the job market) and lo and behold, I do my job just as well as my colleagues with bach. and masters degrees.

Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.

Uglysasquatch wrote:

Also, I'm not buying your excuse of not being able to afford getting a degree in Canada. The cost is anything but prohibitive and almost any basic degree can be done part-time, making it even more affordable. If any degree is the requirement, then any degree will do to go to school for.


Yeah, I don't know where you live in Canada but in this province the cost of living is prohibitively high - and during the time I was going to school tuition fees more than doubled, rent skyrocketed (thanks olympics for the real estate bubble!), and minimum wage was flatlined for 10 years.

As for being able to do a degree part-time... yeah, good luck paying for tuition (cause you can't get any loans if you are working full time or going to school part-time instead of full time), paying exorbitant rent, and making 8 bucks an hour in a city where a living wage would be more like 16. Is it possible to live in a dingy hole with 10 other people, work full time and somehow manage to keep your sanity while completing a degree part-time over 10 years? Sure. Is it realistic to expect the average joe to do so? Not really.

Edited, Apr 19th 2012 1:37pm by Olorinus

So which is it; In your bubble do you need a college education to make a livable wage or not?
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#64 Apr 20 2012 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Perhaps, not for myself. I would be financially a lot better off right now if I had never gone to college.
Or you'd be flipping burgers, since you wouldn't have delayed yourself from entering the job market and never gotten your "lucky" break.
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#65 Apr 20 2012 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


Most things work this way.


A thought most elegantly articulated in Vimes' boots theory of economics.
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#66 Apr 20 2012 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


Most things work this way.


A thought most elegantly articulated in Vimes' boots theory of economics.


Quite.
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#67 Apr 20 2012 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Student loans are bogus to begin with - it is essentially a way of making people who are poor pay higher tuition than people who are rich. It doesn't make an inch of sense.


You make a fair point, but it's a **** of a lot better than not being able to go to college at all.


Perhaps, not for myself. I would be financially a lot better off right now if I had never gone to college. Then again I am exceedingly lucky.


So your issue isn't really with interest on student loans, but with the value of a degree compared to the cost.


Wow, for once, I almost completely agree with you. Though on principle, making people who have less money pay more bothers me, if the increase in pay one could expect from finishing the degree was enough, the interest wouldn't matter as much to me, that's correct.

lolgaxe wrote:
Olorinus wrote:
Perhaps, not for myself. I would be financially a lot better off right now if I had never gone to college.
Or you'd be flipping burgers, since you wouldn't have delayed yourself from entering the job market and never gotten your "lucky" break.


I was in the job market when I got my break - working at a coffee shop making sandwiches and cinnamon buns

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 9:27am by Olorinus
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.

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#68 Apr 20 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I love how quickly a thread about appearance discrimination devolved into classist ranting.
#69 Apr 20 2012 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
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#70 Apr 20 2012 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
I can't speak for everyone obviously, but I know for me, even going into being a teacher (a profession which is severely underpaid in comparison to how much it costs to get the qualifications), the cost of my degrees is going to be well worth it. Before I went back to school to finish my degree, I was working at a hotel, full time as a front desk clerk. Making $8.50 an hour, at 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, I would have made $17,680 if I had worked an entire tax year. That's gross btw, not net, and Oregon has horrendous income tax compared to most states because we have no sales tax. First year teachers, at a minimum, make about 30k a year. That's almost double what I was making before. Considering the changes Pres. Obama has made to student loan repayment, I consider that increase in pay to be well worth the cost of the degrees. I will only have to pay those loans off for 10 years, and only have to pay as much as I can afford based on my wage. I'm also seriously considering doing a program which gives me a pretty good chunk of loan forgiveness if I teach at an inner city school for 5 years. So, we'll see. Could be even more cost effective.

Sorry to break it to you dude, but unless you were going after a degree with no particular career goal in mind, I think your calculations were way off.
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#71 Apr 20 2012 at 7:53 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus wrote:
Wow, for once, I almost completely agree with you. Though on principle, making people who have less money pay more bothers me...


I'm curious what principle you're acting on here. It's not having less money that makes you have to pay more, but choosing to borrow money that does. And while we can certainly argue that those who have less money are more likely to have to borrow it, the same rules apply to anyone who takes out a student loan (or any kind of loan for that matter). The interest on the loan exists to cover for the risk that some of those who borrow money wont pay it back. No one would loan money to a stranger if all they got in return was their money back at some point down the line, maybe.

It's the trade off for having the ability to obtain something you could not otherwise afford. This is no different if we are talking about taking out a loan to buy a car, or a house, or an appliance. It's not like student loans are special in some way. Well, actually, they are. They usually have much lower interest rates and much lower criteria. They're more or less a steal of a deal, so it's a bit strange to complain about the interest on them compared to anything else you might take out a loan to get.

Quote:
... if the increase in pay one could expect from finishing the degree was enough, the interest wouldn't matter as much to me, that's correct.


Yup. And that's the choice you make (or should make) when you first decide to borrow the money. In life, there are no guarantees though. You take a risk when you borrow that money that you may not earn enough after graduating to make up the difference. The lender takes a risk when lending you that money that you may not be able to pay him back. Everything we do has a risk of going poorly, but it's kind of silly to sit around insisting that it's somehow unfair that those risks exist. Rather, we should look at those things and make the best choices we can.


It won't always work out perfectly for everyone, but IMO the alternative is worse.
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#72 Apr 21 2012 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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The rule of thumb I've heard for student loans is that the total amount you take out over the course of your schooling should never be more than your expected entry level first year's gross pay in your field. So if your chosen career will pay you around $40,000 in your first year (depending on where you live, other skills you have, etc etc), you can safely borrow up to 40K to pay for all your schooling.

The problem is that private schools charge tuition of ~40K a year at some places (Harvard is 60K a year), and while they'll often lop off 30K for a poor student via grants and scholarships, that's still $10,000 for tuition alone, not counting any living expenses or books. The brand name of the school better be **** good, and your choice of career better be worth it, to make up for the larger cost of the loans you have to bear.

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#73 Apr 21 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Discriminating against people based on how they look is unfair.

It's really, really ugly.
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#74 Apr 21 2012 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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#75 Apr 23 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
The problem is that private schools charge tuition of ~40K a year at some places (Harvard is 60K a year), and while they'll often lop off 30K for a poor student via grants and scholarships, that's still $10,000 for tuition alone, not counting any living expenses or books. The brand name of the school better be **** good, and your choice of career better be worth it, to make up for the larger cost of the loans you have to bear.


The problem is that school tuition has gotten ridiculous. And unfortunately, part of that problem is the easy availability of student loans, even for ridiculous amounts. More students need to learn that rule of thumb you pointed out earlier. I think far too many think that the loan amount just doesn't matter, and the schools take advantage of this by spending tons of money on things that don't affect the quality of the education much, but will attract young students, often with little or not money sense, and with what appears to them to be an unlimited credit card in the form of those loans.

I'm not sure what the answer is there, but buyer beware is a good approach. What a lot of people don't realize is that unless you're going to try to get into some top law or business firm (and let's face it, 99.99% of students aren't or wont), where you go to school pretty much matters zero to your future job prospects. The overwhelming majority of employers don't care or even look at where you went to school. They look to see if you have a degree, and whether that degree applies to the job you're applying for. And frankly, they look at other things even more. The degree may get your foot in the door in terms of the application process, but that's about it. Pretty much no one cares what grades you got, or what school you attended.


So even though it seems like free money with those loans, students should go the cheapest route possible. Attend community college and get an associates first. Then transfer to a 4 year university (one local to you preferably). Do some math on the costs. Sometimes it's less expensive to work part time and take an extra year or two getting your degree, but reducing the total amount of your loans. Sometimes, depending on how the school costs are figured, it's less expensive to just take bigger loans and plow through the course load as quickly as possible.

IMO, this is a time in people's lives when they've got a lot of options and a lot of time. Take advantage of that. But don't do so why blowing massive amounts of money on student loans that are going to crush you later. I've known people who took 10 years getting their degree. But they did it by working part time and taking just 2 or 3 classes a semester. When they were done, they had little or no student loans to pay off and frankly, they were more employable when they got that degree than if they'd rolled right through, gotten out by 22-23 years old, and had no clue what to do with the degree they just got.

There's lots of approaches. I just think that kids should not feel so pressured to go 4yr or bust when it comes to education. Take your time. Enjoy yourself. And it's a **** of a lot easier to do that if you *don't* fall into the student loan trap.
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#76 Apr 23 2012 at 6:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus wrote:
Demea wrote:
If you couldn't afford to finish school, there were always tuition assistance programs, scholarships, and as a last resort, student loans.


yeah I have tens of thousands in student loans. I stopped when I realized the probable increase in my wages from the degree wasn't going to pay off my loans in a reasonable amount of time (especially with getting knocked into a higher tax bracket). I made the right choice, since I wouldn't have the sweet job I have now if I had wasted more time at school (due to the economic downturn changing the job market) and lo and behold, I do my job just as well as my colleagues with bach. and masters degrees.
Those loans are a sunk cost and shouldn't have factored into your decision to continue, anyway.
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