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Read my edit, there's no causation, so what's your point? I can create numerous of similar types of stats, but they mean absolutely nothing if there isn't any causation. The point of this option is to teach criminals socially acceptable morals, values and standards as opposed to straight imprisonment. It can come straight from Osama's diary, it doesn't matter. His actions doesn't take away from what was written.
No causation besides being comfortable in the knowledge that if you fuck up this life, it doesn't matter? Besides, whatever your crimes, you get forgiven right? Must be awesome.
The point of this option...is to get more Christians? I don't know. Shockingly, going to Church isn't the only way people learn socially acceptable morals. So that avenue is kind of moot.
The point of this option...is to get more Christians? I don't know. Shockingly, going to Church isn't the only way people learn socially acceptable morals. So that avenue is kind of moot.
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Nilatai wrote:
Shockingly, going to Church isn't the only way people learn socially acceptable morals. So that avenue is kind of moot.
I'd venture to say Church isn't the way most people learn socially acceptable morals. They learn it from their parents, their extended family, their classmates, and the community around them. Church is wholly unnecessary in that respect.
Edited, Sep 24th 2011 3:09pm by BrownDuck
BrownDuck wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Shockingly, going to Church isn't the only way people learn socially acceptable morals. So that avenue is kind of moot.
I'd venture to say Church isn't the way most people learn socially acceptable morals. They learn it from their parents, their extended family, their classmates, and the community around them. Church is wholly unnecessary in that respect.
Edited, Sep 24th 2011 3:09pm by BrownDuck
I would agree with you.
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
A community service option is definitely needed. Instead of just having someone tell you to be nice to people, they're forced to actually do it...
I can also easily see how someone who commits a hate crime against, say, a homosexual can instead have their feelings reinforced instead of becoming a "better" person by opting to go to church for a year versus jail time.
I can also easily see how someone who commits a hate crime against, say, a homosexual can instead have their feelings reinforced instead of becoming a "better" person by opting to go to church for a year versus jail time.
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
A community service option is definitely needed. Instead of just having someone tell you to be nice to people, they're forced to actually do it...
I can also easily see how someone who commits a hate crime against, say, a homosexual can instead have their feelings reinforced instead of becoming a "better" person by opting to go to church for a year versus jail time.
I can also easily see how someone who commits a hate crime against, say, a homosexual can instead have their feelings reinforced instead of becoming a "better" person by opting to go to church for a year versus jail time.
Also, community service is already an option on many misdemeanours.
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An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo
Nilatai wrote:
No causation besides being comfortable in the knowledge that if you fuck up this life, it doesn't matter?
You shouldn't be living your life for the sole purpose of an afterlife. If that were the case, you should commit suicide. The point is to live a good life NOW, the afterlife is just a bonus. So, I fail to see how that's "comfortable"? You lived an effed up life. "Well at least I wont have an effed up afterlife"? I mean, even if religions were all fake, wouldn't you want to have at least one good lifetime?
Nilatai wrote:
Besides, whatever your crimes, you get forgiven right? Must be awesome.
Forgiving someone does not mean forgetting the action made. You're just grasping at straws because you're anti religion. Just because you are forgiven, doesn't excuse or pardon you from punishment. People make mistakes, some more grave than others, but most people would want a "second" chance to redeem themselves. Likewise, most people are willing to give people second opportunities after being punished, apologized to, etc.
Nilatai wrote:
The point of this option...is to get more Christians? I don't know. Shockingly, going to Church isn't the only way people learn socially acceptable morals. So that avenue is kind of moot.
Then take the jail option if you don't like it. If you're so anti-church that you, as a criminal, can't fathom the idea of going to church as a way to benefit you even if you aren't religious, then you should simply take the jail option.
It's not moot at all. Yes, there's plenty of ways to learn socially acceptable morals and you, as a criminal, chose neither of them or at least to act upon them. So, why should you now have freedom and options for corrections? The point isn't to get more Christians, as I bet there are other religious options available. The point is for corrective learning. If going to church offends you that much, then go to jail.
I bet there would be a lot less hurp durping from the peanut gallery if it were mosque or jail.
If, you know, you also ignore the fact it's blatantly unconstitutional:
If you're telling me "going to church" doesn't violate any of these you're nothing short of retarded (par for the course, though)
Lemon v Kurtzman wrote:
The government's action must have a secular legislative purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
If you're telling me "going to church" doesn't violate any of these you're nothing short of retarded (par for the course, though)
Almalieque wrote:
[...] religions weare all fake, [so] wouldn't you want to have at least one good lifetime?
Almalieque wrote:
Forgiving someone does not mean forgetting the action made. You're just grasping at straws because you're anti religion. Just because you are forgiven, doesn't excuse or pardon you from punishment. People make mistakes, some more grave than others, but most people would want a "second" chance to redeem themselves. Likewise, most people are willing to give people second opportunities after being punished, apologized to, etc.
Almalieque wrote:
Then take the jail option if you don't like it. If you're so anti-church that you, as a criminal, can't fathom the idea of going to church as a way to benefit you even if you aren't religious, then you should simply take the jail option.
Now if you were forced to either take community service or, I don't know, get some extra qualifications? Get your High School Diploma or equivalent? The majority of petty crime (which this scheme is aimed at) is committed by people who don't have any kind of education, right? I somehow think that educating people would cut crime rates more effectively than your particular brand of monotheism would.
Almalieque wrote:
It's not moot at all. Yes, there's plenty of ways to learn socially acceptable morals and you, as a criminal, chose neither of them or at least to act upon them. So, why should you now have freedom and options for corrections? The point isn't to get more Christians, as I bet there are other religious options available. The point is for corrective learning. If going to church offends you that much, then go to jail.
So you really don't see the problem with enforcing one specific brand of Abrahamic religion over all the other religions? See Sweetum's post.
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 5:40am by Nilatai
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Eske Esquire wrote:
idigorry wrote:
True, but it is still just a version of morality. And it isn't like they give you any reason to care about those morals beyond "god says so."
I think your bias is showing in that exaggeration. They give plenty of reasons beyond that. The usual stuff, about trying to make people happy and the like. The same stuff that an atheist would use to motivate himself to do good. It isn't all just "trying to make the big guy in the sky happy, otherwise we wouldn't give a toss." There's a lot of overlap.
There's nothing about Christianity that grounds morals in doing good to others. Ultimately, every single act is good or bad with reference to god. Naturally, they consider doing good unto others to be superior to hurting them, but it's always in service to the lord. But "good" is never framed in a hedonistic sense--it's still always good in a Christian sense.
It IS about always making the big guy in the sky happy. It isn't like you didn't give a **** about the person you helped (often) but that's still why you did it in the first place. You did it because you learned that it was the type of person god wanted you to be.
Also, you can be an atheist and believe there is an objective fact about morality. Just saying.
Quote:
idiggory wrote:
If you were a faithful person before, and still committed a crime, it's because you either felt it was justified under god or your vice was momentarily larger than your virtue. In this case, going to church is hardly going to help you--it didn't help before either.
If you weren't a person of faith, then the message of a church isn't going to matter. All religions I can think of (except perhaps Buddhism and Wicca) justify the "Why?" question by turning to their deity. If you're an atheist, church isn't going to help you.
So, realistically, what they are doing is pretending like all offenders just haven't found Jesus yet and are sentencing them to church, with the hopes that they'll become good little theists. It's absurd.
If you weren't a person of faith, then the message of a church isn't going to matter. All religions I can think of (except perhaps Buddhism and Wicca) justify the "Why?" question by turning to their deity. If you're an atheist, church isn't going to help you.
So, realistically, what they are doing is pretending like all offenders just haven't found Jesus yet and are sentencing them to church, with the hopes that they'll become good little theists. It's absurd.
So says you. But church has demonstrably helped people reform before, so I don't see how you can back up that conjecture.
But it's not about morality. Whether or not someone is a "good" or "bad" person has no bearing on whether or not they should go to prison or not. This law starts with the assumption that all law-breakers are bad people and that all churches make good people, and that's just so stupid.
Has religion
And you've still failed to demonstrate why we should assume that a Christian is less likely to commit a crime.
Quote:
idigorry wrote:
And as someone pointed out, it means that people who DO actively go to church have absolutely nothing to fear from misdemeanors.
They'd probably just sentence them to jail time, I'd suspect. That's a solvable problem, at any rate.
Yet you don't see any issue with this? You see no issue with the fact that there's such a huge difference in treatment of peoples based on their religious beliefs?
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Nilatai wrote:
So you really don't see the problem with enforcing one specific brand of Abrahamic religion over all the other religions? See Sweetum's post.
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 5:40am by Nilatai
I do accede the point that church is punishment, though.
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
...
I'm trying to tell you what most churches are like in practicality, because I've been in quite a few. You're not interested in listening, though.
Look, I'm done arguing this with you. You're going all raging atheist at me, and I don't have half the patience for this debate that you do.
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 10:42am by Eske
Eske Esquire wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
...
I'm trying to tell you what most churches are like in practicality, because I've been in quite a few. You're not interested in listening, though.
Look, I'm done arguing this with you. You're going all raging atheist at me, and I don't have half the patience for this debate that you do.
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 10:42am by Eske
I've been in quite a few myself. My parents' choice isn't full of raging lunatics, and it's my best point of comparison.
The point is that, ultimately, all of their teachings go back to what God asks of us. If you don't have faith in their god, then you ultimately have no reason to accept their teachings.
Sure, my parents' priest might talk to you about why doing good for other people is valuable without directly referencing god. But the reason he believes it is ultimately good, and the motivation for doing it, is ultimately earning a spot in heaven.
Going to church every Sunday is not going to teach you how to be a better person unless you have reason to care about what you are hearing. It's also, obviously, teaching you a version of morality skewed towards Christian belief.
Might people come out of it "better" than before, even if they are atheists? I suppose. But I doubt it will have any meaningful impact. And the price is WAY too high for me to consider it worth it even if everyone came out better.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Eske Esquire wrote:
idiggory, King of Bards wrote:
I fail to see how going to church is useful in any meaningful way.
In my experience with church services, they're pretty much devoted to lessons about how to be a better person. You don't think that could be useful? Spend a year going to services, and you're apt to at least listen to what's being said. Go to jail, and you can perfectly well come out more bitter and criminal than when you went in. And community service strikes me the same as church: you're welcome to not take anything useful out of the experience if you so choose. In any situation, reform has to come from the criminal himself.
1) Zoning out during the homily/sermon. If it's Catholic church, this is even more likely to happen.
2) (if Catholic) Yum, wine and stale tasteless crackers!
3) Asking for money
4) If you're Catholic, lots of aerobics.
Quote:
I can't speak to how it'd work in practicality, but the logic seems to be sound enough. Comparing it to jail time, or community service, I'd say that it seems about as likely to get someone to reform their ways as the next option. Pastors, if they're competent, will typically reach out to these kinds of people and try to get them engaged in a positive way.
I'm fine with it. For misdemeanors, at least. It's less confrontational, and I've been around the catholic church enough to know that it's capable of doing a lot of good, as much as I disagree with a lot about it.
And there are a LOT of community service outlets that can let you actually engage with the ramifications of your crimes, which actually teaches a valuable lesson whilst forcing you to help make up for what you did.
I'm fully on board with a solution like this.
And, like I said, I have no problem with church-run organizations being a part of the community service pool (as long as religion isn't a part of it). Like I said earlier, my mother runs her church's food bank. They also have the only homeless shelter for men in the entire county (which was absolutely shocking to me when I learned it). That's not to mention the other assorted charities they are involved in, like clothing and gift drives, aid for the elderly, etc.
I'm not denying that churches can turn out good people, or provide a lot of good in a community. I just think it's absolutely stupid to think that going to church every Sunday will make someone a good person. Especially when it doesn't actually give back the community at all.
I'm fully on board with a solution like this.
And, like I said, I have no problem with church-run organizations being a part of the community service pool (as long as religion isn't a part of it). Like I said earlier, my mother runs her church's food bank. They also have the only homeless shelter for men in the entire county (which was absolutely shocking to me when I learned it). That's not to mention the other assorted charities they are involved in, like clothing and gift drives, aid for the elderly, etc.
I'm not denying that churches can turn out good people, or provide a lot of good in a community. I just think it's absolutely stupid to think that going to church every Sunday will make someone a good person. Especially when it doesn't actually give back the community at all.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Nilatai wrote:
Kind of my whole point.
That doesn't make sense. People practice religion to have a better current lifetime.
Nilatai wrote:
That's not how your religion works. Not in the long run. Believe in Jesus and you get into heaven, regardless of the kind of life you've lived.
Your lack of understanding isn't my fault. The point isn't to go to Heaven, but to live by Jesus in the current. Else, suicide would be a major part of the religion. You know, kinda like what some cults do?
Nilatai wrote:
I could see how faking it could benefit me. I don't see why this option is on par with jail or community service, however.
I'm not arguing to say it is and if I were to say one way or the other without giving it much thought, I would say it isn't. That isn't my point. I'm arguing against this concept that a criminal should have more "choices" in their punishment. I don't care if the other option were licking an elephant's foot.
Nilatai wrote:
So you really don't see the problem with enforcing one specific brand of Abrahamic religion over all the other religions? See Sweetum's post.
Read above
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 9:22pm by Almalieque
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kind of my whole point.
That doesn't make sense. People practice religion to have a better current lifetime.
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
That's not how your religion works. Not in the long run. Believe in Jesus and you get into heaven, regardless of the kind of life you've lived.
Your lack of understanding isn't my fault. The point isn't to go to Heaven, but to live by Jesus in the current. Else, suicide would be a major part of the religion. You know, kinda like what some cults do?
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
I could see how faking it could benefit me. I don't see why this option is on par with jail or community service, however.
I'm not arguing to say it is and if I were to say one way or the other without giving it much thought, I would say it isn't. That isn't my point. I'm arguing against this concept that a criminal should have more "choices" in their punishment. I don't care if the other option were licking an elephant's foot.
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
So you really don't see the problem with enforcing one specific brand of Abrahamic religion over all the other religions? See Sweetum's post.
Read above
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 6:52pm by Nilatai
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Nilatai wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kind of my whole point.
That doesn't make sense. People practice religion to have a better current lifetime.
That "good idea" is usually "so you don't burn in hell."
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kind of my whole point.
That doesn't make sense. People practice religion to have a better current lifetime.
That "good idea" is usually "so you don't burn in hell."
Generally that depends on planting the idea that hell is a real place in the mind of a child. Good times!
Edited, Sep 25th 2011 7:58pm by Nilatai
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kind of my whole point.
That doesn't make sense. People practice religion to have a better current lifetime.
That "good idea" is usually "so you don't burn in hell."
Nilatai wrote:
No they don't, people practice religion because they're made to by their parents and then see no choice. That or they're convinced by someone they trust that it's a good idea.
Yea, I'm not talking about 7 year olds. I'm talking about adults, even so much as teenagers. I'm not sure what people you hang around, but I have never met an adult that PRACTICED a religion that they didn't believe in. I know many people who will attend religious services with their parents or other activities for their parent's sake, but attending Church during Christmas, Easter and Mother's Day is NOT PRACTICING a religion.
You know this.
Nilatai wrote:
Well the church made it a sin, so it's kind of a catch 22.
Where is that written? Why would the Church make it a sin if the point is to live in the afterlife? Didn't you say yourself that you can ask for forgiveness and be ok? "Lord, forgive me for what I'm about to do". Death, Heaven. Too easy right?
NIlatai wrote:
Well then you should be against this as it isn't going to be any more effective than community service at repaying the debt to society or more effective than prison at rehabilitation.
That's not my argument. I didn't read what it entails. Churches do community service. For all I know, that might be part of the punishment. These probably weren't random churches, but churches who agreed to set up a program to work with these criminals. I didn't read any background and I care not to. My only argument is that you all are acting silly about giving criminals choices for punishments because you don't like religion. You're being completely biased.
Nilatai wrote:
No.
You already did
Almalieque wrote:
Where is that written? Why would the Church make it a sin if the point is to live in the afterlife? Didn't you say yourself that you can ask for forgiveness and be ok? "Lord, forgive me for what I'm about to do". Death, Heaven. Too easy right?
Almalieque wrote:
That's not my argument. I didn't read what it entails. Churches do community service. For all I know, that might be part of the punishment. These probably weren't random churches, but churches who agreed to set up a program to work with these criminals. I didn't read any background and I care not to. My only argument is that you all are acting silly about giving criminals choices for punishments because you don't like religion. You're being completely biased.
Almalieque wrote:
You already did
That's what you think.
Edited, Sep 26th 2011 6:01am by Nilatai
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
Nilatai wrote:
See, it has to do with the fact that churches want power now, in this lifetime. You can't control people if you let them think that if they kill themselves they'll be happy.
That doesn't make sense. It doesn't take a life time to believe in a religion. If the point of religion is controlling people, then the purpose isn't the afterlife, it's controlling people.
Some "cults" preach afterlife to control people. That's how they get them to commit suicide. Rather if the person is alive or dead has no effect on your ability to control that person. I can have people invest all of their money to my "cult" and then have them kill themselves from the power I possess over them.
You simply have no argument.
Nilatai wrote:
Probably, but so are you. If you had to do community service at a Mosque I doubt you'd be so accommodating.
If my choices were to go to jail or go to a Mosque, I would go to the Mosque like any sane person would do. Just because you have this undying bias against religion, doesn't mean others do as well.
Nilatai wrote:
That's what you think.
Of course or I wouldn't have wrote it.
Written it.*
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.
LordFaramir wrote:
ODESNT MATTER CAUSE I HAVE ALCHOLOL IN MY VEINGS BETCH ;3
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