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#352 Mar 29 2012 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
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Elinda wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And unarmed teenager who was in the process of beating a man senseless according to three eye witnesses. Isn't this exactly the situation in which even the most ardent gun control advocates would acknowledge that the use of a hand gun for self defense should be allowed? If not when you're on your back being beaten, then when?
Why am I completely dumbfounded that you can so easily and so blindly cherry-pick the rumors you choose to believe and attempt to convince us are fact?


I'm not cherry picking rumors. I have restricted my statements and based my conclusions off the following three types of sources:

1. Audio tapes released from various police sources.

2. Actual quotes from witnesses reported in real media outlets (and yes, I'm even including HuffPost as a "real media outlet" here, since they are bound to the same rules when quoting).

3. Official statements from the police (specifically I linked to the actual police reports from that evening).


What I am *not* using:

1. Speculation on blogs or even mainstream media outlets. You'll note I haven't talked about Trayvon having gold teeth, or tatoos, nor his twitter handle and some of the things he's alleged to have tweeted. Why? Because the sources for those aren't sufficient to say they're true and I at least am trying to look only at verifiable facts.

2. Statements by lawyers representing either party. Ok. I broke this rule slightly be saying that Zimmerman had a broken nose (instead of just a bloodied nose as stated in the police report). My bad. Minor point at best though.

3. Third party statements or claims from any source. If I can't find a clear line tracing a piece of information back to a factual source, I assume it's speculation (or at least unconfirmed).

Quote:
We're all reading the same gossip gbaji.


Yes. But I'm making an active effort to filter out the speculative and/or unproven claims from those which we can place a reasonable level of trust on. Most people are just repeating whatever stuff they hear which supports the position they've taken.

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None of us have any facts - that includes you.


Of course we have facts. We have the facts in the police reports. We have the facts of the various audio recordings. We have the facts of the quoted statements from witnesses. All of those are facts.

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We can only have an opinion. You choose to defend the white man who shot another human being dead, others of us choose to defend the dead kid.


I choose to base my choice on that which is most supported by the facts we actually know.

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You might do some soul-searching and ask yourself why you've come to the conclusion that you have.


Um... Because my conclusion is the one best supported by the facts? How did you decide yours? Maybe you need that soul searching more than I?
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#353 Mar 29 2012 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
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Well, you clearly aren't using the 911 call, since you insist that he wasn't following the kid.
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#354 Mar 29 2012 at 5:47 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:

1. Speculation on blogs or even mainstream media outlets. You'll note I haven't talked about Trayvon having gold teeth, or tatoos, nor his twitter handle and some of the things he's alleged to have tweeted. Why? Because the sources for those aren't sufficient to say they're true and I at least am trying to look only at verifiable facts.

And you shouldn't ever look at things like this. Because anything Martin may have said, tweeted, texted, etc., has absolutely no bearing on anything. He was a guy walking home from the store and Zimmerman decided he looked suspicious. Why anyone or any website is even mentioning what might have been posted on his Facebook is beyond me.
#355 Mar 29 2012 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Well, you clearly aren't using the 911 call, since you insist that he wasn't following the kid.


In his car. You're leaving off a very significant part, aren't you? I never said that Zimmerman did not follow Martin on foot after leaving his car. I was countering your repeated claim that Martin was justified to be scared of Zimmerman because Zimmerman had been trailing him in his car.

All we actually know from the audio of Zimmerman's call is that he's parked up the street watching Martin walking towards him. Martin runs during that call, and *then* Zimmerman gets out of his car and follows him. We have absolutely zero facts which state that Martin ever saw Zimmerman prior to walking towards his car, much less had been stalked by him (would be strange to be stalked by someone driving a car and then walk up towards it a couple minutes later, right?).


While I will freely admit to this being speculative, Martin's actions are much more consistent with someone who was up to no-good, saw someone in a parked car up the road, then realized that person was watching him, and decided to run to avoid getting in trouble. There are massive holes in the story that assumes that Martin ran at that point because he believed Zimmerman was stalking him.

But to realize this, you'd have to discount the unsubstantiated rumors you've heard and actually go back and listen to that audio tape with an open mind.
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#356 Mar 29 2012 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
Um, no. Was Zimmerman's car marked as a neighborhood watch person? I'm guessing not. All Marin likely knew, was that someone in an unmarked car was following him. I'd be scared too, and probably try to lose the car as well. If I knew the person in the car was a cop or a neighborhood watch person, that'd be a different story.

According to the girlfriend's account, when Zimmerman approached him, Martin asked him why he was following him. Zimmerman didn't say he was from the neighborhood watch, or do anything to identify him as any sort of authority figure. All he did was respond by asking him what he was doing there. Martin had absolutely no way of knowing that Zimmerman was justified in asking him what he was doing, or in following him. He felt threatened and scared. When people are scared, they don't think rationally, they rely on their instincts.
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#357 Mar 29 2012 at 6:18 PM Rating: Good
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If your argument, gbaji, is actually going to be that I'm leaving out the part that he was in a car, then you're a dumbass. The fact that he was following him in a car has clearly been my main point for about 7 pages now.
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#358 Mar 29 2012 at 6:29 PM Rating: Good
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Um, no. Was Zimmerman's car marked as a neighborhood watch person? I'm guessing not. All Marin likely knew, was that someone in an unmarked car was following him. I'd be scared too, and probably try to lose the car as well. If I knew the person in the car was a cop or a neighborhood watch person, that'd be a different story.

According to the girlfriend's account, when Zimmerman approached him, Martin asked him why he was following him. Zimmerman didn't say he was from the neighborhood watch, or do anything to identify him as any sort of authority figure. All he did was respond by asking him what he was doing there. Martin had absolutely no way of knowing that Zimmerman was justified in asking him what he was doing, or in following him. He felt threatened and scared. When people are scared, they don't think rationally, they rely on their instincts.

Obviously the girlfriend is lying, unlike Zimmerman.
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#359 Mar 29 2012 at 7:15 PM Rating: Good
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#360 Mar 29 2012 at 7:34 PM Rating: Default
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
The fact that he was following him in a car has clearly been my main point for about 7 pages now.


Yes. I know. That's the claim you keep repeating, but for which there is zero evidence. Where did you get this idea? There's nothing in the audio tape to suggest this. There's nothing in any witness statement to suggest this. I don't believe that even the girlfriends account (which is a pretty questionable source really) specifically says that Martin was followed by someone in a car.

Why do you keep repeating this as a fact then?
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#361 Mar 29 2012 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
Um, no. Was Zimmerman's car marked as a neighborhood watch person? I'm guessing not. All Marin likely knew, was that someone in an unmarked car was following him.


But not following him while in that car. I mean, it's nearly irrelevant anyway, since that's not a crime or anything either, but this is a claim that many keep repeating in order to bolster the argument that Martin had a legitimate reason to run, but I can find absolutely no actual source for it.

Can you?

Quote:
I'd be scared too, and probably try to lose the car as well. If I knew the person in the car was a cop or a neighborhood watch person, that'd be a different story.


At the risk of repeating myself enough times for what I'm saying to sink in, there's no evidence that Zimmerman actually followed Martin while in his car. At all.

Quote:
According to the girlfriend's account, when Zimmerman approached him...


On foot. Not in his car.

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... Martin asked him why he was following him.


According to the girlfriend. According to Zimmerman, Martin said something like "are you looking for trouble? Well, you found it" and then punched him in the nose.

Um... But inconsistent accounts aside, this still happened while Zimmerman was on foot. I'm just trying to get people to realize how much of the mental image they have of the events is completely fabricated. Idiggory keeps repeating this tale of a scared kid being stalked by some creepy guy in a car, who follows him in that car for several minutes, slowing down, shining his lights at him, etc. But there is no evidence that any of that happened. At all.

Quote:
Zimmerman didn't say he was from the neighborhood watch, or do anything to identify him as any sort of authority figure. All he did was respond by asking him what he was doing there.


Again, this is the girlfriends story, told through the family's lawyer. Doesn't mean that it's false, but we should not assume its gospel truth. Certainly, there's no reason to take her story at complete face value (doubly so since she's signed nothing which binds her legally to that story), while assuming that Zimmerman's account must be a lie. And here's the thing: Someone walks up to you and asks you what you're doing somewhere (while you're on private property), isn't your first assumption that this is either a neighborhood watchman or maybe just the local busybody? It's kind of exactly the question someone who's watching a property would ask of someone walking through it.

Quote:
Martin had absolutely no way of knowing that Zimmerman was justified in asking him what he was doing, or in following him. He felt threatened and scared. When people are scared, they don't think rationally, they rely on their instincts.


Anyone is justified to ask that question, neighborhood watch or not. No one is justified to assault that person just for asking that question. I can walk up to you on a public street and ask you what you're doing here any time I want. You're free to ignore me, or say it's none of my business, but you don't get to punch me in the nose for it.
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#362 Mar 29 2012 at 8:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:

1. Speculation on blogs or even mainstream media outlets. You'll note I haven't talked about Trayvon having gold teeth, or tatoos, nor his twitter handle and some of the things he's alleged to have tweeted. Why? Because the sources for those aren't sufficient to say they're true and I at least am trying to look only at verifiable facts.

And you shouldn't ever look at things like this. Because anything Martin may have said, tweeted, texted, etc., has absolutely no bearing on anything. He was a guy walking home from the store and Zimmerman decided he looked suspicious. Why anyone or any website is even mentioning what might have been posted on his Facebook is beyond me.


When there are two sides of a story which contradict each other, and no witnesses to verify either side, it becomes a question of character. This happens in court cases and it happens even more in the court of public opinion.

Much of the outrage over this stems from the perception of Trayvon Martin as a clean cut, innocent kid, who did nothing wrong, and couldn't hurt a fly. Just go back and read some of the earlier posts in this thread and you'll see people making arguments like "Zimmerman must have started the fight because a little kid would *never* attack someone so much bigger than him". Finding out that Trayvon is much larger than he's pictured in the photos we've seen, and has been suspended several times from school (so *not* an honor student), calls much of that into question. Finding out that he may have tattoos and gold teeth might call into question the claim that there was nothing about him that Zimmerman might find suspicious except him being black. And finding out that one of his suspensions was for having what the school officials believed to be stolen property really calls into question the blanket assumption that Martin not just wasn't doing anything wrong, but couldn't have been doing anything wrong.


All of those things actually are quite relevant in a case where public perception is quite obviously significant. However, I have not mentioned those things in this thread (up until just now), and I certainly have not and do not base any of my arguments on those things. Not because they wouldn't be relevant, but because I'm trying to apply the same consistent rules when assessing sources of information. I'm not going to assume something popping up on some blog sites and then being repeated by some people in the media without any verification of the facts is true.

As I said earlier, I'm looking just as the facts that can be reasonably assumed to be true.
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#363 Mar 29 2012 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Oh. And funny thing about that link I posted. It's a perfect example of what I've been talking about all along. Just the first part is amazing:

Quote:
Very few of the facts in the case of Trayvon Martin's death are in dispute. On February 26, 2012, 17-year-old honor student Martin was visiting his father in a gated community in Sanford, Florida. Martin left his father's home in order to buy candy at a nearby 7-11. As he walked back home, neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman patrolled the area in his van with a loaded gun, as he often did. Zimmerman called 911 and reported a "suspicious" person -- Martin, who according to Zimmerman, was "walking around" and "looking about." The police dispatcher advised Zimmerman that police would arrive to investigate Martin who by now was a "suspect" (although the only "crimes" he ever committed were those of "walking around" and "looking about"). What appears to have aroused Zimmerman's suspicion is the fact that Trayvon Martin was a young Black man (in fact, still a youth, at just 17 years of age). Young Black men, as Zimmerman's neighbors attest, were a special source of anxiety and fascination for him.


She starts out talking about how few of the facts are in dispute, and then proceeds to list off a set of things that are either factually wrong *or* are absolutely in dispute. I've put them in red. Nearly every sentence has a disputed or false statement in it. Martin was not an honor student. He was not at his father's house, but his father's fiance. I'm not sure about the van bit, but this is the first I've heard it described as a van and not an SUV. Van, obviously conjures up images of some man out to abduct a child much more than an SUV does. Zimmerman did not call 911. He called the non emergency line. He was not called a "suspect". The word used is "subject", which many people mistake as being called a "suspect", so I can forgive her, but if her point is to talk about important facts that are not in dispute, she should maybe get her facts straight. And I marked her entire last two sentences since it's pure speculation on her part.


This would be an appalling lack of accuracy in most cases, but sadly, this is typical of the sorts of blogs/articles/etc being written. And those absolutely have influenced how people view this issue. That's why I keep asking people to ignore the wild stories and speculation and look just at what we actually know to be true. The story isn't nearly so cut and dried if you do that.
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#364 Mar 29 2012 at 8:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Step 1, take head out of ***.
Step 2, Listen to 911 call.
Step 3, DIAF.
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#365 Mar 29 2012 at 9:10 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:

1. Speculation on blogs or even mainstream media outlets. You'll note I haven't talked about Trayvon having gold teeth, or tatoos, nor his twitter handle and some of the things he's alleged to have tweeted. Why? Because the sources for those aren't sufficient to say they're true and I at least am trying to look only at verifiable facts.

And you shouldn't ever look at things like this. Because anything Martin may have said, tweeted, texted, etc., has absolutely no bearing on anything. He was a guy walking home from the store and Zimmerman decided he looked suspicious. Why anyone or any website is even mentioning what might have been posted on his Facebook is beyond me.


When there are two sides of a story which contradict each other, and no witnesses to verify either side, it becomes a question of character. This happens in court cases and it happens even more in the court of public opinion.

Much of the outrage over this stems from the perception of Trayvon Martin as a clean cut, innocent kid, who did nothing wrong, and couldn't hurt a fly. Just go back and read some of the earlier posts in this thread and you'll see people making arguments like "Zimmerman must have started the fight because a little kid would *never* attack someone so much bigger than him". Finding out that Trayvon is much larger than he's pictured in the photos we've seen, and has been suspended several times from school (so *not* an honor student), calls much of that into question. Finding out that he may have tattoos and gold teeth might call into question the claim that there was nothing about him that Zimmerman might find suspicious except him being black. And finding out that one of his suspensions was for having what the school officials believed to be stolen property really calls into question the blanket assumption that Martin not just wasn't doing anything wrong, but couldn't have been doing anything wrong.


All of those things actually are quite relevant in a case where public perception is quite obviously significant. However, I have not mentioned those things in this thread (up until just now), and I certainly have not and do not base any of my arguments on those things. Not because they wouldn't be relevant, but because I'm trying to apply the same consistent rules when assessing sources of information. I'm not going to assume something popping up on some blog sites and then being repeated by some people in the media without any verification of the facts is true.

As I said earlier, I'm looking just as the facts that can be reasonably assumed to be true.

So, Zimmerman is the social media police also?

I never said Martin was as pure as the driven snow. I was just making the point that all Zimmerman knew was there was a guy walking through his neighborhood and Zimmerman decided he looked suspicious. And all this attention to what Martin may or may not have written online is silly.
#366 Mar 29 2012 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
When there are two sides of a story which contradict each other, and no witnesses to verify either side, it becomes a question of character. This happens in court cases and it happens even more in the court of public opinion.

Much of the outrage over this stems from the perception of Trayvon Martin as a clean cut, innocent kid, who did nothing wrong, and couldn't hurt a fly. Just go back and read some of the earlier posts in this thread and you'll see people making arguments like "Zimmerman must have started the fight because a little kid would *never* attack someone so much bigger than him". Finding out that Trayvon is much larger than he's pictured in the photos we've seen, and has been suspended several times from school (so *not* an honor student), calls much of that into question. Finding out that he may have tattoos and gold teeth might call into question the claim that there was nothing about him that Zimmerman might find suspicious except him being black. And finding out that one of his suspensions was for having what the school officials believed to be stolen property really calls into question the blanket assumption that Martin not just wasn't doing anything wrong, but couldn't have been doing anything wrong.

All of those things actually are quite relevant in a case where public perception is quite obviously significant. However, I have not mentioned those things in this thread (up until just now), and I certainly have not and do not base any of my arguments on those things. Not because they wouldn't be relevant, but because I'm trying to apply the same consistent rules when assessing sources of information. I'm not going to assume something popping up on some blog sites and then being repeated by some people in the media without any verification of the facts is true.

As I said earlier, I'm looking just as the facts that can be reasonably assumed to be true.

If you want to question character, try looking into Zimmerman's list of priors. They include charges of assaulting police officers and a few domestic abuses, resulting in restraining orders. This guy is not exactly a Buddhist monk; he's more of a failed cop-wannabe.
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#367 Mar 29 2012 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
But guys, Zimmerman was suspicious not because Martin was black, but because he had gold teeth, tatoos, & a hoodie! Martin MIGHT, based on some tweets, have also sold POT. He had been suspended, so he was a THUG and not the innocent victim the MEDIA is claiming him to be.

Sure, he was unarmed walking back to his Dad's girlfriend's house, was confronted by ZImmerman, & killed during the altercation- BUT it was his fault, not the guy that pulled the trigger's. Guns don't kill black teens, BEING a black teen in America invites these kinds of things.
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#368 Mar 29 2012 at 10:32 PM Rating: Good
So the girlfriend's account is questionable, because obviously she would want to make Martin look innocent of any wrong doing, but Zimmerman's account isn't, despite the fact that he could possibly go to trial for murder if he doesn't make it seem like self defense? Riiiight.
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#369 Mar 30 2012 at 12:43 AM Rating: Good
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Gbaji, listen to the plain evidence we have from the call to the cops. It's in post 36 of this thread. It's only about 4 minutes long, and it tells us so much. Zimmerman calls up to report a "real suspicious guy" in a neighbourhood that has had a string of break-ins in it. He says the man " looks up to no good or he's on drugs or something, it's raining and he's just walking around, looking about"..."he's staring, looking at all the houses". (Martin is new to the area, he's on his cellphone which Zimmerman can't make out or doesn't describe, and he's on the way to or from a store to get snackfood.) Zimmerman says the guy "Looks black...he's wearing a dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants, and white tennis shoes". He can't describe ANYTHING else about the man at this point, because when Martin turns and comes towards him, ZImmerman confirms he is a black male, is "wearing a button on his shirt", "he's got his hand in his waistband", " he's in his late teens", "He's got something in his hands," (he can't tell what it is it's so dark. Presumably, this is Martin's cell phone.) He can give no other identifiers, which by the whole tone of the call, Zimmerman is eager to do. (In fact it's so dark that night, Zimmerman can't make out whether the pants Martin is wearing are jeans or not... one of the most basic wardrobe items and identifiers) Zimmerman makes clear that he's pegged the man as a burglar, by saying "These ****-holes always get away".

At this point, Zimmerman CANNOT see any tattoos or gold teeth. Nothing about Martin's appearance factors into Zimmerman's suspicions about him except that he's a strange man in a hoodie, walking alone at night in the rain, looking around instead of walking fast head-down through the rain.

The girlfriend's reported version says, and their phone call to each other might bear this out, that Martin asked "Why are you following me?" to the guy in the car, and getting no satisfactory response, he and the girlfriend decide he should get away from the car and lose it. Martin decides to walk quickly, his girlfriend urges him to run fast, which he does later when Zimmerman keeps following him, against repeated police suggestions not to follow, to park and wait for the police to get there.

Edited, Mar 30th 2012 3:30am by Aripyanfar
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#370 Mar 30 2012 at 3:03 AM Rating: Good
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Facts:
Man follows teen.
Continues to follow teen after it was suggested multiple times by authorities that he does not.
They get in an altercation where the man is not harmed significantly in any way.
Man shoots teen.
Gbaji is a troll.
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#371 Mar 30 2012 at 4:35 AM Rating: Good
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#372 Mar 30 2012 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I just realized Gbaji needs Varus. Without anyone to out stupid him, he looks pretty stupid.
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#373 Mar 30 2012 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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PigtailsOfDoom wrote:
So the girlfriend's account is questionable, because obviously she would want to make Martin look innocent of any wrong doing, but Zimmerman's account isn't, despite the fact that he could possibly go to trial for murder if he doesn't make it seem like self defense? Riiiight.


Zimmerman's account was given to the police in a statement immediately after the shooting and before he knew what the witnesses in the area reported. So when his account matches the other witness statements, it's a good bet that it's at least reasonably accurate. Remember, at that point he could not possibly have known if there was a witness to any one of the events that happened that night. Someone might have seen him following Martin. Someone might have seen the initial verbal altercation. Someone might have seen the initial physical altercation. He simply does not know, and so if he's lying, he managed to luck out by not having any witness who contradicted his version of events.

The girlfriends account is being filtered to us through the media (3rd hand in most cases). As far as I know, she has never written or recorded a full account and never signed any affidavits attesting to the veracity of said account, and thus is under pretty much zero legal consequences if said account ends out being false. There's a reason we require testimony to come in a sworn form. It's so that people can't just make stuff up without risk. Obviously that doesn't prove her account is wrong or Zimmerman's is right, but we should place far more weight on his than on hers.

Her account is also very very vague and was released (and perhaps even related for the first time) nearly a full month after the shooting. Plenty of time to invent a story which matches the known facts while suggesting a slightly different cause. I'll also point out that aside from the specific words exchanged, nothing in her account actually contradicts Zimmerman's. The two come face to face, words are exchanged, then a physical altercation breaks out. A lot of people seem to insist that her account "Blows Zimmerman's story out of the water", while not actually explaining how it does this. There's no freaking way you can tell me that someone on the other end of a phone call can tell if an earpiece if knocked out because the person wearing it was attacked, or did the attacking. She's free to believe that it fell out because Martin was attacked or pushed, but just like much of the arguments flowing around, it's pure speculation on her part.
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#374 Mar 30 2012 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Gbaji, listen to the plain evidence we have from the call to the cops. It's in post 36 of this thread. It's only about 4 minutes long, and it tells us so much.


I've listened to the whole audio several times now, and provided a fairly complete response to it pretty early in this thread.

Quote:
Zimmerman calls up to report a "real suspicious guy" in a neighbourhood that has had a string of break-ins in it. He says the man " looks up to no good or he's on drugs or something, it's raining and he's just walking around, looking about"..."he's staring, looking at all the houses". (Martin is new to the area, he's on his cellphone which Zimmerman can't make out or doesn't describe, and he's on the way to or from a store to get snackfood.) Zimmerman says the guy "Looks black...he's wearing a dark hoodie, like a grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants, and white tennis shoes". He can't describe ANYTHING else about the man at this point, because when Martin turns and comes towards him, ZImmerman confirms he is a black male, is "wearing a button on his shirt", "he's got his hand in his waistband", " he's in his late teens", "He's got something in his hands," (he can't tell what it is it's so dark. Presumably, this is Martin's cell phone.) He can give no other identifiers, which by the whole tone of the call, Zimmerman is eager to do.


I'm unsure why any of this is problematic. This is *exactly* what he's supposed to do. He's giving the police the best physical description of the subject possible. Let's not forget that it's dark and lightly raining at the time he calls.

Quote:
(In fact it's so dark that night, Zimmerman can't make out whether the pants Martin is wearing are jeans or not... one of the most basic wardrobe items and identifiers) Zimmerman makes clear that he's pegged the man as a burglar, by saying "These ****-holes always get away".


He's made it clear that he thinks the guy might be a burglar. Again, what's your point here? So now it's a crime to call the police if you see someone suspicious walking through your neighborhood?

Quote:
At this point, Zimmerman CANNOT see any tattoos or gold teeth.


So? First off, I made it clear that those are things I have not yet confirmed, so I'm not basing my arguments on them. I've certainly never argued that Zimmerman saw these things and thus decided Martin was up to no good.

Quote:
Nothing about Martin's appearance factors into Zimmerman's suspicions about him except that he's a strange man in a hoodie, walking alone at night in the rain, looking around instead of walking fast head-down through the rain.


Which is why Zimmerman never says that the guy's suspicious because of his appearance, or what clothes he's wearing. You're assuming that because he describes Martin's skin color and clothes that those things must be what makes him "look suspicious". But it was his actions and behavior that made Zimmerman think he was suspicious. Let's not forget that Zimmerman wasn't sure if Martin was black when he first called the cops. Strange for someone who is supposedly targeting Martin because of his race.


The relevance of those other things (gold teeth, tattoos, twitter name, online comments, suspensions at school) is to counter the perception that Martin was a squeeky clean kid who could not possibly have been doing anything wrong, and thus Zimmerman could not possibly have had a legitimate reason to think he was suspicious. If he's someone who's been suspended for having drug materials on him, and another time for having graffiti materials on him, and yet another time for having stolen goods on him, and seems to habitually be getting into places and things he's not supposed to be into, then this supports the idea that he might have been doing something while walking home from that store that Zimmerman could have legitimately viewed as suspicious.

Let's not forget that the entire case against Zimmerman basically rests on the assumption that Martin could not have been doing anything suspicious because he's such a good kid. But if our perception of him as a good kid isn't quite as correct as we were initially lead to believe, then perhaps we should re-assess our perception of the actions of Zimmerman. If Martin had originally been described as a troubled teen, currently on suspension from school, with a history of theft, drugs, and vandalism, and a healthy disregard for authority figures, wouldn't most people view this whole thing completely differently?

Public perception is fueling this. But that perception has been manipulated from day one to make them more supportive of Martin and more angry at Zimmerman. I'm just trying to cut through the allegations and claims and speculation and look just at what we know to be true and then assess the likelihood of the actual events that transpired.

Quote:
The girlfriend's reported version says, and their phone call to each other might bear this out, that Martin asked "Why are you following me?" to the guy in the car, and getting no satisfactory response, he and the girlfriend decide he should get away from the car and lose it. Martin decides to walk quickly, his girlfriend urges him to run fast, which he does later when Zimmerman keeps following him, against repeated police suggestions not to follow, to park and wait for the police to get there.


Sigh. I've mentioned this several times now. There is zero evidence from any statement that Zimmerman followed Martin while driving his car. Why do people keep assuming that he followed him in his car? You've even gone so far with this fantasy as to invent a statement by police telling Zimmerman to park his car and wait for police.

Listen to the police tape. Zimmerman was clearly already parked when he made the call. Read the released statements from the girlfriend. She never says that Martin is being followed by Zimmerman while Zimmerman is in the car. And both Zimmerman's statement and the girlfriends seem to support that the first time either of them spoke, they were both on foot.

Where are you getting this? Why do people keep repeating this? It's crazy. Even after I point out that this is just made up and there's no evidence of this at all, it keeps getting repeated over and over. Like somehow in your minds, if Zimmerman is following in his car, it makes him a more sinister threat, so you pretend that's what he must have done. Stop putting the cart before the horse. Stop repeating things purely because they make the position you've taken seem stronger. Look at the facts. Look at the statements from various people involved in the events. Judge *only* on those things.


I'm just asking people to use their brains here.
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#375 Mar 30 2012 at 7:10 PM Rating: Decent
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We are using our brains Zimmerman left safety to chase down some one that he deemed up to something instead of waiting for the police to show up and do it. **** if he had just went by called the cops and kept going with out following him, Martin would not had ran with a good chance of still being in the area when the cops showed up. Nothing in the law gives people the right to follow another person just because they are out of place. Stand your ground doesn't protect him since again he left safety and sought danger. The simple fact that Zimmerman was told by the police more then once to break off and take no further action is enough to place him in doubt. The only exception the law gives to willingly placing your self in to a situation were deadly force might be needed to defend your life is if their is clear and president danger to the life of another, i.e witnessing a assault.

Long and short is Zimmerman left his car of his own free will and against the advise of the dispatcher so his right to defend him self when again willingly confronting someone is not protected. He was no cop had no right to even question Martin as to what he was doing. All he could do legally was call the police and report it and keep going.
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#376 Mar 30 2012 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
I'm just asking people to use their brains here.


Ironic, considering your inability to do the same.
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#377 Mar 30 2012 at 8:28 PM Rating: Good
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Also note where this took place--it was down a concrete path. Zimmerman's account was that he got out to check a street sign and was jumped when he turned his back. I'd really like to know how they got down that path, because I doubt Martin dragged him there. More likely is that Martin went down the path because he was afraid of the car following him, knowing it couldn't, and then Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and continued on foot.

Who initiated the conflict at that point, I don't care. But you'd be an absolute dumbass if, in that situation, you didn't assume the person following you wasn't a threat. They've gone well past the point of acceptable disbelief.
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#378 Mar 30 2012 at 9:35 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Also note where this took place--it was down a concrete path. Zimmerman's account was that he got out to check a street sign and was jumped when he turned his back. I'd really like to know how they got down that path, because I doubt Martin dragged him there. More likely is that Martin went down the path because he was afraid of the car following him, knowing it couldn't, and then Zimmerman got out of the vehicle and continued on foot.


Holy f'ing ****! Really? His car was parked and idling. You can hear it in the **** tape of the call to police. You can then hear him getting out of his car. He was not chasing Martin with his **** car! He was parked and watching Martin walking up the street towards him. Martin ran into the complex. Zimmerman followed him (no one is denying this). Zimmerman lost track of Martin and started walking along the concrete path back to his car. That's when Martin approached him from behind, some words were said, and then (according to Zimmerman) he was attacked by Martin.

Zimmerman at no point said he "got out of his car to check a street sign". There was some information early on that said that Zimmerman said he turned to look at a street sign right before being attacked. But once again, your own idiotic assumption that he was chasing Martin while in his car makes you adopt yet another stupid assumption.

He was not in his car. He was following Martin on foot. If he turned to check a street sign right before being attacked, he was on foot when he did it. WTF? You and your stupid bit with the **** car. I've asked you repeatedly to provide a source for your claim that Zimmerman chased Martin while in his car. Yet instead of doing so, or dropping the assumption, you just keep heaping more and more stupid assumptions on top of that one.

Do you realize that once you drop the assumption that Zimmerman was in his car, every single part of the timeline makes sense? Wow. Just wow.

Quote:
Who initiated the conflict at that point, I don't care.


So you're saying that even if Martin did initiate the fight, it would still mean that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense? Maybe you are so wrapped up in your false outrage to think this matters, but to most people, and to the law itself, this is the single critical point. If Martin initiated the fight, then he is at fault, and Zimmerman acted in self defense. If Zimmerman started it, then he can't claim self defense.

Quote:
But you'd be an absolute dumbass if, in that situation, you didn't assume the person following you wasn't a threat. They've gone well past the point of acceptable disbelief.


Disbelief in what? If Martin ran away from Zimmerman initially (with Zimmerman following on foot), then Zimmerman loses Martin and heads back to his car, and then Martin comes back and attacks Zimmerman, then your entire claim fails completely. There's nothing inconsistent or outside the range of acceptable belief there. If Martin was legitimately scared that Zimmerman was some kind of crazy person coming after him, why did he circle back around? Why did he come after Zimmerman?


What you should be finding increasingly hard to believe is that Martin acted purely out of legitimate fear of Zimmerman. You keep inventing details to make this seem more likely, but they aren't true. If Martin really thought that Zimmerman was a criminal stalking him and intending him harm, why not call 911 himself? Martin's actions are *not* consistent with a scared kid just trying to get home from the store without being attacked by some crazed stalker. His actions are very consistent with a hoodlum roaming the area looking for something to steal, realizing someone has spotted him, and then circling back to punish that person for daring to interrupt his criminal activities.


I fully admit that's speculation on my part. But it fits far more with the evidence and information we have than any theory I'm hearing you toss out. You just keep trying to poke holes in Zimmerman's account, but you do so by assuming things that have not been established, and all the while refuse to account for Martin's actions. He clearly was not just walking straight home, right? He clearly could have simply run away but didn't. He clearly could have called the police if he really thought his life was in danger, but didn't. At what point do you conclude that the assumptions you've built up about Martin might just be wrong? Pretty much nothing he was doing that night fits with the claim that he was just an innocent kid trying to get home from the store.


And once you abandon the assumption that Martin was just an innocent kid trying to get home, Zimmerman's story becomes much more believable. It's your own irrational insistence on sticking with completely unfounded assumptions that cause you to do this. Drop the assumptions and look at the facts. They tell a completely different story than the one you want to hear.

Edited, Mar 30th 2012 8:38pm by gbaji
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#379 Mar 30 2012 at 9:36 PM Rating: Good
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You can hear him getting out of the car, but you can't hear the racial slur?

Smiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lolSmiley: lol
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#380 Mar 30 2012 at 9:43 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
You can hear him getting out of the car, but you can't hear the racial slur?


This is strange because I'm 99% certain that a few pages ago you were making the point that because Zimmerman got out of his car to chase Martin that meant he was the aggressor and couldn't claim self defense. Now you're claiming he never got out of his car at all? Your argument is all over the **** place.

It's pretty obvious that you're starting with a conclusion and then just twisting any information you hear and changing your argument around in order to support that conclusion. If you'd stop doing that, and just look at the facts first and *then* draw a conclusion, you should see what a monumental idiot you've been for the past week.

I wont hold my breath though.
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#381 Mar 30 2012 at 10:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Boy you you got ran over by the short bus didn't you.
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#382 Mar 30 2012 at 10:47 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
It's pretty obvious that you're starting with a conclusion and then just twisting any information you hear and changing your argument around in order to support that conclusion. If you'd stop doing that, and just look at the facts first and *then* draw a conclusion, you should see what a monumental idiot you've been for the past week.


Can we ban for stupid yet?
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gbaji wrote:
You guys keep tossing facts out there like they mean something.


#383 Mar 30 2012 at 11:40 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
This is strange because I'm 99% certain that a few pages ago you were making the point that because Zimmerman got out of his car to chase Martin that meant he was the aggressor and couldn't claim self defense. Now you're claiming he never got out of his car at all? Your argument is all over the **** place.


No, that has never been my argument. Nor have I ever once seen that posted in this thread. You're just an imbecile.

And no, that is not my claim. At all. It's a straw man, and a pathetic one at that.

What I have argued is quite simple, and has not changed.

1. Zimmerman followed Martin in his truck for some at least, 2 minutes, proven by 911 call.
2. At some point, Zimmerman exited his vehicle.
3. A fight between Martin and Zimmerman occurred.
4. Martin was shot.

What we don't know is:
1. How far down the footpath the fight occurred.
2. Who started the fight.

An answer to one could help to discredit Zimmerman's story, but could otherwise have no bearing on it.
An answer to the second could also help discredit Zimmerman's story, but due to his prior actions (stalking Martin), invalidates self-defense even if Martin initiated the attack. Why? Because Martin had a perfectly legitimate reason to fear for his life at that point. A truck follows you for several minutes, you manage to lose it, then it parks right near where you are hiding and a man exits it (with a weapon that is potentially visible)?

I'd be ******* terrified.
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#384 Mar 31 2012 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
BrownDuck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
It's pretty obvious that you're starting with a conclusion and then just twisting any information you hear and changing your argument around in order to support that conclusion. If you'd stop doing that, and just look at the facts first and *then* draw a conclusion, you should see what a monumental idiot you've been for the past week.


Can we ban for stupid yet?


If gbaji got banned, we'd have no one to argue with.
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#385 Mar 31 2012 at 1:19 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
1. Zimmerman followed Martin in his truck for some at least, 2 minutes, proven by 911 call.
2. At some point, Zimmerman exited his vehicle.
3. A fight between Martin and Zimmerman occurred.
4. Martin was shot.


That much I agree with. The racial slur I wasn't sure about, so I slowed it down and looped the section in question. To me, it's clearly "punks" , not "coons". I've included a link to it below.

If you don't trust just anything you find on the web, it's easy enough to make your own copy using free software. I used Net Video Hunter http://netvideohunter.com/ to grab the video. Then RZ MP3 http://www.rzaudioconverter.com/ to convert the video to MP3. You can then slow it down with Audacity http://audacity.sourceforge.net/ .

Note: I used Cool Edit Pro, because it introduces less artifacts that Audacity, but Cool Edit isn't free, or even made anymore.

Here's the link to the audio. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/70187986/FPobvious.mp3
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#386 Apr 01 2012 at 8:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
If gbaji got banned, we'd have no one to argue with.


I'll jump in for a bit, I personally feel this is a tragedy of circumstance and I have more sympathy for the Martin family than Zimmerman simply due to the fact that Trayvon was killed & Zimmerman wasnt.

However,.... the thing I take issue with & what saddens me most is the apparent need for division & hatred to be built on a terrible foundation like this.

How will that help anyone ? there have been apparent inconsistencies coming from both sides and unless you were there, you really dont know what happened.

Troubling to me is: 1) how Zimmermans "he looks black" was played over and over out of context without the previous question by the dispatcher on the phone
"is he black, hispanic or white"

2) that initial coverage all indicated Martin was "just walking down the street" when now it appears he was maybe cutting between the houses (which at night is generally called "Prowling")- (& it wouldnt be uncommon for a gated community HOA to have "stick to the lighted paths" in their CC&R)- (which Trayvon admittedly might not have known)

3) no mention of the fact that Zimmerman was handcuffed & taken in by police following incident.... (which subsequently provided the video showing no apparent injuries to Zimmerman) - (although he may have been cleaned up by paramedics)

4) the insistence on calling Zimmerman "White" although he speaks spanish (& english) & apparently identifies himself as hispanic at least some of the time (even though anyone in the know understands that racial harmony between Black & Brown is no better than White & Black)- (especially in places like Calif. Fla. AZ where immigrant and minority communities are struggling side by side) This fact especially points to an agenda of divisiveness.

5) Would Zimmerman be allowed to carry "less than lethal" weapon in that area & capacity ? some areas restrict it differently than firearms due to its relatively recent appearance. (and different training & liability issues)

6) the consistent use of non-contemporary photos of both parties...... long after newer ones were found . Anyone not willing to admit that these photos portray Martin innocently & Zimmerman like a thug are being dishonest. (& represents at the least very poor, if not unethical journalism)

My belief is that Trayvon Martin was a young man who MAY have been on the wrong path & experimenting with thuggery, drugs & petty crime & had a very good chance that he would straighten himself out and leave that behind as he matured (just like millions before him have) ( including me)

And that Zimmerman MAY HAVE BEEN an overzealous wanna-be who would have never had a problem like this if the two hadnt met when & where they did....but who ultimately had good intentions and not much help from other residents of his gated community. (which obviously is a place for fearful or at least security conscious people)
This type of situation is exactly why most neighborhood patrols, Guardian Angels, & in fact most police, travel at the least in pairs.

What if Martin would have waved or nodded at Zimmerman & talked to him instead of trying to evade him ? what if Zimmerman would have felt a little more comfortable in confronting him ? we'll never know unfortunately.

Here in So. Cal we had an incident, right after this one, in which a hispanic victim falsly claimed he was robbed at gunpoint by 2 blacks (immigrants are routinely targeted by gangs due to their own desire to avoid the authorities) (he also maybe felt he would get a faster response if he mentioned Guns).............. unfortunately this resulted in one of the alleged perpetrators being fatally shot by the police, & the robbery victim being arrested for manslaughter.

Just another tragedy of our times........



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#387 Apr 02 2012 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Terrifyingspeed wrote:
Quote:
If gbaji got banned, we'd have no one to argue with.


I'll jump in for a bit, I personally feel this is a tragedy of circumstance and I have more sympathy for the Martin family than Zimmerman simply due to the fact that Trayvon was killed & Zimmerman wasnt.

However,.... the thing I take issue with & what saddens me most is the apparent need for division & hatred to be built on a terrible foundation like this.

How will that help anyone ? there have been apparent inconsistencies coming from both sides and unless you were there, you really dont know what happened.

Troubling to me is: 1) how Zimmermans "he looks black" was played over and over out of context without the previous question by the dispatcher on the phone
"is he black, hispanic or white"

2) that initial coverage all indicated Martin was "just walking down the street" when now it appears he was maybe cutting between the houses (which at night is generally called "Prowling")- (& it wouldnt be uncommon for a gated community HOA to have "stick to the lighted paths" in their CC&R)- (which Trayvon admittedly might not have known)

3) no mention of the fact that Zimmerman was handcuffed & taken in by police following incident.... (which subsequently provided the video showing no apparent injuries to Zimmerman) - (although he may have been cleaned up by paramedics)

4) the insistence on calling Zimmerman "White" although he speaks spanish (& english) & apparently identifies himself as hispanic at least some of the time (even though anyone in the know understands that racial harmony between Black & Brown is no better than White & Black)- (especially in places like Calif. Fla. AZ where immigrant and minority communities are struggling side by side) This fact especially points to an agenda of divisiveness.

5) Would Zimmerman be allowed to carry "less than lethal" weapon in that area & capacity ? some areas restrict it differently than firearms due to its relatively recent appearance. (and different training & liability issues)

6) the consistent use of non-contemporary photos of both parties...... long after newer ones were found . Anyone not willing to admit that these photos portray Martin innocently & Zimmerman like a thug are being dishonest. (& represents at the least very poor, if not unethical journalism)

My belief is that Trayvon Martin was a young man who MAY have been on the wrong path & experimenting with thuggery, drugs & petty crime & had a very good chance that he would straighten himself out and leave that behind as he matured (just like millions before him have) ( including me)

And that Zimmerman MAY HAVE BEEN an overzealous wanna-be who would have never had a problem like this if the two hadnt met when & where they did....but who ultimately had good intentions and not much help from other residents of his gated community. (which obviously is a place for fearful or at least security conscious people)
This type of situation is exactly why most neighborhood patrols, Guardian Angels, & in fact most police, travel at the least in pairs.

What if Martin would have waved or nodded at Zimmerman & talked to him instead of trying to evade him ? what if Zimmerman would have felt a little more comfortable in confronting him ? we'll never know unfortunately.

Here in So. Cal we had an incident, right after this one, in which a hispanic victim falsly claimed he was robbed at gunpoint by 2 blacks (immigrants are routinely targeted by gangs due to their own desire to avoid the authorities) (he also maybe felt he would get a faster response if he mentioned Guns).............. unfortunately this resulted in one of the alleged perpetrators being fatally shot by the police, & the robbery victim being arrested for manslaughter.

Just another tragedy of our times........



Soooo, you just thought you add to the division and hatred by passing your own judgement on the two individuals and leaving behind yet more gossip in hopes of bolstering that opinion?

A teen was shot. A man shot him. Those are the facts.

This particular circumstance is divisive as it's exactly the type of scenario that sends out a big "told you so" to short-sighted conservative lawmakers.
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#388 Apr 02 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
A teen was shot. A man shot him. Those are the facts.
A person was shot by another person. The age of the individuals is an irrelevant fact. Just being a teen doesn't make him automatically innocent of any or all wrongdoings should they exist, just like being an adult doesn't make one automatically guilty.
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#389 Apr 02 2012 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: lol Like there's no short-sighted liberal law makers.
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#390 Apr 02 2012 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Apparently, independent forensic experts have been confirming that the screams on the 911 calls do not match Zimmerman's voice. The lawyer's stance has been that they were his client's, not Martin's.

I dunno how Florida's legal system works, but the experts in question confirmed that their results should be admissible evidence in court.

Also of note, this wasn't some "expert" in his garage. "Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence" is the one giving the testimony to the news station.
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#391 Apr 02 2012 at 11:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch wrote:
Smiley: lol Like there's no short-sighted liberal law makers.

I was speaking based on the assumption that it was the conservatives that voted in the 'stand your ground' legislation. That might be a bad assumption, still I never claimed there were no short-sighted liberal law-makers. You mis-comprehend sir.

It's monday though, no one should be thinking too hard.






Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 7:14pm by Elinda
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#392 Apr 02 2012 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Elinda wrote:
A teen was shot. A man shot him. Those are the facts.
A person was shot by another person. The age of the individuals is an irrelevant fact. Just being a teen doesn't make him automatically innocent of any or all wrongdoings should they exist, just like being an adult doesn't make one automatically guilty.
Geese, I didn't delineate between relevant or not - you did. It is a fact that a teen was shot.

Besides, in the eyes of the law a child and an adult are two very different things. I bet if it ever were to go to court, the fact that the victim is a minor is relevant.






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#393 Apr 02 2012 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
What I have argued is quite simple, and has not changed.

1. Zimmerman followed Martin in his truck for some at least, 2 minutes, proven by 911 call.


I'm going to ask again if you've actually listened to the call Zimmerman made (which was *not* a 911 call btw). He is very clearly sitting in his car while parked the whole time. Martin walks toward him during the call. That can't possibly happen if Zimmerman is following Martin in his car. Listen to the background noise. He's not in a moving vehicle during the call.

Please stop repeating blatantly false information. That's all I'm asking here. If something is speculation, then say it's speculation. Don't insist that it's a "fact".

Quote:
2. At some point, Zimmerman exited his vehicle.
3. A fight between Martin and Zimmerman occurred.
4. Martin was shot.


Yup. This stuff you got right.

Quote:
What we don't know is:
1. How far down the footpath the fight occurred.
2. Who started the fight.


Correct. Actually "we" don't know this (how far down the path it occurred). Presumably the police do, since they know exactly where the fight occurred, where the shot was fired, where Martin's body was found, and where Zimmerman's vehicle was in relation to that.

Quote:
An answer to one could help to discredit Zimmerman's story...


I think the fact that you are searching for things to discredit Zimmerman's story speaks volumes about your perception of this. You should look at all information you can and *then* decide if the whole of that information supports Zimmerman's account, discredits it, or doesn't affect it at all.

Quote:
An answer to the second could also help discredit Zimmerman's story, but due to his prior actions (stalking Martin), invalidates self-defense even if Martin initiated the attack. Why? Because Martin had a perfectly legitimate reason to fear for his life at that point. A truck follows you for several minutes, you manage to lose it, then it parks right near where you are hiding and a man exits it (with a weapon that is potentially visible)?


Again, your problem is you're looking only for evidence which might discredit Zimmerman's story (and speculating wildly about events which *could* do so). You're not looking at the large volume of facts we have which directly support the story Zimmerman told police.

And you still seem to want to insert this assumption that Zimmerman followed Martin in his car (stalked even!), apparently as a means to justify Martin's actions and condemn Zimmerman's no matter what the actual facts are. First off, even if Zimmerman had followed Martin in his car, that does not give Martin a legal reason to attack Zimmerman. If he did that, he is at fault and Zimmerman's actions were absolutely self defense. Secondly, you don't even have anything beyond wild speculation that this supposed stalking of Martin while Zimmerman was in his car happened.

I've asked you several times to provide some evidence or source for this claim. You have still refused to do so. Zimmerman's call does *not* support that claim. If anything it refutes it. Do you have *anything* to support your claim that Zimmerman followed Martin while in his car? Because a whole **** of a lot of your argument seems to rest on this claim, but I've yet to see any reason to assume that this happened.

Do you have any evidence to support that claim?

Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 1:59pm by gbaji
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#394 Apr 02 2012 at 3:07 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
Apparently, independent forensic experts have been confirming that the screams on the 911 calls do not match Zimmerman's voice. The lawyer's stance has been that they were his client's, not Martin's.

I dunno how Florida's legal system works, but the experts in question confirmed that their results should be admissible evidence in court.

Also of note, this wasn't some "expert" in his garage. "Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence" is the one giving the testimony to the news station.


If that does turn out to be correct, it would be a big piece of evidence. However, I wouldn't leap to conclusions either. I'm not an audio forensics expert, but it seems like an easy counter for why there's only a 48% match between the screaming heard in the 911 call and Zimmerman's voice in the call to dispatchers is because Zimmerman's nose was broken (or at least injured sufficiently to bleed) between the two. Also, he was lying on the ground with someone on top of him whilst allegedly screaming. Both of those can significantly alter the sound of someone's voice.

The second expert's methods were just plain moronic IMO. It couldn't have been Zimmerman because it sounded like a teen screaming? I've heard some big guys scream like little girls before.
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#395 Apr 02 2012 at 3:11 PM Rating: Good
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"Are you following him"
"Yeah"
"Okay, we don't need you to do that."
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#397 Apr 02 2012 at 3:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda wrote:
Besides, in the eyes of the law a child and an adult are two very different things.
In Florida there are "Close-In-Age" exemptions. Martin was 17, so he'd more than likely be considered an adult in the eyes of the law.
Elinda wrote:
I bet if it ever were to go to court, the fact that the victim is a minor is relevant.
That's a chump's bet. Of course they are. They'd beat it into the ground in an attempt to differentiate their client from their opponent. By constantly referring to to the victim as a child you're subtly implying that there is an automatic innocence associated with it. The same way during murder trials the defense will constantly try to mention how the accused is an active member of a community or a family man/woman, son, daughter, etc etc. Just because they're true doesn't mean they make a real difference on the activities that got them there.

Edited, Apr 2nd 2012 5:26pm by lolgaxe
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#398 Apr 02 2012 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
"Are you following him"
"Yeah"
"Okay, we don't need you to do that."


This was asked after Zimmerman got out of the car.
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#399 Apr 02 2012 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
"Are you following him"
"Yeah"
"Okay, we don't need you to do that."


After he got out of his car and after Martin had already run off. Are you seriously arguing that Martin was justified to run away from Zimmerman because Zimmerman chose to follow him after he ran?


Was there a time machine involved in your version of events?
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#400 Apr 02 2012 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
After he got out of his car and after Martin had already run off. Are you seriously arguing that Martin was justified to run away from Zimmerman because Zimmerman chose to follow him after he ran?


Of course he was justified to flee someone pursuing him. are you seriously arguing he was not justified fleeing from someone (who is not a police officer) who had been following him in a car, and was now after him on foot. Regardless of what he was doing he is completely justified to flee.

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#401 Apr 02 2012 at 5:43 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Are you seriously arguing that Martin was justified to run away from Zimmerman because Zimmerman chose to follow him after he ran?


And once again you make a fool of yourself.
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