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In my foreign land, murder is OKFollow

#1 Mar 21 2012 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/21/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=mrss_igoogle_cnn

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Outrage over the killing of an unarmed Florida teen rippled nationwide as supporters planned more protests Wednesday and a petition demanding the shooter's arrest amassed nearly 1 million signatures.

Trayvon Martin was fatally shot on February 26 while walking to the house of his father's fiancee in Sanford after a trip to a convenience store.

George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch leader, said he killed the teen in self defense.

...

Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged in the killing of the black teenager. A police report describes him as a white male, but his family says he is Hispanic.

The February 26 shooting occurred when Zimmerman -- who was patrolling the neighborhood -- saw the teen walking home after buying candy and a drink at a convenience store.

...

Florida's deadly force law, also called "stand your ground," allows people to meet "force with force" if they believe they or someone else is in danger of being seriously harmed by an assailant, but exactly what happened in the moments leading up to Trayvon's death remains unclear.



I remember reading about this law a long time ago and being horrified, knowing any dumb Florida redneck with a gun could blow my head off if I so much as looked at him funny, and get off with "self defense." I'm not sure when it went into effect, but I won't be surprised when incidents like these happen again and again.
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#2 Mar 21 2012 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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That Zimmerman was kind of like Batman, except without the money, the morals, the costume, the questionable taste in sidekicks, or evidence of crimes.
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#3 Mar 21 2012 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
That Zimmerman was kind of like Batman, except without the money, the morals, the costume, the questionable taste in sidekicks, or evidence of crimes.


So just the form fitting suit then?

(on topic I'm really glad I'm not down there for this one).
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#4 Mar 21 2012 at 9:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Florida's deadly force law, also called "stand your ground," allows people to meet "force with force" if they believe they or someone else is in danger of being seriously harmed by an assailant,

Quote:
During the incident, the teen started to run, Zimmerman reported.

Quote:
When he said he was following, the dispatcher told him, "We don't need you to do that."


Yeah, the guy is probably a racist and this is likely flat out murder. Why was he carrying a firearm on a neighborhood watch patrol anyway? I'm a proponent of gun ownership rights and such, but this is a classic example of why concealed carry (assuming Zimmerman even had a CC permit) is generally a bad idea. The police should arrest the ****** and send him to trial, IMO.
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#5 Mar 21 2012 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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What ****** me off about the absurd "self defense" notion is that Zimmerman had been following the kid in his car for a while before he finally confronted the driver about it. Not only that, the 911 dispatcher was ordering him not to get involved.

That makes Zimmerman the aggressor. Even imaging there was a fight (which all witnesses seem to deny), Zimmerman started the fight. So I guess that's good to know--if I live in Florida, all I need to do is start a fight to justify murdering someone.
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#6 Mar 21 2012 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
I'm a proponent of gun ownership rights and such, but this is a classic example of why concealed carry (assuming Zimmerman even had a CC permit) is generally a bad idea.
I don't believe some random Joe off the street should be allowed a concealed carry permit, but I'd probably shoot someone if they tried to take mine away.
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#7 Mar 21 2012 at 10:00 AM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
I'm a proponent of gun ownership rights and such, but this is a classic example of why concealed carry (assuming Zimmerman even had a CC permit) is generally a bad idea.
I don't believe some random Joe off the street should be allowed a concealed carry permit, but I'd probably shoot someone if they tried to take mine away.


Justify the difference between yourself and a random Joe...
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You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#8 Mar 21 2012 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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He's had extensive training on how to use it and in dealing with high-stress situations?

[EDIT]

I actually do think this is a real difference. If Average Joe wants to be allowed to carry a concealed weapon, he should need to be cleared to do so through something more significant than a 3 day waiting period and a background check.

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 12:03pm by idiggory
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#9 Mar 21 2012 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
Why was he carrying a firearm on a neighborhood watch patrol anyway?


I'd love to know what the answer to this is as well. I have a brother-in-law who runs a private security company, and they've never felt the need to go beyond pepper spray. It's not like it seems like that scary of a neighborhood or anything.

Well, unless you're black I guess... Smiley: rolleyes
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#10 Mar 21 2012 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
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BrownDuck wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
I'm a proponent of gun ownership rights and such, but this is a classic example of why concealed carry (assuming Zimmerman even had a CC permit) is generally a bad idea.
I don't believe some random Joe off the street should be allowed a concealed carry permit, but I'd probably shoot someone if they tried to take mine away.
Justify the difference between yourself and a random Joe...
I don't believe in giving justifications, really. What one person believes is justifiable another might not. I firmly believe in escalation of force. If you come at me with your fist, I'm going to slug you with a blunt object. You come at me with a blunt object, I'm going to shoot you. My justification for it is that every time my company goes to the range for weapons training or qualifications, or there needs to be an armed escort of some sort (a VIP or a detained individual) there needs to be a security detail to escort it, for which I'm part of, and having a second weapon hidden in case of trouble makes me feel safer.
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#11 Mar 21 2012 at 10:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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BrownDuck wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
I'm a proponent of gun ownership rights and such, but this is a classic example of why concealed carry (assuming Zimmerman even had a CC permit) is generally a bad idea.
I don't believe some random Joe off the street should be allowed a concealed carry permit, but I'd probably shoot someone if they tried to take mine away.


Justify the difference between yourself and a random Joe...
He's a GI Joe.
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#12 Mar 21 2012 at 10:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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Oh no no no, there are plenty of people in the Armed Forces who shouldn't have CC permits. ****, there are plenty of people here that I'm baffled at being allowed to carry anything sharper than a spoon.
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#13 Mar 21 2012 at 10:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just wanted to make a joke about you being a GI Joe rather than a Random Joe.
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#14 Mar 21 2012 at 10:35 AM Rating: Excellent
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And knowing is half the battle.
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#15 Mar 21 2012 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
While I'm outraged by this, I don't know if they'll be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense. That + Florida's dumb law might make it even harder to convict Zimmerman of murder.

Racism is a motherfucker.
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#16 Mar 21 2012 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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Smiley: rolleyes
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#17 Mar 21 2012 at 12:46 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
BrownDuck wrote:
I'm a proponent of gun ownership rights and such, but this is a classic example of why concealed carry (assuming Zimmerman even had a CC permit) is generally a bad idea.
I don't believe some random Joe off the street should be allowed a concealed carry permit, but I'd probably shoot someone if they tried to take mine away.
Justify the difference between yourself and a random Joe...
I don't believe in giving justifications, really. What one person believes is justifiable another might not. I firmly believe in escalation of force. If you come at me with your fist, I'm going to slug you with a blunt object. You come at me with a blunt object, I'm going to shoot you. My justification for it is that every time my company goes to the range for weapons training or qualifications, or there needs to be an armed escort of some sort (a VIP or a detained individual) there needs to be a security detail to escort it, for which I'm part of, and having a second weapon hidden in case of trouble makes me feel safer.


If you're part of a company security detail, that's one thing, but on the street in public, in general, I give you no more credability to carry a concealed firearm than this guy or any other. I don't even think off-duty police officers should carry them. The simple fact of the matter is that people make judgement errors. Outside of official police, military, or security duty, I simply think it's dangerous for anybody to carry a concealed firearm. Training or not, there's too much potential for misuse. We are all human, after all.




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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#18 Mar 21 2012 at 1:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's a report of a possibility of a racial slur being yelled and recorded during the 911 call. If that's the case, there's grounds for a hate crime investigation.

Not sure if anyone heard the transcript of the phone call that the teen was actually having when Zimmerman finally caught up with the kid. The kid was already freaked out that Zimmerman was following him. And he started running and thought he lost him. Zimmerman caught up with the kid. The girl heard Trayvon ask Zimmerman why he was following him, then she heard shoving and the connection went dead.

Deadly force used in self-defense is generally only acceptable when you have a reasonable belief that deadly force will be used against you. This kid was trying to get away from Zimmerman, Zimmerman followed him (after the police dispatcher told him not to), and it appears that Zimmerman is the one that initiated any kind of physical contact.

I think his self-defense theory is really weak. I think Zimmerman already had it in his head that he was going to confront who he thought was a unwelcomed punk in his gated community and he called 911 preemptively to cover his *** and justify to himself that he could confront Trayvon. He was told police were dispatched and he shouldn't follow Trayvon anymore. Did he mean to kill Trayvon? I don't think so, but since he had a gun, it's going to be argued that when you're in possession of a gun, you have the intention of using it.

ETA: The national neighborhood watch organization was also very quick to point out that whatever organization Zimmerman claims he's part of is not a recognized group of the NNW.

ETA2: Seminole County released 46 other calls that Zimmerman made to 911 in the months before Trayvon's death. They are all reports of suspicious people in the community and every suspicious person was African-American. If that's true, I believe that Zimmerman's actions were racially motivated.

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 12:47pm by Thumbelyna

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 1:15pm by Thumbelyna

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 1:17pm by Thumbelyna
#19 Mar 21 2012 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
While I'm outraged by this, I don't know if they'll be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense. That + Florida's dumb law might make it even harder to convict Zimmerman of murder.


On the flip side though, the law was specifically written for cases like this. Loud voices shouting assumptions aside, we don't really know what went on that night. I don't think that those leaping to conclusions and launching into civil action are really helping matters either. Zimmerman was legally licensed to carry that gun. He was on a neighborhood watch patrol. The law was written to give people in that position the benefit of the doubt so that they aren't automatically arrested and charged in cases just like this.

Let the police do their investigation. I suspect there's more to this than we've heard so far.

Quote:
Racism is a motherfucker.


Yes, it is. But there is absolutely zero evidence that race was at all a factor in this case despite what appear to be massive efforts to make it appear so.
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#20 Mar 21 2012 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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No evidence? You really don't get your news from anywhere.
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#21 Mar 21 2012 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
While I'm outraged by this, I don't know if they'll be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt it wasn't self defense. That + Florida's dumb law might make it even harder to convict Zimmerman of murder.


On the flip side though, the law was specifically written for cases like this. Loud voices shouting assumptions aside, we don't really know what went on that night. I don't think that those leaping to conclusions and launching into civil action are really helping matters either. Zimmerman was legally licensed to carry that gun. He was on a neighborhood watch patrol. The law was written to give people in that position the benefit of the doubt so that they aren't automatically arrested and charged in cases just like this.

Let the police do their investigation. I suspect there's more to this than we've heard so far.

Quote:
Racism is a motherfucker.


Yes, it is. But there is absolutely zero evidence that race was at all a factor in this case despite what appear to be massive efforts to make it appear so.


The teen fled the scene. The killer chased him (despite a 911 dispatcher directive not to) and gunned him down. This much is known fact. Racially motivated or not, the man should be arrested for murder. The courts can decide his whether he's guilty or not.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#22 Mar 21 2012 at 2:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Loud voices shouting assumptions aside, we don't really know what went on that night. I don't think that those leaping to conclusions and launching into civil action are really helping matters either. Zimmerman was legally licensed to carry that gun. He was on a neighborhood watch patrol. The law was written to give people in that position the benefit of the doubt so that they aren't automatically arrested and charged in cases just like this.


This has certainly taken on a life of it's own. Yay 24 hour media... Smiley: rolleyes

It sounds like the Federal Govt. is more involved now which hopefully can alleviate any problems with meddling local officials. I'm content to wait and let them investigate things, and more than willing to fall into the 'innocent until proven guilty' crowd.

I still want to know why he felt he needed a handgun for patrolling a gated community though. It just doesn't strike me as dangerous enough to justify it from my distance. I imagine he has his reasons though, and I'm sure we'll hear them in time.

Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
ETA2: Seminole County released 46 other calls that Zimmerman made to 911 in the months before Trayvon's death. They are all reports of suspicious people in the community and every suspicious person was African-American.


Smiley: facepalm

Well that won't help his case. Smiley: oyvey
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#23 Mar 21 2012 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:


Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
ETA2: Seminole County released 46 other calls that Zimmerman made to 911 in the months before Trayvon's death. They are all reports of suspicious people in the community and every suspicious person was African-American.


Smiley: facepalm

Well that won't help his case. Smiley: oyvey


Not going to help his case either that there was an eyewitness (teen walking his dog) who saw two figures that night. He says that even though it was very dark, he saw one figure lying on the ground yelling for help with another figure standing over him. Unfortunately the dog got away from him right then and when he went to grab for his dog, he heard a gun shot seconds later and the screaming stopped. If that's really true, that right there is literally the smoking gun.

ETA: The police department also did a shoddy job of investigating this. A narcotics detective was sent to the scene instead of a homicide detective. No drug or alcohol test was given to Zimmerman which is standard in any investigation of a death. It appears that the police department took everything Zimmerman said at face value without an actual investigation into what occurred. There are reports that the police department even changed or slanted their witness accounts. When witnesses came forward saying they heard a young boy scream, they were told that it was Zimmerman screaming for help and at least one witness is saying the police made that assumption.

ETA2: And the police drug tested the teen's body instead. Oh, and even though they recovered the teen's cell phone that night, no one went through his phone to immediately contact his family, much less the teen's girlfriend that should have show on the most recent call logs that they were on the phone just minutes before he died.

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 2:06pm by Thumbelyna

Edited, Mar 21st 2012 2:31pm by Thumbelyna
#24 Mar 21 2012 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
someproteinguy wrote:


Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
ETA2: Seminole County released 46 other calls that Zimmerman made to 911 in the months before Trayvon's death. They are all reports of suspicious people in the community and every suspicious person was African-American.


Smiley: facepalm

Well that won't help his case. Smiley: oyvey


Not going to help his case either that there was an eyewitness (teen walking his dog) who saw two figures that night. He says that even though it was very dark, he saw one figure lying on the ground yelling for help with another figure standing over him. Unfortunately the dog got away from him right then and when he went to grab for his dog, he heard a gun shot seconds later and the screaming stopped. If that's really true, that right there is literally the smoking gun.


I couldn't even imagine being that teen. I have no clue how you get over watching someone being executed in cold blood (which is what it appears to be, regardless of if it was so).
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#25 Mar 21 2012 at 2:59 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
No evidence? You really don't get your news from anywhere.


Yes. No evidence. As in aside from people speculating that it might have been racially motivated and repeating that speculation, there's no actual evidence that racism played any role at all. Wild speculation that he said "f-ing coons" during the 911 call turned out to be just that: wild speculation. So other than the fact that the victim was black, what evidence is there that racism was a factor?
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#26 Mar 21 2012 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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BrownDuck wrote:
The teen fled the scene. The killer chased him (despite a 911 dispatcher directive not to) and gunned him down. This much is known fact.


Also, that there was a physical altercation and struggle prior to the gunshot going off. The victims girlfriend's account confirms this. Now, perhaps a 28 year old 240lb man ran down a 140lb 17 year old, or perhaps there's more to the story than the simplistic version you're hearing from one side?

Quote:
Racially motivated or not, the man should be arrested for murder. The courts can decide his whether he's guilty or not.


Perhaps there should be an investigation first? Just a thought.
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