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#252 Dec 06 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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A strange link left lying around in a strange place should be considered suspicious. It could be armed and dangerous and should not be disturbed by the general public.

Someone call somebody.
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#253 Dec 06 2011 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
SillyS wrote:
ON TOPIC! I agree with points from all of you but as one wise poster early in the thread was getting at we need to clean up our inner cities. Alma is right about one thing, the fact that slavery is a root cause is pretty irrelevant. **** the fact that they're black is irrelevant. The problem is there's a large group of Americans stuck in the cycle of poverty.


It's hard to ignore the fact that the large group of Americans stuck in a cycle of poverty are African Americans, especially in an AA thread, dear.
Woosh, hun.

Omegavegeta wrote:
Sillys wrote:
Statistically black families are more likely to be born in an oppressive environment. (Premise)
Statistically black families are less fortunate then white families. (Conclusion)

Seems to follow, no? I admit that the argument still works if you change the premise to black families are more likely to have slave ancestors. The problem is this is only true because if your ancestors were slaves you're more likely to be born into an oppressive environment.


"Statistically" rather downplays these facts. Replace it with "The VAST majority of" in your example & the truth is a little harder to swallow, eh?
I actually meant to get rid of statistically, I thought about it when I suggested the premise change just below it; I suppose I forgot to go back. I hate when people use terminology like that in this context. You're right it's misleading, but you're still missing the point . . . sugar.
Omegavegeta wrote:
Sillys wrote:

That said racism is a problem, but not a financial one. To end racism the first step is probably to stop recognizing race as an important stat and for society to continue to reject racial bigots. (Actually I'm okay with rejecting all bigots.) Maybe one day someone smarter and more charismatic then myself will propose some sort of Final Solution to end all bigotry.


American society already pretty much ostracizes bigots, which is a good thing. However, because even the vast majority of whites do so they tend to think American is "post racial", making it easy for them to miss the fact that we're really not.

Edited, Dec 6th 2011 9:34am by Omegavegeta
I am aware. As a nation we ignored the growing problem in the inner cities for so long, at first due to racism, and now instead of admitting that our enlightened generation is accountable we're blaming our great great great grand pappy(Which is easy because he was a dick and is, ya'know, dead.)...dear.
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#254 Dec 06 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:

A strange link left lying around in a strange place should be considered suspicious. It could be armed and dangerous and should not be disturbed by the general public.

Someone call somebody.
Who you gonna call?
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#255 Dec 06 2011 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sara, your sig still has to go. Like, now.
#256 Dec 06 2011 at 10:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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If she's going to run around calling people "hun", I'd prefer that she just go.
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#257 Dec 06 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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I was annoyed that he called me dear and then continued with a condescending tone. What's wrong with my sig?
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#258 Dec 06 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's too **** long.
#259 Dec 06 2011 at 10:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu wrote:
It's too **** long.

What Joph said.
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#260 Dec 06 2011 at 10:44 AM Rating: Good
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This fanceh new format made my quotes bigger. In my day quote boxes were tight and if someone bashed your sig it meant a fight!

Edit: better?

Edited, Dec 6th 2011 11:49am by SillyXSara
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#261 Dec 06 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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SillyXSara wrote:
if someone bashed your sig it meant a fight!

Sounds good. Karma Kamp war... 1, 2, 3.. go!
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#262 Dec 06 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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SillyXSara wrote:
.....if someone bashed your sig it meant a fight!
That explains the brute link.

I wonder if my brute still lives????
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#263 Dec 06 2011 at 10:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
SillyXSara wrote:
if someone bashed your sig it meant a fight!

Sounds good. Karma Kamp war... 1, 2, 3.. go!

Need a pocket healer?
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#264 Dec 06 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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CHeal rotation!
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#265 Dec 06 2011 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
SillyXSara wrote:
.....if someone bashed your sig it meant a fight!
That explains the brute link.

I wonder if my brute still lives????
I should have checked before I deleted it . . .
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#266varusword75, Posted: Dec 06 2011 at 11:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Omega,
#267 Dec 06 2011 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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You realize you just agreed with Omega, right? Smiley: laugh
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#268 Dec 06 2011 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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SillyXSara wrote:

Edit: better?

Edited, Dec 6th 2011 11:49am by SillyXSara

Better than what? Still looks the same.
#269 Dec 06 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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SillyXSara wrote:
I was annoyed that he called me dear and then continued with a condescending tone.
I missed that. Sorryish.


SillyXSara wrote:
What's wrong with my sig?
There's more than one quote in it and therefore, too long.
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#270 Dec 06 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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Your face is too long.
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Mistress Darqflame wrote:
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#271 Dec 06 2011 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm sad. I put together a somewhat coherent response with enough holes that someone with a reasonable level of intelligence could of had some fun with it. I even provided obvious bait for derailment into a **** thread. All I get is someone repeating themselves but with my quotes in between and ******** about my awesome sig. Son, I'm so disappoint.
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Mistress Darqflame wrote:
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#272 Dec 06 2011 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Next time you want to failtroll, try not to wait until page six of a thread everyone is bored with.

Also, consider the fact that your annoying sig was the most interesting thing about your post.
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#273 Dec 06 2011 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Your sig is too long, you should shorten it.
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#274 Dec 06 2011 at 2:05 PM Rating: Default
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Vageta wrote:


Until I see a solution "better" than AA that addresses these issues, imma support AA. You might persuade me something else could be better, but you have yet to do so.


Nice try... quoting "better" doesn't change the definition.

Do you or do you not believe that there is a solution currently in progress (or in plan) that is better than AA in addressing the "generational wealth" gap/problem of which you speak?

If so, then what is it?

If so, but you don't know what it is, then please provide a solution that is better than AA.

If so, but you can't, then you believe that AA is currently the best solution. It's as simple as that. Own up to your words. If you want to retract them, then just be a man about it and retract them.

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#275 Dec 06 2011 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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*Sigh* Sorry I noticed most recent topics seemed to be somewhat serious and it seemed like some people might have legitimately gave a ****. I thought I might have a fun conversation while I was busy with my insomnia. I picked this one because it really is something I believe in and it was hardly a necrobump.
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Mistress Darqflame wrote:
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#276 Dec 06 2011 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Gbaji wrote:
Jesus F'ing Christ. Are you kidding me?


No; African Americans, the VAST majority whom are descendents of slaves, have been at an economic disadvantage in American society since slavery. This is a fact. If you'd like to dispute it, I'd love to see a cite.


No. But is that the "only reason"? When you use the phrase for no other reason, it means that "there is no other reason for this". When I then call you on this and you say "I'm not saying that's the only reason", you are either being deliberately misleading, or you have no freaking clue what the bolded phrase above means. Stop using that phrase if you aren't actually going to support a position that something is the "only reason". Can you do that? Pretty please?

Quote:
What's a bigger contributing factor to how much money someone can make over their lifetime? I thought you agreed it was whom their parents are? If their parents are African Americans, they've descended from slaves & their family has ALWAYS been at a disadvantage.


They could be descended from a whole bunch of different people. It's not the condition of your ancestors 150+ years ago that matters, it's the actions and choices of your parents right now which affect your own outcomes. I'm trying to get you to grasp that by focusing only on the whole "descendants of slaves" angle, you're ignoring the things people are doing right now that harm their own outcomes and the outcomes of their own children. And those actions and choices have vastly more weight.

Middle class professional black people are *also* descendants of slaves. Yet, amazingly, black kids who grow up in middle class neighborhoods have about the same rates of success as their white peers. The fact of their ancestors enslavement has very very little to do with success or failure today. But for some reason, you want to focus entirely on that one thing. That's the problem. You're ignoring the real factors that have far more relevance.

Quote:
AA addresses this disadvantage for a small percentage of African Americans whom can use it to pass on wealth to THEIR descendents, but I don't feel it goes far enough to solve the cause of that disadvantage.


It will never go far enough. Because just as you can't seem to look past the slave issue, neither can those who receive AA. They also ignore the mistakes they are making and blame every failure on racism. As a result, they don't take as much responsibility for their own lives are are less likely to ever actually make the changes they need to in order to actually give their children and grandchildren the better opportunities we all agree they should have.

The solution *is* the problem.

Quote:
It happened because George W. Bush doesn't care about African Americans & cares more for his rich white friends. I'm sorry, that can't be proven. What CAN be proven is Dubya's economic policies benefited rich white folks MUCH more than poor black folks, which caused the loss in wealth for blacks.


Lol. Can't see past your own propaganda, can you? I'd say that it happened because black folks, being most dependent on public assistance already, are most affected by any sort of reduction to those programs. You're basically trying to argue that someone failing to give money to someone else, is the same as taking that money away. I think that's a totally BS argument, but it's funny how often that crops up in liberal socio-economic ideology.


Quote:
I agree it didn't truly help, but for different reasons and motivations. Those programs were advertised and supported politically as programs designed to help poor and minority people become home owners, but in reality were just another way rich white folks in the banking industry were trying to make cash off of poor black folks whom couldn't afford the loans to begin with. I'm glad they got what was coming to them.


Ok. But the same folks who pushed for that also push for AA. Can't you see that maybe the intent of AA is for rich white folks to make cash off the poor black folks? It's the same thing. You're promising that by giving them things they can't afford themselves, we're somehow going to erase the socio-economic gap. But, just as the CRA stuff didn't help poor blacks in the long run, neither does AA. It's funny that you can see this in one case, but not in the other.

Giving people things they can't afford on their own doesn't help them. It doesn't free them. All it really accomplishes is to make them dependent on the people giving them the free stuff. It makes them slaves.

Quote:
Erm, the Bush tax cuts disproportionally give rich white folks tax breaks while poor black folks pretty much didn't benefit from them at all.


And the entire nation is divided into "rich white folks" and "poor black folks"? There are no rich black folks, or poor white folks? The Bush tax cuts affect everyone exactly the same regardless of their skin color. The issue is that there are disproportionately more poor black folks than poor white folks. But that's not the fault of the tax law. It's the fault of other factors. You're confusing cause and effect here. People who lay on train tracks are more affected when a train comes through, but the correct answer isn't to outlaw trains. Do you see how your logic is backwards?

Quote:
Furthermore, ending them puts more tax revenue into the system that can be used for other things that COULD benefit poor black folks.


We could give everyone a free pony too. But that doesn't mean we should. Tell me why it's a good thing to raise taxes in order to provide benefits for poor people. Even leaving the racist aspect of your argument aside, it's a bad idea. It's counter productive.


Quote:
Spoken like someone whom believes he's earned everything he has in life on his own & expects darkies to do the same.


I believe that anyone can succeed, if they try hard enough. I think that the counter argument is pretty weak when there are so many examples of people insisting that they can't succeed, while not actually trying. It has nothing to do with skin color either. There are plenty of lazy/poor white folks out there. And they're poor for the same reason. It has nothing to do with skin color. It has nothing to do with being descended from slaves. And frankly, it's a racist cop-out to use those as excuses.


Quote:
But guess what? Some of what you have is unearned. You got it for no other reason than you are a white person, living in a society run (mostly) by & for white people.


Stop using that phrase, if you don't actually mean to say that there are no other reasons. Ok? Please?


Quote:
You've got a MUCH better chance than an African American to: not be in jail, get an education, get a job, get credit, get access to healthcare, get a car, buy a house, get a "good" mortgage...and the list goes on.


All of which have nothing to do with race, and everything to do with statistical games. It has to do with poverty. If you start in poverty, you're more likely to have negative outcomes. Thus, things which make it harder to get out of poverty will tend to keep the poverty statistics similar with regard to racial makeup. Do you see how implementation of programs like AA actually work to keep that disproportionate racial representation intact?
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#277 Dec 06 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Stop using that phrase, if you don't actually mean to say that there are no other reasons. Ok? Please?

Do you literally want him to stop?
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#278 Dec 06 2011 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:


Quote:
But guess what? Some of what you have is unearned. You got it for no other reason than you are a white person, living in a society run (mostly) by & for white people.


Stop using that phrase, if you don't actually mean to say that there are no other reasons. Ok? Please?



I'd like to take a crack at interpretation here.

When the quoter says "Some of what you have is unearned", he or she is limiting or qualifying the rest of the thought. So, while there may be other reasons for a white boys wealth beside being white, there is a small portion of that wealth that can be said to be directly gained through the color of ones skin.

So, I don't think the phrase is incorrect. Or another way of saying this is that I think the phrase is a-ok in the context in which it is written.



Edited, Dec 6th 2011 10:04pm by Elinda
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#279 Dec 06 2011 at 3:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Do you or do you not believe that there is a solution currently in progress (or in plan) that is better than AA in addressing the "generational wealth" gap/problem of which you speak?

If so, then what is it?

If so, but you don't know what it is, then please provide a solution that is better than AA.

How ******* dumb are you? If he doesn't know what the solution is, then how in God's name is he supposed to provide it? Are you seriously this stupid?

Also how can you not spell the guy's name right despite the fact that it appears on every post, and that it'll automatically fill it in for you if you use the quote function?
#280 Dec 06 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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ITT: Majvio asking questions he already knows the answer to.
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#281 Dec 06 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Decent
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It snowed less than an inch today and my whole town is ******** itself out of fear, so I need an external target for my anger. Alma makes a fine punching bag.
#282 Dec 06 2011 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
It snowed less than an inch today and my whole town is sh*tting itself out of fear, so I need an external target for my anger. Alma makes a fine punching bag.


I can't imagine how most people would react to a 14 inch blizzard like I see yearly in North Dakota.
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#283 Dec 06 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Do you or do you not believe that there is a solution currently in progress (or in plan) that is better than AA in addressing the "generational wealth" gap/problem of which you speak?

If so, then what is it?

If so, but you don't know what it is, then please provide a solution that is better than AA.

How @#%^ing dumb are you? If he doesn't know what the solution is, then how in God's name is he supposed to provide it? Are you seriously this stupid?

Also how can you not spell the guy's name right despite the fact that it appears on every post, and that it'll automatically fill it in for you if you use the quote function?

You honestly think he knows how to use the functions of this forum? He just learned copy/pasta a couple of months ago and by god, he's gonna use it!
#284 Dec 06 2011 at 5:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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ArexLovesPie wrote:
Majivo wrote:
It snowed less than an inch today and my whole town is sh*tting itself out of fear, so I need an external target for my anger. Alma makes a fine punching bag.


I can't imagine how most people would react to a 14 inch blizzard like I see yearly in North Dakota.

We had one last spring. The city was basically shut down for a week.
#285 Dec 06 2011 at 5:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
Also how can you not spell the guy's name right despite the fact that it appears on every post, and that it'll automatically fill it in for you if you use the quote function?
It's the same herpaderp thing Varus does. They think it's disrespectful to purposely misspell someone's handle. The problem, as usual, with their tactics is that we've all generally graduated from grade school years ago so it isn't nearly as offensive as they think it is.
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#286 Dec 06 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Majivo wrote:
Also how can you not spell the guy's name right despite the fact that it appears on every post, and that it'll automatically fill it in for you if you use the quote function?
It's the same herpaderp thing Varus does. They think it's disrespectful to purposely misspell someone's handle. The problem, as usual, with their tactics is that we've all generally graduated from grade school years ago so it isn't nearly as offensive as they think it is.


I know you are but what am i.
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#287 Dec 06 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Majivo wrote:
It snowed less than an inch today and my whole town is sh*tting itself out of fear

In Southern California, that has the unique ability to make the roads hazardous like no where else. A condition they call "slippery".
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#288 Dec 06 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Majivo wrote:
It snowed less than an inch today and my whole town is sh*tting itself out of fear

In Southern California, that has the unique ability to make the roads hazardous like no where else. A condition they call "slippery".



'S dreadful.

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#289 Dec 06 2011 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
I took a dump today that was so dark, it was almost black. Then, when I flushed it, it smeared the recently clean toilet bowl.

I thought of Alma & Gbaji, then smiled.
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#290 Dec 06 2011 at 11:38 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Majivo wrote:
It snowed less than an inch today and my whole town is sh*tting itself out of fear

In Southern California, that has the unique ability to make the roads hazardous like no where else. A condition they call "slippery".


Psh, slippery is when you're driving on a 1/2 inch sheet of black ice and you're car is spinning down the interstate at 75 miles an hour. It's also that divine moment where you attain total expulsion of waste from two different orifices.

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#291 Dec 07 2011 at 5:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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A cold front is moving through here today. We're at our highest temp right now, which is 48 at 6:30 a.m. 100% chance of precipitation, which means by around 2 p.m. today, it's going to change to snow. Much panic will ensue. Whee!
#292 Dec 07 2011 at 6:46 AM Rating: Good
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11 degrees here and wet. This is awesome.
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#293 Dec 07 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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It's rainyish, with chance of flurries tonight.
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#294 Dec 07 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I agree with Affirmative Action. It doesn't just apply to blacks, but everyone.

My husband (who is white) actually got his first job because the State Department of Social Services office needed a white male to meet their quota, and in an economy where college graduates aren't finding jobs AA helped us out there. When he resigned he was still the only white male worker in the office, and one of only four white employees in the entire building.

My husband's ancestors were white slave owners, and 200 years later they are living in poverty. My husband grew up in a single-wide trailer where his father worked two jobs to support the family and save for their children's education. He and his brother were the first of his family to attain a college degree. The disappointment was great when he graduated top of his university class, first of his family to have a degree, and still could not find a job in this poor economy.

As for myself I am a quarter Native American, and the rest of my ancestors were not in the US during the time of slavery. They were too busy being oppressed elsewhere in the world. My great grandfather came to the US with nothing but the clothes on his back. He dug ditches and other odd jobs to feed his family, and with a third grade education was able to die a multimillionaire from a lot of hard work. His daughter (my grandmother) married a Native American man with a sixth grade education and had my father. My father was taught to never use his heritage as a means to advance in life, but instead to work hard and the rewards will come. My father attained a two year degree in engineering and later went on to make a decent living.

Growing up education was everything. Both of my parents were very involved in my schooling. I was able to attain a small scholarship for college, but it wasn't enough to pay it all. My parents, while making a decent living, didn't have the money to pay for it so I ended up getting student loans. I've since gone on to attain my MBA, and will end up with well over 40k in student loans before I am done.

My opinion on wealth is that it's a ton of motivation, a lot of luck, and a little bit of education.

In my husband's career at the department of social services administering food stamps and welfare (now called family independence) I learned a lot about the mentality of those in poverty.

First, I learned that (at least where I live in SC) there are pretty much equally as many white people that are living in poverty as there are black.

Second, I learned that typically those on these programs are victims of generational poverty. These people devalue education and hard work. I can't even begin to count the number of cases (both white and black) where people have turned down programs the state provides to help them earn more money in the work force because it would mean making more money than is allowed to be on state assistance programs.

When I found myself unemployed, and sitting in the unemployment office I was shocked at the number of people whispering about how to work around the system so they stayed on public assistance programs indefinitely. All I wanted was to talk to a counselor about the job listings you could only apply for through the unemployment office. Didn't everyone else just want jobs to be self sufficient?

I really thought that everyone on these state assistance programs were people that were getting help temporarily, and just needed a boost to help them get back on their feet. There are some cases like that, but they really are the minority.

So my question in all of this is: "Is throwing money at people really going to help?"

My second question, which I couldn't even begin to answer is "How do you break the cycle of generational poverty when it seems to stem from a certain mentality?" I at first thought education was the key, but if part of the mentality is that education is useless how do you get them to want to be educated?


I really like the comic posted earlier in this thread, and I'd gladly give a hand to the black guy to help him up (even though my own family had nothing to do with slavery, and my NA ancestors were also greatly oppressed). But then what? Does he thank me and we continue on equal footing towards a common goal of a better life, or does he continue to stand there and expect more?
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#295 Dec 07 2011 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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Seali wrote:
I'd gladly give a hand to the black guy to help him up (even though my own family had nothing to do with slavery, and my NA ancestors were also greatly oppressed). But then what? Does he thank me and we continue on equal footing towards a common goal of a better life, or does he continue to stand there and expect more?
I don't think AA is meant to be a 'freebie' or a hand-out. I'd always assumed it's purpose was more to break down barriers that exist, in a large part, because of our judgmental nature.






Edited, Dec 7th 2011 6:10pm by Elinda
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#296 Dec 07 2011 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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I agree totally. I think I forgot to differentiate between my thoughts on AA and reparations lol. The money and handouts I referred to was in regards to reparations. I think AA is fine as it is because it is designed to help everyone, whites included
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#297 Dec 07 2011 at 10:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Seriously with the giant quote+single lines response, Elinda?
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#298 Dec 07 2011 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Seriously with the giant quote+single lines response, Elinda?
Yeah, I'm pretty lazy sometimes.

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#299varusword75, Posted: Dec 07 2011 at 11:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Elinda,
#300 Dec 07 2011 at 11:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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That's a huge assumption.
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#301 Dec 07 2011 at 11:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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They didn't qualify because they weren't any better than the other guy. AA is supposed to work where, given two equally qualified candidates, you choose the minority or disadvantaged person (this also applies to folks with disabilities) on the assumption that the non-minority is going to have an easier time finding a job elsewhere, which is generally true.

However, if one candidate is clearly, or even just slightly more qualified in any way, then they get the job, regardless of minority status or not.
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