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#27 Nov 27 2011 at 11:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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We have the technology to do it.

It would be very expensive and there is very little value in going. Its only value is in being a goal. What we should really be doing is building orbital spacecraft and getting really good at building things in space. Start mining the moon for materials, build orbital factories etc. Going to Mars gets us almost nothing until we have the technology base to exploit whatever is there. You make something up there profitable and our space tech will go through a boom similar to computers. We are very capable of making very good spaceships given a couple decades of real interest from big corps.

When you can make factories in space and gather materials from celestial bodies there is nowhere you can't go.
#28 Nov 28 2011 at 12:11 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Does this mean we need to rely on the Russians for all our future endeavors? That's pretty scary.


Why is that scary, exploring other planets and space in general is something we should do together with many many nations. We should pool our resources and send humans into space, not russians, or americans, humans. It should be a planetary endeavor, not a race to see who can do it first with the least amount of **** ups.

I think events such as this should not have borders and flags, the exploration of space should be a Human Initiative, not specific countries.



(That and the US, Russia, ESA, and China have been pretty much working from the same program book for the last 20 years already anyway.)
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#29 Nov 28 2011 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Going to Mars gets us almost nothing until we have the technology base to exploit whatever is there


Its called mining, and we have been doing it for thousands of years on earth, I think we are pretty good at exploiting stuff here, and since its the same **** in a new town id feel confident in our ability to exploit stuff on mars as well. **** we can get robots to do most of it for us.
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#30 Nov 28 2011 at 12:17 AM Rating: Decent
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rdmcandie wrote:
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Going to Mars gets us almost nothing until we have the technology base to exploit whatever is there


Its called mining, and we have been doing it for thousands of years on earth, I think we are pretty good at exploiting stuff here, and since its the same sh*t in a new town id feel confident in our ability to exploit stuff on mars as well. sh*t we can get robots to do most of it for us.


The fact that you think we can get robots to do most of the mining for us just shows how little you know about mining.
#31 Nov 28 2011 at 12:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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The biggest thing about mining, is what do we really need that would be worth the expense to go get it. Once in space itself, oxygen and water and other required elements for life support become valuable, but only insofar as to support out of space presence. The real draw for space mining would be the rare elements we lack, such as the Helium III on the moon, and theoretically easily accessable elements in the asteroid fields. A giant strike of platinum for example would do very bad things to the jewlry industry, but would be a huge benifit to the manufacturing and electrical industries. Helium III is theoretically ideal for use in a fusion reactor. If we had suitble large quantities of helium III at our disposal right now, combined with the new laser from the national ignition laboratory, we could most likely sustain a working fusion reaction. Building your reactor to work with the rarest isotope on the planet at the moment isn't really a viable solution.

Other than that, the really abundant iron, steel, titanium, etc, we can get on earth, or recycle easier than it would be to get them from space. Then if you do get them, you really have to ahve some way to at least partially refine whatever it is so you aren't shipping back huge piles of worthless materials. That means some form of space smelter, probably on the moon, which introduces temperature variables, material handling issues, scale issues, etc. Once we have one up and running, we can then start producing materials for construction in orbit. That won't happen though until there is an easy way to get material up out of our atmosphere. A space tower or sky hook, some sort of starwars style imposible repulsorlift shuttle, beaming, what have you. Right now it costs roughly (and there are alot of variables here so you can argue the numbers +/- considerably either way) about $3,000 to move 1 ton of material from new york to london. It costs the space program about $10,000,000 to move 1 ton of material about 900 miles into orbit. Until we can get costs down to where it is practical to move large volumes of material up the gravety well, we aren't going to see large scale mining in space unfortunatly.

My money is on the skyhook personally...
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#32 Nov 28 2011 at 7:03 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
ArexLovesPie wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
So, which multiple, significant technological challenge did I miss here?


I don't think finding and training a crew of say 5 people would be able to psychologically handle such a journey. Not unless they can cut the time of travel down significantly. Eight months is a long long time to be confined to a certain space, even if it does allow for ample movement. I have faith in getting to Mars with technology, my faith in humanity is the lacking part.

Well we can compare it to time spent at the ISS or other previous space stations. I don't know offhand how long 'nauts stay up there.

IIRC, it's something like 18 months. Sometimes longer.
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#33 Nov 28 2011 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
The biggest thing about mining, is what do we really need that would be worth the expense to go get it.

Unobtanium.

Ya know, in Avatar, did they ever mention what unobtanium was used for?

I guess I'd rather see the governments or international orgs exploring the cosmos, getting things charted and inventoried and what-not, before the corps go in and start staking claims and exploiting resources.
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#34 Nov 28 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Ya know, in Avatar, did they ever mention what unobtanium was used for?

It's the primary component in MacGuffin manufacturing.
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#35 Nov 28 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Ya know, in Avatar, did they ever mention what unobtanium was used for?

It's the primary component in MacGuffin manufacturing.

It's for making profits.
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#36 Nov 28 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Elinda wrote:
Ya know, in Avatar, did they ever mention what unobtanium was used for?

It's the primary component in MacGuffin manufacturing.

It's for making profits.

I have profits on my x-mas list.
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#37 Nov 28 2011 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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something we should do together with many many nations. We should pool our resources and send humans into space, not russians, or americans, humans.


Just like Spain, Britain, and France pulled their resources to explore the new world! I'm sure we can do it!!
It'll be the New Age of Enlightenment; full of peace and harmony; just like the old Age of Enlightenment, right!?
lol
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#38 Nov 28 2011 at 11:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Yes and we used to be tribal and war over small pockets of land all the time, then we lived in communities and would war with neighboring communities for land, and so on and so forth. Every time we did we shrunk the amount of land claims. Sometimes we did this through War and taking land by force, other times we took land democratically. I think it is a very very likely chance that when humans do reach the time where we can realistically explore and occupy planets that we will have to become one. We would all need to represent our presence in the universe together.

Essentially Earth is one of (unknown) nations in the (giant ***) universe. Just like Britain, France, and Spain were nations in the (giant *** at the time) world.

that of course requires you to believe that there is other life forms that have reached or surpassed our ability to explore and travel in space. We may never find life anywhere, the % chance that created us is pretty small, but space is pretty big, and even with a small small % of infinite is pretty hard to ignore.
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#39 Nov 29 2011 at 12:16 AM Rating: Default
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I'm just saying; the last century was actually the most enlightened, educated, technologically advanced time in history..
and it was also the BLOODIEST.

I am DONE with the delusion that human beings are suddenly going wake up and start singing about sunshine and lolipops. What reason does any truly rational person have to ever think that? I'll tell you the reason: DENIAL.
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#40 Nov 29 2011 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
I'm just saying; the last century was actually the most enlightened, educated, technologically advanced time in history..
and it was also the BLOODIEST.

I am DONE with the delusion that human beings are suddenly going wake up and start singing about sunshine and lolipops. What reason does any truly rational person have to ever think that? I'll tell you the reason: DENIAL.

I've been saying for a long time that humans and our "civilization" are a failed path, and the sooner we eliminate ourselves and let the planet come up with something else, the better.
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#41 Nov 29 2011 at 7:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
I'm just saying; the last century was actually the most enlightened, educated, technologically advanced time in history..
and it was also the BLOODIEST.

I am DONE with the delusion that human beings are suddenly going wake up and start singing about sunshine and lolipops. What reason does any truly rational person have to ever think that? I'll tell you the reason: DENIAL.

I've been saying for a long time that humans and our "civilization" are a failed path, and the sooner we eliminate ourselves and let the planet come up with something else, the better.
***** that. If we're going, I say we take the planet with us.
#42 Nov 29 2011 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
I'm just saying; the last century was actually the most enlightened, educated, technologically advanced time in history..
and it was also the BLOODIEST.

I am DONE with the delusion that human beings are suddenly going wake up and start singing about sunshine and lolipops. What reason does any truly rational person have to ever think that? I'll tell you the reason: DENIAL.
You're full of **** Kelvy.

If you thought humans were going to 'suddenly wake up' and be a different species you were indeed fooling yourself.

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#43 Nov 29 2011 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
something we should do together with many many nations. We should pool our resources and send humans into space, not russians, or americans, humans.


Just like Spain, Britain, and France pulled their resources to explore the new world! I'm sure we can do it!!
It'll be the New Age of Enlightenment; full of peace and harmony; just like the old Age of Enlightenment, right!?
lol
I'm with Kelvy. That's not to say it can't happen or won't, but it sure as **** won't be any time in our lifetime, or likely, our children's lifetime. Sure, nations may agree to work together, but when it comes time to rape the next planet and claim the spoils, they'll all go back to bickering. No, humanity is a ways off from being able to completely work together on this.
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#44 Nov 29 2011 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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You're full of sh*t Kelvy.

If you thought humans were going to 'suddenly wake up' and be a different species you were indeed fooling yourself.


Indeed I was fooling myself for over half of my life :) in thinking that some great spiritual awakening would happen if I just like.. meditated enough or something..
I think that most people are naturally deluded with their own "or something".

Couple this with my long held belief that we are created beings; I cannot believe that this Creator made a mistake.. that it must all be part of some "plan"; thus causing me to reevaluate my entire belief system; ergo after some heavy study and searching I have concluded that Christianity is the ONLY belief that can possibly make ANY SENSE at ALL.
ALL other beliefs are pointless, ego-serving, placebos bent on catering to the flawed desires that MAKE this world so horrible and spoon-feeding the masses with the horrible lie that we will suddenly start loving each other by some random miracle of fate.

naturally I welcome anyone to adequately attempt to refute that statement, but I am not really trying to turn this into a religious argument.

(ok maybe I am)

Shalom!
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#45 Nov 29 2011 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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acprog wrote:
ArexLovesPie wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
So, which multiple, significant technological challenge did I miss here?


I don't think finding and training a crew of say 5 people would be able to psychologically handle such a journey. Not unless they can cut the time of travel down significantly. Eight months is a long long time to be confined to a certain space, even if it does allow for ample movement. I have faith in getting to Mars with technology, my faith in humanity is the lacking part.


A test just concluded in Russia where they kept guys in a simulator for a year and a half. They played a lot of Guitar Hero and were still able to email and such (albeit on quite a delay) with the outside world just as they would on a real mission. They're all fine.


Even though this was tested and seemed to work, there is a difference between doing a test on earth where if something happens they have the added comfort knowing that they unlock the doors and they're standing in liveable breathable space. My concern is how will they fair knowing that there isn't a way out, that literally you will spend however long it takes to get there cramped up in a tiny *** shuttle.
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#46 Nov 29 2011 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Quote:
You're full of sh*t Kelvy.

If you thought humans were going to 'suddenly wake up' and be a different species you were indeed fooling yourself.


Indeed I was fooling myself for over half of my life :) in thinking that some great spiritual awakening would happen if I just like.. meditated enough or something..
I think that most people are naturally deluded with their own "or something".

Couple this with my long held belief that we are created beings; I cannot believe that this Creator made a mistake.. that it must all be part of some "plan"; thus causing me to reevaluate my entire belief system; ergo after some heavy study and searching I have concluded that Christianity is the ONLY belief that can possibly make ANY SENSE at ALL.
ALL other beliefs are pointless, ego-serving, placebos bent on catering to the flawed desires that MAKE this world so horrible and spoon-feeding the masses with the horrible lie that we will suddenly start loving each other by some random miracle of fate.

naturally I welcome anyone to adequately attempt to refute that statement, but I am not really trying to turn this into a religious argument.

(ok maybe I am)

Shalom!

God! it's like I don't even know you anymore.

Religion is pointless to talk about in the context of space exploration because if it has an bearing at all on the topic it's well beyond our current understanding.

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#47 Nov 29 2011 at 12:28 PM Rating: Good
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
acprog wrote:
ArexLovesPie wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
So, which multiple, significant technological challenge did I miss here?


I don't think finding and training a crew of say 5 people would be able to psychologically handle such a journey. Not unless they can cut the time of travel down significantly. Eight months is a long long time to be confined to a certain space, even if it does allow for ample movement. I have faith in getting to Mars with technology, my faith in humanity is the lacking part.


A test just concluded in Russia where they kept guys in a simulator for a year and a half. They played a lot of Guitar Hero and were still able to email and such (albeit on quite a delay) with the outside world just as they would on a real mission. They're all fine.


Even though this was tested and seemed to work, there is a difference between doing a test on earth where if something happens they have the added comfort knowing that they unlock the doors and they're standing in liveable breathable space. My concern is how will they fair knowing that there isn't a way out, that literally you will spend however long it takes to get there cramped up in a tiny *** shuttle.

Can you hear me Major Tom?
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#48 Nov 29 2011 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Started reading a new webcomic the other day where the future is so sh*tty, that after 2/3 of the human population is wiped out after the apocalypse people say "***** it" and stay plugged into virtual reality 24/7. Most of them are going to die of cancer or starvation anyway, so why not?

Edited, Nov 29th 2011 3:38pm by catwho
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#49 Nov 29 2011 at 12:32 PM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
Stared reading a new webcomic the other day where the future is so sh*tty, that after 2/3 of the human population is wiped out after the apocalypse people say "***** it" and stay plugged into virtual reality 24/7. Most of them are going to die of cancer or starvation anyway, so why not?

Who maintains the servers?
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#50 Nov 29 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Good
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Personally, I think the jury is still out on humanity. Relatively speaking, the sample size in years is too small, and the rate of change too great, to really tell where we're going or who we'll be down the road.
#51 Nov 29 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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My concern is how will they fair knowing that there isn't a way out, that literally you will spend however long it takes to get there cramped up in a tiny *** shuttle.


Ask Russia, they have had several Cosmonauts spend months aboard Mir.
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