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#902 Oct 25 2011 at 11:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
So, let me get this straight. Denying someone a job based on the color of their skin is NOT discrimination, only in the most generic definition?

Denying someone a job based on a legitimate inability to fit the needs of the job is not discrimination.
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So, as an employer, if you don't fit my "vision", regardless if you can do the job or not, then it is NOT discrimination?

Depends. If the job is serving burgers and I refuse to hire Asians, I better have a good explanation for why Asians are legitimate incapable of serving my burgers. If I'm hiring female exotic dancers and a male ballerina applies, it's within my rights to deny him the position.

Are you five years old or something? Most people have this noodled out by then.
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#903 Oct 25 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
Alma wrote:
Because of that, he has an irrational bias towards it and will refuse to accept any logical discrimination against [homosexuality]it.


When is it logical? Anyone?
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#904 Oct 25 2011 at 11:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Post 206, to include my other quoted post, is a lot of writing. I'm not going to waste time rewriting all of that when you can just point out which parts don't make sense.


IMO you've wasted as much time referencing post 206 as you would have elaborating on the content of that post. If all you're going to do reference your previous post I'm left wondering why you even bother responding.
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#905 Oct 25 2011 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Eske Esquire wrote:
Alma wrote:
Well, if you were paying attention to any of my posts that you claim to notice this pattern, then you would know that I've answered that question a million times over. I always start off saying everything at once (i.e. post 206) and people either don't read it and/or don't understand it. As a result, I just ask simple questions and then people refuse to answer them out of fear of contradicting themselves, wanting the "whole picture". I was simply asking a question, if you want to know my "point", then read post 206. Just don't complain about restating or breaking it down.


Even if that were an accurate summary of what's transpired (it isn't), that doesn't prevent you from restating your position in clearer, more concise terminology.

It doesn't have to be an either/or between immense, rambling anti-logic and tiny, hyper-generalized, wholly irrelevant questionnaires.

Edited, Oct 25th 2011 1:36pm by Eske



If you were paying attention, you would have also realized that I said that I can't make something that I don't know isn't clear clearer. It's up to you to tell me exactly what part doesn't make sense, else I'll just repeat what I said. Post 206, to include my other quoted post, is a lot of writing. I'm not going to waste time rewriting all of that when you can just point out which parts don't make sense.

If you say "all of it", then you're either lying or can't read. Since you don't seem to have a problem reading my last posts, I will have to defer to option A.


Eh? You misunderstand. I'm not going to. Why would I? Like if I go through and point out the 8 million logical fallacies, you'll be receptive, and one by one, we'll work through them and reach an accord? Maybe at the end you'll realize that there's no viable case for barring homosexuals from open service?

Smiley: lol

I'll pass.

Others, though, have been trying to tell you what doesn't make sense. A lot. Sure didn't work for them.

But honestly, are you really concerned about the potential "wasted time" of trying to rephrase things? Really? Gonna try to pull that one on page 18?
#906 Oct 25 2011 at 12:02 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:

Denying someone a job based on a legitimate inability to fit the needs of the job is not discrimination.


What does your ability to act have anything to do with your skin color? I'm not saying it's not justified, but it's still discrimination. I'm not sure why you're pretending otherwise.

Jophiel wrote:

Are you five years old or something? Most people have this noodled out by then.


I'm simply pointing out that there are legitimate reasons to discriminate against sex, skin color, etc. Vageta said that there weren't any logical reasons to discriminate against skin color. You should be asking him if he is 5 years old.

Side note:

Jophiel wrote:
If I'm hiring female exotic dancers and a male ballerina applies, it's within my rights to deny him the position.


You are familiar with men suing Hooters for not allowing them to apply, right? There are even cases where men sued for not being able to join a sorority. In Korea, one installation wouldn't allow Greek organization events because frats didn't allow women to join and sororities didn't allow men to join. We would have had to rewrite our bi-laws to include both sexes. This is all at the same time while allowing the boy scouts and the girl scouts to do functions.

The military's answer? "That's different". But, wait, the military doesn't openly discriminate against anyone, only TEH GAYZ!!!!!
#907 Oct 25 2011 at 12:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
You are familiar with men suing Hooters for not allowing them to apply, right?

And how many men do you see working as servers at Hooters today?

ProTip: "Suing" =/= "Success"

The term you're looking for here is "bona fide occupational qualifications".
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#908 Oct 25 2011 at 12:14 PM Rating: Default
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Alma wrote:
Because of that, he has an irrational bias towards it and will refuse to accept any logical discrimination against [homosexuality]it.


When is it logical? Anyone?


Do you or do you not think it's a logical discrimination to cast an actor/actress of a certain skin color to portray a person of the said skin color?

someproteinguy wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Post 206, to include my other quoted post, is a lot of writing. I'm not going to waste time rewriting all of that when you can just point out which parts don't make sense.


IMO you've wasted as much time referencing post 206 as you would have elaborating on the content of that post. If all you're going to do reference your previous post I'm left wondering why you even bother responding.


I save so much more time saying "post 206". I've learned from the past that repeating myself doesn't help if no one even bothers to read half the stuff I say. When people admit not to reading, asked answered questions or make blatantly wrong statements, then I'm not going to waste additional time on that.

For example, how many times have people stated that one discrimination doesn't support another? Not only have I agreed with that from the beginning, I've stated it multiple times since then.

Eske wrote:
But honestly, are you really concerned about the potential "wasted time" of trying to rephrase things? Really? Gonna try to pull that one on page 18?


Yes.. posting in this forum is my hobby. So, I spend time doing it, but that doesn't mean I want to keep re-posting such large posts. I've said before, my favorite are quick 1 or 2 line responses... Doing so, gets to page 18 very quickly, especially when I'm replying to numerous people.
#909 Oct 25 2011 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You are familiar with men suing Hooters for not allowing them to apply, right?

And how many men do you see working as servers at Hooters today?

ProTip: "Suing" =/= "Success"

The term you're looking for here is "bona fide occupational qualifications".


and success != correctness.

How many states support SSM? So if proponents fail, does that mean SSM is "wrong"?
#910 Oct 25 2011 at 12:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Eske wrote:
But honestly, are you really concerned about the potential "wasted time" of trying to rephrase things? Really? Gonna try to pull that one on page 18?


Yes.. posting in this forum is my hobby. So, I spend time doing it, but that doesn't mean I want to keep re-posting such large posts. I've said before, my favorite are quick 1 or 2 line responses... Doing so, gets to page 18 very quickly, especially when I'm replying to numerous people.


Who asked you to re-post it? Is it that hard for you to rephrase and consolidate? I'm sure, if you were a human being of average mental capacity, you'd be able to put together a paragraph that states your position in clear and concise terms.

Junior high schoolers are asked to do as much when they write a paper. Granted, It'd be tough for you to achieve their levels of success, but you'd think it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to give it the old college try.
#911 Oct 25 2011 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
and success != correctness.

It is, however, a measure of how the courts view it in regards to "discrimination".

USLegal.com wrote:
Bona fide occupational qualifications (BFOQ) are employment qualifications that employers are allowed to consider while making decisions about hiring and retention of employees. The qualification should relate to an essential job duty and is considered necessary for operation of the particular business.

The Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications rule allows for the hiring of individuals based on race, sex, age, and national origin if these characteristics are bona fide occupational qualifications. This is an exception and complete defense to Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which protects employees from discrimination based on religion, sex, age, national origin and color at the workplace.
[...]
Examples of BFOQ's are: mandatory retirement ages for bus drivers and airplane pilots for safety reasons, churches requiring members of its clergy to be of a certain denomination and may lawfully bar, from employment, anyone who is not a member.However, for positions at a church such as janitors, discrimination based on religious denomination would be illegal because religion has no effect on a person's ability to fulfill the duties of the job. Other examples of bona fide occupation qualifications include the use of models and actors for the purpose of authenticity or genuineness, the requirement of emergency personnel to be bilingual, judged on language competency, not national origin.


Are you saying there's no place for bona fide occupational qualifications in the workplace?

Before you start crabbing, I'm exhausting this line of thought before jumping to the next. I'll answer your next question after you've adequately explained yourself here.

Edited, Oct 25th 2011 1:28pm by Jophiel
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#912 Oct 25 2011 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Eske wrote:
But honestly, are you really concerned about the potential "wasted time" of trying to rephrase things? Really? Gonna try to pull that one on page 18?


Yes.. posting in this forum is my hobby. So, I spend time doing it, but that doesn't mean I want to keep re-posting such large posts. I've said before, my favorite are quick 1 or 2 line responses... Doing so, gets to page 18 very quickly, especially when I'm replying to numerous people.


Who asked you to re-post it? Is it that hard for you to rephrase and consolidate? I'm sure, if you were a human being of average mental capacity, you'd be able to put together a paragraph that states your position in clear and concise terms.

Junior high schoolers are asked to do as much when they write a paper. Granted, It'd be tough for you to achieve their levels of success, but you'd think it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to give it the old college try.

And this is the issue.
#913 Oct 25 2011 at 12:30 PM Rating: Default
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Eske wrote:
But honestly, are you really concerned about the potential "wasted time" of trying to rephrase things? Really? Gonna try to pull that one on page 18?


Yes.. posting in this forum is my hobby. So, I spend time doing it, but that doesn't mean I want to keep re-posting such large posts. I've said before, my favorite are quick 1 or 2 line responses... Doing so, gets to page 18 very quickly, especially when I'm replying to numerous people.


Who asked you to re-post it? Is it that hard for you to rephrase and consolidate? I'm sure, if you were a human being of average mental capacity, you'd be able to put together a paragraph that states your position in clear and concise terms.

Junior high schoolers are asked to do as much when they write a paper. Granted, It'd be tough for you to achieve their levels of success, but you'd think it wouldn't be too much to ask for you to give it the old college try.


If the problem is that you don't want read, then say so. What I wrote is clear, can it be more concise, yes. Can it be as concise as you want it? No.

Here's the thing. You all ALWAYS make the dumbest interpretation of every statement if there exist a single crack. As a result, I can't make ANY assumptions.

When you all quit making the dumbest assumptions and interpretations as opposed to the more logical ones when something is implied, then I can do that. What ends up happening, I end up spending so much time countering stupid assumptions, so I just add them in at the beginning, so all you can do is reply to MY argument, not a made up argument.

People don't want to argue a legitimate argument. They want to argue "You don't want homos to see you in the shower!", because that's what they are used to.
#914 Oct 25 2011 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alma wrote:
What I wrote is clear
-ly wrong and further embarrassing to anyone that's a soldier, but never mind that. Wouldn't want facts and reality to get in the way with the misguided rhetoric any twelve year old could see through.
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#915 Oct 25 2011 at 12:37 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
It is, however, a measure of how the courts view it in regards to "discrimination".


Great, so traditional marriage isn't discrimination. Glad you agree.

Here's the thing. What is voted on as success is highly determined what party is in office. You can't prove that abortion, is right or wrong no matter what the courts say. The other part relies on society. As time changes, people change. Unless you believe morality is dynamic, then it shouldn't matter if everyone support the death penalty, it's either right or wrong.


Jophiel wrote:


Are you saying there's no place for bona fide occupational qualifications in the workplace?



I said the exact opposite. HTF did you confuse that? Did you even read my other post?


Edited, Oct 25th 2011 8:38pm by Almalieque
#916 Oct 25 2011 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
Alma wrote:
What I wrote is clear
-ly wrong and further embarrassing to anyone that's a soldier, but never mind that. Wouldn't want facts and reality to get in the way with the misguided rhetoric any twelve year old could see through.


Is there a point to your crying?
#917 Oct 25 2011 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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You couldn't tell the point was my calling you a useless embarrassment? And you wonder why no one takes you serious. Sad, really. Can spell it out and you still don't get it.
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#918 Oct 25 2011 at 12:45 PM Rating: Excellent
alma wrote:
Do you or do you not think it's a logical discrimination to cast an actor/actress of a certain skin color to portray a person of the said skin color?


i don't think it's discrimination, just like it isn't discrimination to cast Tom Hanks as a gay dude.

and i still think your no **** shorts solve post 206 unless you've got an argument.
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#919 Oct 25 2011 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't Alma always saying that it's not the same thing to point out that discrimination against race and sexuality are essentially the same thing? I'm fairly sure it's always his argument that sexuality is special, now he's trying to say it's not.

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.
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#920 Oct 25 2011 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
You couldn't tell the point was my calling you a useless embarrassment? And you wonder why no one takes you serious. Sad, really. Can spell it out and you still don't get it.


Embarrassment? Lol.. I was holding my tongue for a quite number of years to try to keep it "professional" on a lolforum, but it appears you lack the said professionalism.

My former 3 time offense underage drinking in the field Soldier is less embarrassing to the U.S. Army, or Military for that matter, than you. You have this ridiculous bias against officers and authority which explains you losing your rank. HTF can a guy who LOST their rank talk about embarrassment?

Your attitude and a lack of respect is the reason you are where you are now. Obviously other are others who felt the same way or you would be at least a SFC by now.

I'm doing my job. I don't suck up to no one and I take care of my Soldiers. I have Soldiers (new and old) continuously asking me for help and assistance.

So, before you go around calling people an "embarrassment", you need to look yourself in the mirror.

Omegavegeta wrote:
alma wrote:
Do you or do you not think it's a logical discrimination to cast an actor/actress of a certain skin color to portray a person of the said skin color?


i don't think it's discrimination, just like it isn't discrimination to cast Tom Hanks as a gay dude.

and i still think your no **** shorts solve post 206 unless you've got an argument.


So please give me your definition of discrimination and how denying someone a job to provide money for their family based on their skin color isn't discrimination.


Edit: Oh, let's play your game. I don't think telling someone to conceal their sexuality is discrimination. Wow, that's easy.. Is that how that works?


Edited, Oct 25th 2011 9:00pm by Almalieque
#921 Oct 25 2011 at 1:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
If the problem is that you don't want read, then say so. What I wrote is clear, can it be more concise, yes. Can it be as concise as you want it? No.

Here's the thing. You all ALWAYS make the dumbest interpretation of every statement if there exist a single crack. As a result, I can't make ANY assumptions.

When you all quit making the dumbest assumptions and interpretations as opposed to the more logical ones when something is implied, then I can do that. What ends up happening, I end up spending so much time countering stupid assumptions, so I just add them in at the beginning, so all you can do is reply to MY argument, not a made up argument.

People don't want to argue a legitimate argument. They want to argue "You don't want homos to see you in the shower!", because that's what they are used to.


You don't think there's the faintest possibility that the reason why nobody makes the interpretations you think that they should of your posts is because you're bad at debating/writing/logic/thinking/life?

Suit yourself. I can only hope that the frustration that you'll continually run into as a result of your inabilities shortens your lifespan a bit.
#922 Oct 25 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Default
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Nilatai wrote:
Isn't Alma always saying that it's not the same thing to point out that discrimination against race and sexuality are essentially the same thing? I'm fairly sure it's always his argument that sexuality is special, now he's trying to say it's not.

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.


I never argued that sexuality was special. I argued that the discrimination against a physical trait is not the same thing as discrimination as a personal trait.

What I'm arguing now is that there are logical discrimination against both physical and personal traits and that sexuality isn't special.

Learn to read.
#923 Oct 25 2011 at 1:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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Alma wrote:
So, before you go around calling people an "embarrassment", you need to look yourself in the mirror.
Ha, the wit of Peewee Herman we got here.

You do your job, huh. Seems you have plenty of time to post on Zam, sir. I can't think of a single deployment I've done that gave me even a minute to post on an internet forum playing semantic games. But you keep telling yourself you're doing a good job. You're the only one that will. Smiley: smile
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#924 Oct 25 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
You couldn't tell the point was my calling you a useless embarrassment? And you wonder why no one takes you serious. Sad, really. Can spell it out and you still don't get it.


Embarrassment? Lol.. I was holding my tongue for a quite number of years to try to keep it "professional" on a lolforum, but it appears you lack the said professionalism.

My former 3 time offense underage drinking in the field Soldier is less embarrassing to the U.S. Army, or Military for that matter, than you. You have this ridiculous bias against officers and authority which explains you losing your rank. HTF can a guy who LOST their rank talk about embarrassment?

Your attitude and a lack of respect is the reason you are where you are now. Obviously other are others who felt the same way or you would be at least a SFC by now.

I'm doing my job. I don't suck up to no one and I take care of my Soldiers. I have Soldiers (new and old) continuously asking me for help and assistance.

So, before you go around calling people an "embarrassment", you need to look yourself in the mirror.

You're a gay man that won't come out and you live with your parents. That's pretty embarrassing.
#925 Oct 25 2011 at 1:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Great, so traditional marriage isn't discrimination. Glad you agree.

Smiley: laugh I guess you felt like you had to run away from the jobs thing to some safer-ground strawman.

Quote:
What is voted on as success is highly determined what party is in office.

Simplistic but not especially accurate in this scenario for multiple reasons.

Quote:
I said the exact opposite. HTF did you confuse that? Did you even read my other post?

Because the purpose of BFOQs is to establish what does and doesn't count as discrimination and you're still crying about the lack of black actors playing Lief Erickson and demanding that we all call it discrimination.
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#926 Oct 25 2011 at 1:13 PM Rating: Default
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Eske Esquire wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If the problem is that you don't want read, then say so. What I wrote is clear, can it be more concise, yes. Can it be as concise as you want it? No.

Here's the thing. You all ALWAYS make the dumbest interpretation of every statement if there exist a single crack. As a result, I can't make ANY assumptions.

When you all quit making the dumbest assumptions and interpretations as opposed to the more logical ones when something is implied, then I can do that. What ends up happening, I end up spending so much time countering stupid assumptions, so I just add them in at the beginning, so all you can do is reply to MY argument, not a made up argument.

People don't want to argue a legitimate argument. They want to argue "You don't want homos to see you in the shower!", because that's what they are used to.


You don't think there's the faintest possibility that the reason why nobody makes the interpretations you think that they should of your posts is because you're bad at debating/writing/logic/thinking/life?

Suit yourself. I can only hope that the frustration that you'll continually run into as a result of your inabilities shortens your lifespan a bit.


No.

I'm not naive. I realize some stuff I say maybe misleading, not clear, etc., but when I counter you with a quote, then that wasn't the case. There are many times where I say something very clear and people just ignore it.

What part of the below statements are difficult to understand?

"Just like current discrimination practices don't justify other forms of justification, neither does being affected by a form of discrimination justifies its removal. "

"but just as I said earlier in this thread, if you're accepting discrimination (just as with SSM), one doesn't automatically justify the other. You have to exclusively argue for your argument. "
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