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#127 Nov 23 2011 at 6:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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#128 Nov 23 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
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So much wrong, I don't even care enough to bother.


Interesting how often that's the response when someone's hard held assumptions are challenged.
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#129 Nov 23 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
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You sound like Alma when he desperately yells "you're proving my point for me!!!"
#130 Nov 23 2011 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not nearly as interesting as calling things irrelevant when it suits you.
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#131 Nov 23 2011 at 7:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Interesting how often that's the response when someone's hard held assumptions are challenged.

Yeah, because I've never spent pages arguing with you before. If I say I don't feel like bothering, it must be because I'm just scared Smiley: laugh
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#132 Nov 23 2011 at 7:23 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
Not nearly as interesting as calling things irrelevant when it suits you.


You'd have a point if I just called something irrelevant without actually spending any time or effort supporting the claim.
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#133 Nov 23 2011 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Interesting how often that's the response when someone's hard held assumptions are challenged.

Yeah, because I've never spent pages arguing with you before. If I say I don't feel like bothering, it must be because I'm just scared Smiley: laugh


I didn't say you were scared. I didn't attribute any emotion or motivation to your actions at all. I just made note of a trend I see. The more my argument requires one to examine and defend their own base assumptions, the less likely they are to actually engage in argument and the more likely they are to toss out a dismissive comment (or change the subject).

You're free to speculate as to *why* you (and many other posters) do this, but that doesn't really change anything.
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#134 Nov 23 2011 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
No. The largest barrier is the lack of time or money to obtain it. That's why we fund education, so that those who could not otherwise afford an education can receive at least enough to be contributing members of the work force. Having already decided to fund education, the next biggest barrier might be disengaged parents, but that has nothing to do with the decision to fund education in the first place.

Didn't you say in that other thread that education was solely the responsibility of the parent, and not of the state?
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#135 Nov 23 2011 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
How's that for not dancing around the question?


Pretty good!

Now provide the solution.Smiley: tongue
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#136 Nov 23 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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NOW Gbaji has turned into Alma!
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#137 Nov 23 2011 at 9:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
Not nearly as interesting as calling things irrelevant when it suits you.
You'd have a point if I just called something irrelevant without actually spending any time or effort supporting the claim.
Your spending a lot of time trying to convince yourself something is irrelevant doesn't make it irrelevant in reality. Smiley: smile
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#138 Nov 24 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Jophiel wrote:
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NOW Gbaji has turned into Alma!
Sometimes you go too far. Smiley: tongue
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#139 Nov 25 2011 at 2:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Can I be a black German Jewish immigrant?


I'll allow it!
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#140 Nov 27 2011 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Vageta wrote:
Name one that addresses the generational wealth that give white's an inherent advantage over the descendants of slaves whom don't have that advantage.


Post #1.

Only because I know that you didn't actually read it, let me recap it for you.. It's EDUCATION!!! Giving someone money isn't going to address any of the historical disadvantages. Businesses can always hire the Mexicans to be their janitor, the women to be their secretory and the token Black/Asian person at some low level management to fulfill their race/*** quota. That doesn't solve the problem.

People have to be educated with a goal and motivation to obtain that goal. Once you become independent, then there isn't a great necessity for government intervention. This is not to say that people ARE NOT educated now, but the focus of education has to change. Since there is a generational gap of disadvantages, the focus has to be different than the typical white counterpart. That was the initial purpose of BET, JET and other predominately black forms of media. The issues that effect the black community aren't the same as the issues that affect the white community and if those issues aren't addressed as such, they will be lost.

Here's a Dave Chappelle reference on what would happen if you just give people money without any education.


Edit: I meant this video


Vageta wrote:
No one "relies" on AA. It's similar to charter school lotteries in that only the "luckiest" of minorities actually get to benefit from it. Any white's that feel disenfranchised because of AA, kindly take a gander at post #15 again.


My original comparison was better. It's like school vouchers and the concept of "luck" does not solve the problem.


Edited, Nov 27th 2011 10:01pm by Almalieque

Edited, Nov 27th 2011 10:02pm by Almalieque
#141 Nov 27 2011 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Omegavegeta wrote:
Slavery reparations would even the playing field, dramatically. It'll never happen, but it's the simplest way to reduce the advantage many whites have by way of the inherent wealth they enjoy for no other reason than they were not born the descendant of a slave.


What's bizarre is that I've been reading this thread, and Alma does have a legitimate question/point/whatever with regard to your response, but it's not the one he keeps making.

IIRC, someone asked why his family, who weren't in this country when slavery existed, should have to pay reparations for those actions just because he happens to be white? As an extension, we could ask how one would determine who gets those reparations as well, but that's a separate question.

Alma quoted that question and asked you to respond. Your response was simply "post 15". The problem is that the cartoon does not address the question which was asked. The kid who's up top isn't the same kid who stepped on the other 150+ years ago. And in many cases, he's not descended from that kid, nor are many who might demand AA descended from the kid who was stepped on either.


You might have a point if AA and even reparations were aimed at just those who were descended from slaves. But they're not. And the arguments for why they aren't get more and more tortuous the farther you delve into them. It's certainly not as simple as the cartoon makes it out and it's kinda silly to refuse to provide any more argument *except* that cartoon. Now admittedly in this case, it appears to be working, but let's not think that you're really winning any great mental battles here, shall we?


Exactly this. I tried pointing that out. They are two different people. Just because you're white, doesn't mean you will be treated better than everyone else. If you're the minority, you probably wont be treated the same as in a place where you are the majority.

Nilatai wrote:
The kid is representing white people as a whole, the other kid represents black people as a whole.


I can't believe I really had to explain that cartoon...


Read above.

Gbaji wrote:

They are statistically worse off. Is this a direct result of slavery though?


I would argue mostly. There are now definitely "self-inflicting" wounds, but the root of them all comes from the root of it all, slavery.

#142 Nov 27 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Vageta wrote:
Here's a link to a study from Ohio state. In it, they ask the very simple question: "How much would you need to be paid to live the rest of your life as black?"

Most answered at or under $10K.

In contrast, they said they'd need to be paid about $1 million to give up TV fo rthe rest of their lives.


Although I don't disagree with the topic of the article, what exactly does that answer mean? You literally couldn't pay me enough money to change my race or live without TV. Their answer could be a result of a "lack of pride", "love of money" or any other thought.

Vageta wrote:
I'm fine if any & all of you disagree with me, but what would you do to fix the problem?


Post #1

Jophiel wrote:
Reparations strike me sort of like "Deport all the illegals" arguments. A shallow solution that sounds good for a half second before realizing that it's logistically impossible and time would be better spent on addressing the issue from a more systemic standpoint.


Smiley: smile Me and Jophiel agree on something

Gbaji wrote:
A person raised in a (white) home and taught that he can succeed through hard work and personal accomplishment will tend to believe he can do this no matter what his skin color (and statistics for black children raised in "white" homes tends to bear this out). But someone raised in a home where he is taught constantly to accept as assumed truth that he cannot succeed on his own, that the deck is stacked against him, and that no one will treat him fairly purely because of his skin color, will be more likely to blame any failure he encounters on racism, and be more likely to give up when faced with any sort of failure. So bad grades in school, failing to get that first job, boss telling him he needs to work harder, cops pulling him over, all end out being interpreted within the lens of racism he's been taught to see everywhere. How can we not expect this to affect his outlook on the world around him and ultimately his own outcomes?


Although, this is true, that still doesn't neglect the current difference in treatment. The past few years, I've noticed a lot of unfair sociological treatment. Due to the fact that black Americans were stripped away from their culture, it's always been a goal to recreate something that is "black", i.e. the "black power movement". Something to call "ours" and be proud of it. When other cultures do it, they are accepted. When black people do it, it's frowned upon and called words like "ghetto".

"Ghetto" has a negative connotation to it and mostly things that are only done by black people are called "ghetto", even though the word isn't bound to a certain race.

Gbaji wrote:
I know it's unpopular, but I really do believe that the biggest cause of poverty and suffering by blacks in America is not white racism, but the actions of black leaders who seem to care more about using black suffering for their own benefit (and political ideology) than to actually do anything about that suffering. The cause is more important than the people in it. And that's why the people suffer.


Read above. While I don't deny that is often true, that isn't ALWAYS true.

#143 Nov 27 2011 at 2:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:

Except for the whole "We're going to target the money based on people's skin color" part, sure. Oh wait. They really aren't anything at all alike.


I would argue that they are very much a like. Throwing money at education only helps education if the environment is susceptible for the positive change.

Gbaji wrote:
No. The largest barrier is the lack of time or money to obtain it. That's why we fund education, so that those who could not otherwise afford an education can receive at least enough to be contributing members of the work force. Having already decided to fund education, the next biggest barrier might be disengaged parents, but that has nothing to do with the decision to fund education in the first place.


Read above. Money is not the issue. It's the educational system and the environment that is directly connected to it. Believe it or not, you don't need fancy desks and current up to date books to learn Algebra. Money is nice, but we take that money and invest it on things that don't matter. We focus on standardized tests to get better scores just to get more money to put in things that are irrelevant in education, i.e. sports.

Gbaji wrote:
I think you're getting the motivation completely wrong, but that's really beside the point. Even to the degree that a school may attempt to counteract the effect of disengaged parents, we target that based on the situation for each individual student. Teachers know which kids have engaged parents and which don't, and may work harder with the "at risk" kids to try to get them interested in their education, but they don't look at statistics for at risk kids based on race and decide to dedicate X number of additional hours of instruction/interaction with kids based on their race. That would be insane, right? You help the kids who need help. You don't provide additional help to all kids of one racial group and less to kids of another simply because of some broad social statistics.


So, no. Nothing like Affirmative Action.


It's the concept of throwing money to a specific group of unfortunate people in hopes of resolving a problem. Children receiving school vouchers to a "better school" is conceptually the same as an adult receiving a minority scholarship to a university.

#144 Nov 27 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Did you really just cite comedian Dave Chappelle as a reference to what would happen if you handed money out.?

You are terrible at arguing a point. But this is just retarded.

Least you could have used the bailout as an example...oh wait nvm that was giving out money to rich educated white men in charge of the countries financial sector I forgot.

also last I checked everyone has access to education, via public schools, private schools, and yes even learning from home via internet schooling. shocking isn't it.
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#145 Nov 27 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
I would argue that they are very much a like. Throwing money at education only helps education if the environment is susceptible for the positive change.


I believe "conducive" was the word you were looking for, there.Smiley: schooled



On that note, are you arguing that the fault lies not with racism but with terrible parents?
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#146 Nov 28 2011 at 2:33 AM Rating: Decent
Alma wrote:
Only because I know that you didn't actually read it, let me recap it for you.. It's EDUCATION!!! Giving someone money isn't going to address any of the historical disadvantages. Businesses can always hire the Mexicans to be their janitor, the women to be their secretory and the token Black/Asian person at some low level management to fulfill their race/*** quota. That doesn't solve the problem.


We already provide free public education to children of all races. However, white kids tend to do better with their education because of whom their parents are as opposed to black kids who's parents are statistically lower income than their white counterparts (Again, due to the generational wealth that the descendants of slaves do not benefit from).

It stands to reason that IF those black parents were closer in income to their white counterparts, education for their children could take a higher priority than :Doing whatever needs to be done to survive" in a lower income urban environment.

While I certainly do agree that pumping more money into education for lower income families is a good thing, it doesn't fix the generational wealth gap.
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#147 Nov 28 2011 at 3:09 AM Rating: Default
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Bijou wrote:
I believe "conducive" was the word you were looking for, there.Smiley: schooled


Thanks, but I meant "susceptible".


Bijou wrote:



On that note, are you arguing that the fault lies not with racism but with terrible parents?


We're talking about several issues. Which one are you referring to? We made an analogy of the AA solution with the school voucher solution. Those are two different social issues. The comparison was pointed at the solution, not the problem.

Vageta wrote:

We already provide free public education to children of all races. However, white kids tend to do better with their education because of whom their parents are as opposed to black kids who's parents are statistically lower income than their white counterparts (Again, due to the generational wealth that the descendants of slaves do not benefit from).

It stands to reason that IF those black parents were closer in income to their white counterparts, education for their children could take a higher priority than :Doing whatever needs to be done to survive" in a lower income urban environment.


Did you read the rest of my post? Your response says that you didn't.

Almalieque in the same post that you quoted from wrote:
People have to be educated with a goal and motivation to obtain that goal. Once you become independent, then there isn't a great necessity for government intervention. This is not to say that people ARE NOT educated now, but the focus of education has to change. Since there is a generational gap of disadvantages, the focus has to be different than the typical white counterpart. That was the initial purpose of BET, JET and other predominately black forms of media. The issues that effect the black community aren't the same as the issues that affect the white community and if those issues aren't addressed as such, they will be lost.


Vageta wrote:
While I certainly do agree that pumping more money into education for lower income families is a good thing, it doesn't fix the generational wealth gap.


I actually said the exact opposite.

Almalieque wrote:
Money is not the issue. It's the educational system and the environment that is directly connected to it. Believe it or not, you don't need fancy desks and current up to date books to learn Algebra. Money is nice, but we take that money and invest it on things that don't matter. We focus on standardized tests to get better scores just to get more money to put in things that are irrelevant in education, i.e. sports.
#148 Nov 28 2011 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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Affirmative action? Fuck no.

In Texas, we have a state law saying that if you are in the top 10% of your graduating class, then you get automatic admission to all Texas public colleges. They decided to implement this because the Texas legislature decided that there wasn't enough ethnic variety at Texas public schools.

Now, there is certainly more, say, inner-city kids at schools like UT, but we've run into the issue where schools are having to take only top 10% kids because after the kids they are required to take, they simply don't have the room to take anyone else.

The school I wanted to go to, University of Texas, even has had an exception made for them. This past year, they only had to take the top 8% of students, because they are quickly reaching overpopulation. They have ~50,000 students, and no room to grow, being in the middle of Austin. They only made the exception because they predicted that this past year 75% of students would be getting in for this top 10% rule.

Now, you're probably thinking this is fair. Everyone has a the same chance to be top 10% in their school, right? Wrong. I went to a very good public school. Ranked 98 in the country by Newsweek. You think the top 10% at my school, with a graduating class of about 1,000 students was, as easy to get as the top 10% in podunk West Texas? **** no.

My GPA was 3.8. I was rank 300. Top third. That's it. I would be top 10% easy at many other schools in Texas. I was accepted to Baylor, SMU, and many other private schools that didn't have to deal with the top 10 rule. Do I think I would have been accepted at UT if the rule weren't in place? Maybe. I don't know. I'm not arrogant enough to say yes. But I will say that in Texas that rule is an example of affirmative action, and is completely unfair.

The law was even implemented because affirmative action in college admission is illegal. This was a freaking workaround.

So no, I don't' support affirmative action. All men are created equally? Then give us all an equal chance, for crap's sake.
Lol, so all things being equal pick me because I'm white, I went to a better high school and I deserve it more than them poor black slobs.

Nice example for AA proponents to make their case.
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#149 Nov 28 2011 at 7:58 AM Rating: Good
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Almalieque wrote:
ArexLovesPie wrote:
You could be like the Indian tribes up in ND. Complain about the UND Sioux nickname, and then get free tuition if you can prove your at least 1/16th Indian or more.


For real? Hmmm. I should check that out...

Are you an African American Indian?

I have American Indian in my blood on my paternal grandmas side. We're not allowed to talk about it. Smiley: tongue
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#150 Nov 28 2011 at 7:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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rdmcandie wrote:
Did you really just cite comedian Dave Chappelle as a reference to what would happen if you handed money out.?
Apparently Dave Chappelle is "legendary" to Alma.
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#151 Nov 28 2011 at 8:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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lolgaxe wrote:
rdmcandie wrote:
Did you really just cite comedian Dave Chappelle as a reference to what would happen if you handed money out.?
Apparently Dave Chappelle is "legendary" to Alma.

Well, he's more principled and likely more intelligent than Rush or that other guy.
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