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#702 Apr 19 2012 at 7:04 AM Rating: Good
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That's just obvious.
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#703 Apr 20 2012 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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Very interesting day in court for Zimmerman today.

Judge grants $150,000 bond to Zimmerman; Zimmerman apologizes to Martin family while on the stand.

Also, a picture of Zimmerman's head from the night of the incident.

What shocked me most is how awful the investigator was on the stand. How are you going to sit up there and say, under oath, that you have no idea who started the fight? That's kinda one of the critical points. And he "didn't expect to testify today." Really? Unless the prosecution is still holding on to some powerful evidence, I won't be surprised if Zimmerman is acquitted at this rate. Of course, I'm pretty sure the prosecution had time to gather up all facts and evidence before considering 2nd degree murder, but we'll see.
#704 Apr 20 2012 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Arcari wrote:
What shocked me most is how awful the investigator was on the stand. How are you going to sit up there and say, under oath, that you have no idea who started the fight? That's kinda one of the critical points.


How could (s)he have any idea who started the fight? There weren't any witness to the start of the fight, or the end of the fight, for that matter, only the middle of the fight. He couldn't say who started the fight because it would either be conjecture, which is inadmissable, or perjury, which is kind of illegal.

Arcari wrote:
Of course, I'm pretty sure the prosecution had time to gather up all facts and evidence before considering 2nd degree murder, but we'll see.


I have a feeling the 2nd degree murcher charge was a political/power play on two levels. First, a 2nd degree murder charge was aloe-vera on the emotional sunburn this case had caused and it gave the prosecutor a better chance of trying this cause in a real court instead of the kangaroo court of public opinion. Secondly, I wouldn't at all be surprised if she was hoping to frighten him with such a serious charge and end up reaching a plea deal for manslaughter or something even less severe, like negligent homicide.
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#705 Apr 20 2012 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I have a feeling the 2nd degree murcher charge was a political/power play on two levels. First, a 2nd degree murder charge was aloe-vera on the emotional sunburn this case had caused and it gave the prosecutor a better chance of trying this cause in a real court instead of the kangaroo court of public opinion.


This, I think, but I also think that it's possible that the underlying motive for the prosecution was to charge him with a serious enough crime such that the lack of evidence would make for a relatively controversy free acquittal. Placate the masses with the dog and pony show while posing no real risk to the defendant.

I got to thinking about this last night and honestly, unless some evidence surfaces that is compelling enough to remove all doubt in the self-defense claim, I really do hope Zimmerman doesn't end up with a prison term, but if he does go free, I think the court should impose restrictions such that a) he is never allowed to own, possess, or use a firearm (without supervision) again and b) he is banned from participating in any "neighborhood watch" type activities ever again. Even if this particular incident was self-defense, I think there's enough info available to determine without a doubt that Zimmerman is a bit of a vigilante with a hero complex, and steps should be taken to ensure he is never in a position to (even in self-defense) commit such an act again.
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#706 Apr 20 2012 at 12:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Arcari wrote:
What shocked me most is how awful the investigator was on the stand. How are you going to sit up there and say, under oath, that you have no idea who started the fight?
That's the problem with fair trials. Sometimes the evidence doesn't say what arm chair attorneys think it says. They should just skip the trial and evidence and all the legal crap and just execute him already, right?
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#707 Apr 20 2012 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I have a feeling the 2nd degree murcher charge was a political/power play on two levels. First, a 2nd degree murder charge was aloe-vera on the emotional sunburn this case had caused and it gave the prosecutor a better chance of trying this cause in a real court instead of the kangaroo court of public opinion.


This, I think, but I also think that it's possible that the underlying motive for the prosecution was to charge him with a serious enough crime such that the lack of evidence would make for a relatively controversy free acquittal. Placate the masses with the dog and pony show while posing no real risk to the defendant.


I considered this possibility as well, but I would hope that the special prosecutor takes her oath of office seriously enough that she wouldn't stage what amounts to a mock trial just to pander to the public.

I also agree that Zimmerman should not be allowed to own a gun or participate in neighborhood watch anymore, but how do you abrogate hsi 2nd Amendment rights without him being a convicted felon? I could totally see this ending with a plea deal where Zimmerman pleads to the most minor felony they can apply to the case and in exchange he gets a sentence that is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Something like a year of probation and community service. Although the danger in that is that it may be obvious enough that the talking heads screaming for Zimmerman's lynching realize they are being pandered to.
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#708 Apr 20 2012 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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I don't really see why there isn't a manslaughter charge in there.
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#709 Apr 20 2012 at 1:44 PM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
I don't really see why there isn't a manslaughter charge in there.
Because manslaughter is a much lesser charge than Second Degree Murder?

Not that it matters, he can still plea or be found guilty of manslaughter.
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#710 Apr 20 2012 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
I don't really see why there isn't a manslaughter charge in there.


Not all states allow you to levy more than one charge for the same crime. In some states, if you want to convict someone for killing another person, you have to decide whether negligent homicide, manslaughter, 2nd degree murder, or capital murder fits the charge best. In other stats you can charge them with all four and let the jury decide. I don't know what the law is in Florida, but I'm guessing it works the former way since the special prosecutor went with 2nd degree murder.

She can always plea him down or amend the charges later, though. The only charge that she would have had to bring from the beginning or be precluded from charging him with is capital murder, because that requires a grand jury indictment in Florida.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 2:56pm by Bigdaddyjug
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#711 Apr 20 2012 at 3:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
This, I think, but I also think that it's possible that the underlying motive for the prosecution was to charge him with a serious enough crime such that the lack of evidence would make for a relatively controversy free acquittal. Placate the masses with the dog and pony show while posing no real risk to the defendant.


I considered this possibility as well, but I would hope that the special prosecutor takes her oath of office seriously enough that she wouldn't stage what amounts to a mock trial just to pander to the public.


It's hard to say really. I'm holding out the possibility that there is some evidence we're unaware of which makes a case against Zimmerman's self defense claim. At the very least, she isn't making the same mistake that Nifong made. She's leaving her own facts scanty (the affidavit was as minimal as it could be), and allowing the public to do the spreading of unproven/untrue stuff. That avoids the potential of disbarment and lawsuit against her (maybe) if things go badly for her, but I'm still of the opinion that if she doesn't have that evidence, she should not have brought trial. Better to make that case to the public from day one than allow them to continue to believe in something that isn't going to happen, only to dash those hopes later.


While I'd love to think that there's some way to get a controversy free acquittal, a part of me believes that's just pure wishful thinking. History shows us that the longer these things go on, the stronger the emotions get and the more angry people become when they don't ultimately get their way.

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I also agree that Zimmerman should not be allowed to own a gun or participate in neighborhood watch anymore, but how do you abrogate hsi 2nd Amendment rights without him being a convicted felon?


You can't. If he's found not guilty, he's not guilty. We can't have a legal system that punishes people who are found not guilty anyway because we think they should be.


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I could totally see this ending with a plea deal where Zimmerman pleads to the most minor felony they can apply to the case and in exchange he gets a sentence that is nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Something like a year of probation and community service. Although the danger in that is that it may be obvious enough that the talking heads screaming for Zimmerman's lynching realize they are being pandered to.


Yeah. I don't think that will work. And frankly, I don't see it happening (or even being possible). Charges that are brought aren't just arbitrary in order to make a deal. I don't see any way to plea what is clearly at least manslaughter (he deliberately pulled that trigger and shot someone), down to anything that Zimmerman would be willing to take. His best shot is exactly what he's doing: Self defense. And unless there's that unknown evidence floating around out there, he's got an incredibly strong case. There is every possibility that this will not even get to a jury (judge could grant motion to dismiss right off the bat).
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#712 Apr 20 2012 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I just thought of something else. The SYG law also protects Zimmerman from civil prosecution. Does he have to be found not guilty in a criminal trial for that protection to kick in, or does he have it if prosecutors just decide there isn't enough evidence to convict him? I know this is really crazy talk now, but what if the special prosecutor charged him just so he could be found innocent and get the civil prosecution protection for Zimmerman?

I really need a tinfoil hat on that note, don't I?

Edit: How do you do the tinfoil hat smiley? It's not on the extended list of smileys.

Edited, Apr 20th 2012 4:40pm by Bigdaddyjug
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#713 Apr 20 2012 at 3:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just thought of something else. The SYG law also protects Zimmerman from civil prosecution. Does he have to be found not guilty in a criminal trial for that protection to kick in, or does he have it if prosecutors just decide there isn't enough evidence to convict him? I know this is really crazy talk now, but what if the special prosecutor charged him just so he could be found innocent and get the civil prosecution protection for Zimmerman?

I really need a tinfoil hat on that note, don't I?

Edit: How do you do the tinfoil hat smiley? It's not on the extended list of smileys.

[ :tinfoilhat: ], iirc.
Smiley: tinfoilhat Yep.
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#714 Apr 20 2012 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Poldaran wrote:
Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just thought of something else. The SYG law also protects Zimmerman from civil prosecution. Does he have to be found not guilty in a criminal trial for that protection to kick in, or does he have it if prosecutors just decide there isn't enough evidence to convict him? I know this is really crazy talk now, but what if the special prosecutor charged him just so he could be found innocent and get the civil prosecution protection for Zimmerman?

I really need a tinfoil hat on that note, don't I?

Edit: How do you do the tinfoil hat smiley? It's not on the extended list of smileys.

[ :tinfoilhat: ], iirc.
Smiley: tinfoilhat Yep.


Ahhh...there we go. I was trying [:tinfoil:] and wasn't putting the hat in there.
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#715 Apr 20 2012 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Bigdaddyjug wrote:
I just thought of something else. The SYG law also protects Zimmerman from civil prosecution. Does he have to be found not guilty in a criminal trial for that protection to kick in, or does he have it if prosecutors just decide there isn't enough evidence to convict him? I know this is really crazy talk now, but what if the special prosecutor charged him just so he could be found innocent and get the civil prosecution protection for Zimmerman?


I think that if someone admits to killing someone else, but claims self defense, the immunity from civil action stands until/unless his claim is proven false. Another way of looking at it (which requires no tinfoil hat), is that the only way for any civil action to happen against Zimmerman, the prosecution must charge him and convict him. So you could also argue that she's taking the only action which can allow for a civil claim (against Zimmerman at least).

I'm not sure how a plea might fit in here in terms of that. Again though, I don't think a plea (bargain) is possible in this case. Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. You kinda *cant* charge him with anything less than manslaughter. I really do see the decision by the prosecutor as more of a "if we can't get past the self defense claim, we lose no matter what the charge, but if we can we may as well go for the strongest charge we can get". And to be honest, second degree murder actually fits the facts better. He didn't just put Martin into a situation he knew might result in the loss of his life, but without intending for him to die (manslaughter). He deliberately used a lethal weapon on Martin. The gun didn't accidentally go off. He didn't accidentally hit Martin. He fired it with the intent to inflict that force against Martin. That, absent ruling of self defense, is second degree murder. Or at least sufficiently so to make an attempt for that charge.


I'll point out also that if Zimmerman's claim of self defense is not upheld (either by judge acting on a motion to dismiss, or a jury finding him not guilty by reason of self defense), he can still be subject to civil suit. So if the jury somehow finds that it wasn't self defense but also wasn't second degree murder (you never know with juries), Zimmerman could be found not guilty, but still be subject to civil action.
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#716 Apr 21 2012 at 9:45 PM Rating: Default
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my question is how can you find a fair and unbiased jury? There was a period of time where the story was looped on Network news. I find it hard to imagine that you could find 12 people that haven't already made up their mind. This trial is going to be a joke. He should have been held and charged right away if they were going to charge him. Hung jury, or acquittal, I just do not think it is possible to get any other outcome.
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#717 Apr 21 2012 at 10:58 PM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
my question is how can you find a fair and unbiased jury? There was a period of time where the story was looped on Network news. I find it hard to imagine that you could find 12 people that haven't already made up their mind. This trial is going to be a joke. He should have been held and charged right away if they were going to charge him. Hung jury, or acquittal, I just do not think it is possible to get any other outcome.


I thought this was the reason that the judge decided this would be a bench trial. Is that not accurate any longer?
#718 Apr 22 2012 at 1:13 AM Rating: Good
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While I'd love to think that there's some way to get a controversy free acquittal, a part of me believes that's just pure wishful thinking.
Glad to see that you haven't already made up your mind before the jury has.
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#719 Apr 22 2012 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Belkira wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
my question is how can you find a fair and unbiased jury? There was a period of time where the story was looped on Network news. I find it hard to imagine that you could find 12 people that haven't already made up their mind. This trial is going to be a joke. He should have been held and charged right away if they were going to charge him. Hung jury, or acquittal, I just do not think it is possible to get any other outcome.


I thought this was the reason that the judge decided this would be a bench trial. Is that not accurate any longer?


That was part of it, yes. Additionally, a grand jury is only required if it's Murder 1, and they knew they didn't have any evidence or reason to charge him with that.

They've already gone through a couple of judges trying to find one that can be objective. That's bad enough right there.
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#720 Apr 22 2012 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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Their reason for dismissing the last one is really, really weird to me. His wife worked for a law firm with a law analyst that had been outspoken about the case? That doesn't seem like a conflict of interest to me at all.
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#721 Apr 22 2012 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Quote:
While I'd love to think that there's some way to get a controversy free acquittal, a part of me believes that's just pure wishful thinking.
Glad to see that you haven't already made up your mind before the jury has.


Either you misunderstood my post, or I'm misunderstanding your response. I'm saying that if there is an acquittal I don't think there's any way for it to not be controversial. More specifically, I believe that if an acquittal occurs, there will be more than just controversy. There will be violence and rioting. But, as I said, I would love to be wrong about this. I'm just commenting on an historical pattern here.
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#722 Apr 22 2012 at 2:21 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Duke Lubriderm wrote:
Quote:
While I'd love to think that there's some way to get a controversy free acquittal, a part of me believes that's just pure wishful thinking.
Glad to see that you haven't already made up your mind before the jury has.


Either you misunderstood my post, or I'm misunderstanding your response. I'm saying that if there is an acquittal I don't think there's any way for it to not be controversial. More specifically, I believe that if an acquittal occurs, there will be more than just controversy. There will be violence and rioting. But, as I said, I would love to be wrong about this. I'm just commenting on an historical pattern here.


I don't think that's something we'll have to worry about, assuming he is acquitted. Trials take a long time, and public anger is generally in proportion to how much it inundates the group consciousness. The papers will cover less and less of the case as it goes on, so anger is going to steadily decrease.

An acquittal wouldn't bring it back in full force. And many people would accept the ruling as being the product of a system attempting to be as fair and just as possible. For those less willing to trust the system, it's still not going to reach the same level of anger that the initial coverage caused.

If we were going to see violence (at least at a noteworthy degree) from the case, we probably would have seen it already in far greater proportions than an eventual acquittal would cause.
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#723 Apr 22 2012 at 6:11 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
His wife worked for a law firm with a law analyst that had been outspoken about the case? That doesn't seem like a conflict of interest to me at all.
Having family who are publicly outspoken about a case makes it appear like the judge's decision could be influence by outside sources, which would lead to a mistrial. It doesn't have to be true, just the appearance of it is enough to have the case thrown out. Like here, he either choose the same as his wife which is pretty easy to see that she could have influenced his decision, or he could go in the other direction and someone can argue the only reason he did so was to appear unbiased and the other decision was impossible for him to make.
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#724 Apr 22 2012 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
His wife wasn't outspoken, someone at her firm was.

A lot of people are going to feel like justice wasn't served if Zimmerman gets off without any sort of punishment for his actions. If yu don't think this will be another OJ trial, you're disillusion.
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#725 Apr 22 2012 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
His wife wasn't outspoken, someone at her firm was.
Oh, well that being the case nothing changes because there is still a tangible connection that can be argued influenced his decision. It isn't a matter of it actually happening, just the possibility of it causing a mistrial that both sides are trying to lessen. I'm pretty sure I mentioned somewhere that the idea of a fair trial was ludicrous at this point, considering just how poisoned the jury pool (which would include the judge presiding over a bench trial) is. Nothing good is going to come out of this.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2012 8:45pm by lolgaxe
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#726 Apr 22 2012 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
A lot of people are going to feel like justice wasn't served if Zimmerman gets off without any sort of punishment for his actions. If yu don't think this will be another OJ trial, you're disillusion.


I can't remember--was there an upswing in violence after the OJ verdict? I can't find anything online suggesting there was. I've seen some allusions to an increase following his arrest, but that's all. And that was on a lawyer's website. I was too young at the time to remember this myself.

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Omegavegeta wrote:
His wife wasn't outspoken, someone at her firm was.
Oh, well that being the case nothing changes because there is still a tangible connection that can be argued influenced his decision. It isn't a matter of it actually happening, just the possibility of it causing a mistrial that both sides are trying to lessen. I'm pretty sure I mentioned somewhere that the idea of a fair trial was ludicrous at this point, considering just how poisoned the jury pool (which would include the judge presiding over a bench trial) is. Nothing good is going to come out of this.

Edited, Apr 22nd 2012 8:45pm by lolgaxe


I do get that, and I'm pretty sure this judge excused himself (iirc). It's just somewhat ridiculous. Thing is, any high-profile case should have this issue. We're talking about people active in criminal justice, interacting with other people acting in criminal justice, married to people in criminal justice. Any case that's large enough to be heard about by them would face this issue, and you don't have to have remotely the publicity of Zimmerman for that to be an issue. That's why I'm confused. These people are tuned into news about cases in the fields they work in. Even when the whole nation hasn't heard about it, you can be almost certain that the judges and DAs in the county have.

Which makes this judge stepping down an empty gesture. He's just as likely to have heard about what his wife's colleague thought on the matter for many other cases as well, and I'm sure he didn't bow out for those.
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#727 Apr 22 2012 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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The big thing is most cases don't become this big. Due to all the media attention it became too big to control, and now we're left with this fiasco. They're going to try their damnedest for a fair trial, but in the end no matter what happens it'll never really be resolved. Much like the OJ trial, where even after all this time people still **** heads over the result.

I guess every generation needs a ****** shitstorm.
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#728 Apr 22 2012 at 9:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I think the thing that makes most folks eye-roll these days is that OJ went on to get arrested and jailed for breaking and entering just a few years later.

He used up his get out of jail free card.

If Zimmerman is acquitted this go round but commits another crime of any sort later on, it'll be the same thing.
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#729 Apr 23 2012 at 8:47 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
I think the thing that makes most folks eye-roll these days is that OJ went on to get arrested and jailed for breaking and entering just a few years later.

He used up his get out of jail free card.

If Zimmerman is acquitted this go round but commits another crime of any sort later on, it'll be the same thing.

Well, B&E is a much lighter sentence than, y'know, double murder. Besides, OJ's gonna find the guy. One of these days. Killers always spend twenty years hiding out on golf courses.
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#730 Apr 23 2012 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I don't think that's something we'll have to worry about, assuming he is acquitted. Trials take a long time, and public anger is generally in proportion to how much it inundates the group consciousness. The papers will cover less and less of the case as it goes on, so anger is going to steadily decrease.


Because that's what the news does, covers less of the story while the trial is going on. And this results in decreased public emotion. Not sure what world you live in there buddy.

Quote:
An acquittal wouldn't bring it back in full force. And many people would accept the ruling as being the product of a system attempting to be as fair and just as possible. For those less willing to trust the system, it's still not going to reach the same level of anger that the initial coverage caused.


I disagree.

Quote:
If we were going to see violence (at least at a noteworthy degree) from the case, we probably would have seen it already in far greater proportions than an eventual acquittal would cause.


Can I quote you on this? ****. I don't need your permission. I will if/when an acquittal occurs. I suspect you're missing how the racial aspect of this will play out.


For those who mentioned it. The OJ trial is not the same, if for no other reason than the person acquitted was black. Maybe this is cynical of me, but I believe that had it been a famous white football player who killed a black woman and was then acquitted, there would have been riots.

A better comparison is Rodney King. While this case doesn't have quite the same degree of outrage at police, it's got enough similarities (whitish neighborhood watch/vigilante, white police not investigating enough allegedly due to not caring about dead black kid) to potentially turn violent. I suppose it does depend on how the information comes out and whether the public perception shifts sufficiently prior to an acquittal (again, assuming that happens). But from what I've seen so far in this case, there's been an amazing willingness by some to ignore relevant facts while focusing on wild speculation that I'm not sure if their minds can be changed after the fact.


A counter comparison (cause I'm fair and all that) would be the Duke Lacrosse case. But in that one, the woman's claims were so thoroughly debunked that even the most ardent supporters had to back away as quickly and quietly as possible. I don't know if that's likely to happen here. So much of this is going to be in the realm of "not enough evidence to prove or disprove", that it's hard to imagine the same sort of change in public perception. But IMO, absent that sort of absolute shift, there will be some serious outrage if there's an acquittal.
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#731 Apr 23 2012 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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Because that's what the news does, covers less of the story while the trial is going on. And this results in decreased public emotion. Not sure what world you live in there buddy.


The real one. Three weeks ago, there were new headlines about the case daily, at least. The average number of articles being published about the case was exponentially higher than it is now.

The press exists to to sell itself, and it will do that. But overloading the audience makes them stop caring to learn more. When the news first broke, people were finding out everything they could, so there was money to be made in donating a large percentage of your resources to reporting on that issue. But it's just not news anymore--they are only reporting the things that will get people reading, because the personal motivation to do so has been greatly reduced.

When Zimmerman was first arrested, the papers went so far as to discuss what purchases he had been made in prison. As a headline. Since then, the news has definitely tapered off to only covering the significant events. No one cares about what Zimmerman is doing in prison anymore (you know, if he was still in prison). Now the news sites are only headlining the major events, and covering less of the possible topics.

No one wants to read about how much rebuilding is still left to do in New Orleans, for instance, or how much of it has yet to even have basic utilities restored. The public doesn't want to read about it.

Yet it was a headline after the Japanese Tsunami that a cat had survived by perching on a pipe.

Do you see what I'm getting at?
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#732 Apr 23 2012 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think the reason there is a lull in the media coverage is because there is a lull in the action. Zimmerman has been arrested and is awaiting trial. Until the actual trial, or pre-trial hearings, start, there isn't a whole lot to report on. Yes, I know about how the media covers things like this, I live in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and a week after I was sick of hearing those words on the TV at my aunt and uncle's house in Lafayette.

The difference between the Zimmerman/Martin incident and a natural disaster like Katrina or the Japanese earthquake, is that there's only a few parties you can report on, and in this case one of them is dead. Once the trial starts, I'm sure you'll see a sickening amount of coverage as well as all of the protests and marches. I would be surprised to see widespread riots if Zimmerman is acquitted, but I wouldn't be surprised by something happening in Sanford.
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#733 Apr 23 2012 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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He's out on bail.
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#734 Apr 23 2012 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
No one wants to read about how much rebuilding is still left to do in New Orleans, for instance, or how much of it has yet to even have basic utilities restored. The public doesn't want to read about it.

Yet it was a headline after the Japanese Tsunami that a cat had survived by perching on a pipe.

Do you see what I'm getting at?


I think so.

You're ****** because it's been over a year and no one has done a follow-up story on the cat. Smiley: nod
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#735 Apr 23 2012 at 4:21 PM Rating: Good
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someproteinguy wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
No one wants to read about how much rebuilding is still left to do in New Orleans, for instance, or how much of it has yet to even have basic utilities restored. The public doesn't want to read about it.

Yet it was a headline after the Japanese Tsunami that a cat had survived by perching on a pipe.

Do you see what I'm getting at?


I think so.

You're ****** because it's been over a year and no one has done a follow-up story on the cat. Smiley: nod


Is that really too much to ask? I mean Neko-chan's a frickin' hero!
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#736 Apr 23 2012 at 4:24 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
When Zimmerman was first arrested...


Which was less than two weeks ago.

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... the papers went so far as to discuss what purchases he had been made in prison. As a headline.


Yes. They'll report any new development in the story as a big news headline. You think this wont happen with every minor happening in this trial process?

Quote:
Since then, the news has definitely tapered off to only covering the significant events.


Since two weeks ago? So I was imagining the headlines about Zimmerman's bail hearing? And I imagined the news just today about the police chief getting fired? And I imagined the news today (yesterday?) about released details about Zimmerman's past legal issues? It's tapered off, sure. But that does not mean that they aren't reporting every single new thing that comes along.

Quote:
No one cares about what Zimmerman is doing in prison anymore (you know, if he was still in prison). Now the news sites are only headlining the major events, and covering less of the possible topics.


I think they'll cover anything that's "new". And this means that every single thing that happens in this trial. Every motion. Every statement. Every hearing. All will get reported breathlessly by the media as it happens.

Quote:
Do you see what I'm getting at?


Of course. And everything that happens in this case will be the equivalent of a cat perched on a pipe. Trust me on this.
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#737 Apr 23 2012 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
No one wants to read about how much rebuilding is still left to do in New Orleans, for instance, or how much of it has yet to even have basic utilities restored. The public doesn't want to read about it.

Yet it was a headline after the Japanese Tsunami that a cat had survived by perching on a pipe.

Do you see what I'm getting at?


I think so.

You're ****** because it's been over a year and no one has done a follow-up story on the cat. Smiley: nod


Is that really too much to ask? I mean Neko-chan's a frickin' hero!


It's not the cat that was on the pipe, but check out Picture 41.
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#738 Apr 23 2012 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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Two weeks is not at all insignificant when we are talking about a period of three weeks or so when the case was making headlines every day across the nation.

More happened in the past week with regards to his case than happened during most of that initial period, which primarily offered new information in bursts.

The problem is that you are going to argue that they report all the "new" information as it comes along, but in that statement are using a different parameter for the word than earlier in the case.

Two days after Zimmerman's arrest, they reported the purchases he made as headline news. Two weeks later and we've only seen a few headlines, and they're a **** of a lot more important than the fact that he bought some snacks.

Aren't purchases he's made since then "new" information? How about how often he gets visitors? How much mail is he getting?

These are insignificant, yes, but that's my point. Earlier in the case, there was a market for insignificant information. That market has disappeared.

Hence my point--the public has been so inundated with information that they've started to care less and less. By the time the trial is over, their potential for anger is going to be significantly lower than it is now. Do you deny that? If he was ruled not guilty tomorrow, the risk of violence would be way higher than if the same ruling was delivered in two months. And it's not because people care any less from a moral perspective--it's because they are inevitably going to have other things to occupy their minds. Rage builds--an acquittal won't bring it back full force, it'll be relative to how angry they are at the time it's announced.

Even if the media reported nonstop, that would be the case. But they won't, because they are choosing the content that people are willing to invest themselves in. That's quickly including less and less of Zimmerman's case.
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#739 Apr 23 2012 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meanwhile back at the topic, someone pointed out to me today that judges in the lower courts are elected in Florida. No wonder they're all trying to distance themselves from this case.
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#740 Apr 23 2012 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
There will be violence and rioting. But, as I said, I would love to be wrong about this. I'm just commenting on an historical pattern here.


Instead of "historical pattern", are you just afraid to say "black people"?
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#741 Apr 23 2012 at 7:09 PM Rating: Good
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Two days after Zimmerman's arrest, they reported the purchases he made as headline news.


Honestly, I never heard any news stories about what he purchased in jail. I believe you, but let's not ignore the possibility that we're looking at different sources and thus have different perceptions of things.

Quote:
Two weeks later and we've only seen a few headlines, and they're a **** of a lot more important than the fact that he bought some snacks.


Again. I didn't see anything about the snacks. I did see stuff about the bail hearing, a special on CNN about race relations as they relate to the case, stuff about the police chief, stuff about the pictures of Zimmerman's head, stuff about Zimmerman's past arrests, etc. While I suppose the volume of marches and rallies has dropped a tad, that's not really surprising and it doesn't reflect a lack of emotion with regard to the issue itself.

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Hence my point--the public has been so inundated with information that they've started to care less and less. By the time the trial is over, their potential for anger is going to be significantly lower than it is now. Do you deny that?


Yes. I do. Do you know how much time passed between when the initial outrage about the Rodney King video occurred and when the trial occurred? Want to guess how much daily news coverage there was between those two? Yet, despite all those months of no talking about it, and despite the fact that most people didn't even realized that the trial of those police officers was going on until the verdict came in, once it did and the media reported it, all those folks who forgot about it became really really angry that things didn't turn out the way they assumed they would.

See. Those people assumed that the cops must be found guilty. They saw it on tape, right? They formed such a strong assumption about the events, that once the legal process started rolling, they just assumed they would get justice for Rodney King. And then when it didn't happen, they were shocked. How could this happen? The system must be rigged! Time to riot!!!

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If he was ruled not guilty tomorrow, the risk of violence would be way higher than if the same ruling was delivered in two months.


Actually, I think you're wrong. I think that the longer it goes with the public assuming a given result, and minimal coverage in between to decisively make them realize differently, the greater the odds of a violent response to an acquittal. You're not looking at this from the right perspective. To someone who has formed a complete opinion, Zimmerman is guilty. They know this. Unless something happens to change their mind, they will continue to believe that, right up to the moment he's acquitted. And at that moment, because they still believe absolutely that he must be guilty, the assumption will not be "gee. I must have been wrong", but "OMG! The system is broken. Justice was not served"

The longer it goes, the more violent people will become if the result is not what they believe it should be. Obviously, that's my subjective opinion. Every case is a little different. However, I think you are underestimating how time reinforces peoples assumptions. The best time to counter an assumption is as soon after it's formed as possible. If you show up months later with a different answer and *then* attempt to explain why their assumption was wrong, you've got a much steeper hill to climb than if you challenge them right off the bat.

Quote:
And it's not because people care any less from a moral perspective--it's because they are inevitably going to have other things to occupy their minds. Rage builds--an acquittal won't bring it back full force, it'll be relative to how angry they are at the time it's announced.


It'll be relative to how certain they were that the ruling was unjust. And that'll rest heavily on how its reported, but also whether they're prepared for the possibility along the way. This is the part that can be a bit hazy. If the news begins doing more and more stories questioning the veracity of the charges, and going over in more detail how the self defense laws apply to the case, more people will be more likely to accept an acquittal based on those things. But aside from the more talk focused news outlets, most are not doing this. So average Joe who just watches the evening news a few times a week has a month of outrage and rallies and headlines to reinforce his opinion about Zimmerman's guilt, and more or less silence since then to suggest otherwise. If he then wakes up one day to a headline about Zimmerman being acquitted, he's going to be shocked, confused, and possibly quite angry.

Quote:
Even if the media reported nonstop, that would be the case. But they won't, because they are choosing the content that people are willing to invest themselves in. That's quickly including less and less of Zimmerman's case.


Yup. Problem is that it's quickly becoming less and less of the Zimmerman case right during the time period where there's less outrage from the family and other political figures and more calm analysis available. But the news doesn't tend to report calm analysis. It's looking for the emotionally charged stuff. And in a case like this, that's almost all going to occur with anything that makes Zimmerman look guilty.


Again, your rage builds argument would suggest that there shouldn't have been riots after the Rodney King verdict. But there clearly were. May I suggest that rage comes back really really quickly in certain situations, and the appearance of a black person being screwed over by the justice system is one of those situations. As I said earlier, I would absolutely love to be wrong about this, but I have a bad feeling that I'm not.
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#742 Apr 23 2012 at 7:21 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
To someone who has formed a complete opinion, Zimmerman is guilty. They know this. Unless something happens to change their mind, they will continue to believe that, right up to the moment he's acquitted. And at that moment, because they still believe absolutely that he must be guilty, the assumption will not be "gee. I must have been wrong", but "OMG! The system is broken. Justice was not served"


You do realize this what voir dire is for, yes? To avoid these types of people in jury selection? Frankly, it doesn't matter one whiff what the public thinks.

Quote:
May I suggest that rage comes back really really quickly in certain situations, and the appearance of a black person being screwed over by the justice system is one of those situations. As I said earlier, I would absolutely love to be wrong about this, but I have a bad feeling that I'm not.


See, not so hard.
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#743 Apr 23 2012 at 8:00 PM Rating: Good
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Kaelesh wrote:
Frankly, it doesn't matter one whiff what the public thinks.


That's a sure-fire way to ensure that no riots ever occur. Smiley: oyvey
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#744 Apr 23 2012 at 8:05 PM Rating: Decent
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What **** do I give if some small minded morons riot in Florida? It's Florida. They survived Casey Anthony, they'll get over this too.
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#745 Apr 23 2012 at 8:50 PM Rating: Good
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Sure, but the rest of us will have to hear about it for two weeks, and I'd much rather news stories about cats on pipes.
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#746 Apr 24 2012 at 8:03 AM Rating: Good
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Let's not forget that we live in a different world now than we did when the OJ verdict came down, and a vastly different world than we lived in when the Rodney King police trial occured. We live in a world now where "news" is available at the touch of a button. Back then, sure there were a few 24 hour news channels, but most of them actually reported news and what OJ bought from the prison commissary didn't count.

Today, there are hundreds if places you can get around-the-clock news from, and they are all striving and fighting for our attention. If www.newswhore.com thinks they can get a few extra visitors to their site by telling us what Zimmerman did during his four days in jail, it becomes news. Ten years ago, **** maybe even five years ago, that wouldn't have been news unless you frequented TMZ.
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#747 Jun 18 2012 at 5:00 PM Rating: Good
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So apparently there's an update on this story.

The bank records, from separate credit union accounts, show Zimmerman and his wife made dozens of transactions between April 11 and April 20 just under the $10,000 limit that triggers government scrutiny under federal anti-money laundering laws.

Some were overlapping, as George transferred a total of $74,000 to Shellie, and Shellie transferred more than $85,500 back to George. All were in amounts between $9,000 and $9,999.

Another $47,000 was transferred to an account held by Zimmerman's sister, who was not named by prosecutors.

Among the transactions were 16 deposits in amounts from $9,000 to $9,990 from a PayPal account opened by George Zimmerman. The account was linked to a now-defunct website set up by Zimmerman to raise donations from supporters.

Anti-money laundering laws prohibit "structuring," which is intentionally making multiple transactions just under the $10,000 limit to avoid federal scrutiny.


The penalty for tax structuring is a fine and not more than 5 years, unless the amount exceeds $100,000 within a 12 month period, and then it's double. Looks like Zimmerman may get 10+ years regardless of the outcome of his self-defense trial.
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#748 Jun 18 2012 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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Well that's how they got Capone...
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#749 Jun 18 2012 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
What an idiot. Smiley: facepalm
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#750 Jun 19 2012 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Well that's how they got Capone...
The shooting at 2122 North Clark Street was clearly self defense.
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#751 Jun 19 2012 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
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I'm curious what normally happens when people receive a bunch of money for legal defense in situations like this, and whether the Zimmerman's actions are unusual in that context. Their biggest mistake here appears to have been not hiring an accountant to manage the money for them.
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