Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Obamer's job billFollow

#102 Sep 15 2011 at 7:53 AM Rating: Decent
******
41,361 posts
I'll answer your questions, and use really small words so you can understand, once you tell us why you hate America so much.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#103 Sep 15 2011 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,616 posts
varusword75 wrote:
Lagaga,

Because you like unemployment being so high?

Eliminate all corporate taxes
That won't get them to invest in America. That'll give them more money to invest elsewhere. They need a reason to put that money in America, as opposed to somewhere cheaper and corporate taxes aren't it. Tax credits may not be the answer, but 0 corporate taxes aren't either. 0 corporate taxes may help get them to relocate corporate offices, but the bulk of the jobs will still be elsewhere.
____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#104 Sep 15 2011 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*****
11,711 posts
What we really need to do is to compete less for low wage mass production jobs and more on higher end tech jobs. Parts of the country that are doing this have already recovered.

It's insanity to compete against someone getting 1/10-1/100th of the wage for the same job and then complain about the corporate structure. It's not the problem, it's strictly arbitrage. Those traditionally trained in the mass production jobs can be shifted to service sectors, or to fixed point mass production jobs(in sectors like food production, defense, etc.) or acquire the skills they need to be competitive.
____________________________
What if the bird will not sing?
Nobunaga answers, "Kill it!"
Hideyoshi answers, "Make it want to sing."
Ieyasu answers, "Wait."
Timelordwho answers "Just as Planned."
#105 Sep 15 2011 at 9:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Timelordwho wrote:
What we really need to do is to compete less for low wage mass production jobs and more on higher end tech jobs. Parts of the country that are doing this have already recovered.

The Atlantic article I linked to a while back mentioned this. Tech jobs are getting outsourced quicker after innovation than before. Previously, the stock response was that Malaysia could manufacture all the widgets they want because we'll just move into making microchips (or whatever). Now, as soon as we invent something, it all goes overseas the next day to be churned out by Southeast Asian countries. And forget support jobs or even some engineering/development positions. Once the base work is done, out it goes across the ocean.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 10:55am by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#106 Sep 15 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Excellent
Prodigal Son
*****
19,627 posts
So, what you're saying is we're screwed? Our economy is going to be based on everyone selling lattes to each other...
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#107 Sep 15 2011 at 11:00 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,437 posts
Don't forget health care. Those baby boomers are retiring and are going to need people to feed them their pills. Smiley: nod
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#108 Sep 15 2011 at 11:43 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Debalic wrote:
So, what you're saying is we're screwed?

Beats me. But the problem with "Oh, we'll just become a service sector economy" is that someone needs to have a job to afford those services. We're not all just going to go around sanitizing one another's telephones.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#109 Sep 15 2011 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,437 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Debalic wrote:
So, what you're saying is we're screwed?

Beats me. But the problem with "Oh, we'll just become a service sector economy" is that someone needs to have a job to afford those services.


The Chinese? Smiley: clown
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#110 Sep 15 2011 at 12:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
That's a hell of a commute just to sanitize telephones.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#111 Sep 15 2011 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Meat Popsicle
Avatar
*****
10,437 posts
Well of course they'd just ship the phones here and we'll ship them back when we're done. It's cheaper then doing it there. Which reminds me I need to brush up on my fake Beijing accent if I want that opening in the call center. Smiley: nod

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 11:24am by someproteinguy
____________________________
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
#112 Sep 15 2011 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
*****
19,539 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Timelordwho wrote:
What we really need to do is to compete less for low wage mass production jobs and more on higher end tech jobs. Parts of the country that are doing this have already recovered.

The Atlantic article I linked to a while back mentioned this. Tech jobs are getting outsourced quicker after innovation than before. Previously, the stock response was that Malaysia could manufacture all the widgets they want because we'll just move into making microchips (or whatever). Now, as soon as we invent something, it all goes overseas the next day to be churned out by Southeast Asian countries. And forget support jobs or even some engineering/development positions. Once the base work is done, out it goes across the ocean.


I used to be uniformly against having tech support in India, until I discovered the major benefit: Work that I need to have done at 1AM EST can be done by them at 2PM HST. So instead of me having to crawl out of bed to access the servers remotely in the middle of the night, I can have someone else access it remotely while I merrily snooze away.

Same thing goes the other way too - some Chinese tech support is outsourced to the US, so work can be done on their data centers in the middle of the night, when it's broad daylight here in the US.

Manufacturing, on the other hand, doesn't get that excuse.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and the League of Extraordinary Crafters
#113 Sep 15 2011 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Or, you know, someone just works third shift in that country for 15% of what they'd pay a US phone jockey.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#114 Sep 15 2011 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Boehner's jobs speech wrote:
And lastly, if we want to create a better environment for job creation, politicians of all stripes can leave the ‘my way or the highway’ philosophy behind.

The all-or-nothing approach is not a workable mindset if we’re serious about getting our economy on its feet again.
Boehner's jobs speech wrote:
Tax increases, however, are not a viable option for the Joint Committee.

Ah, words. So easy to say. So hard to say sincerely. Smiley: laugh
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#115 Sep 15 2011 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
Prodigal Son
*****
19,627 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Or, you know, someone just works third shift in that country for 15% of what they'd pay a US phone jockey.

When I was younger and more hardy, I often went for the late shift premiums. Of course, for awhile that was only a three-hour difference so I could help Paramount Pictures executives find their contact lists, but it was something.
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#116 Sep 15 2011 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
Gurue
*****
16,232 posts
This is moderately relevant and I thought it was an interesting take on things:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/09/14/opinion/carville-white-house-advice/index.html?on.cnn=1

Quote:
As I watch the Republican debates, I realize that we are on the brink of a crazy person running our nation. I sit in front of the television and shudder at the thought of one of these creationism-loving, global-warming-denying, immigration-bashing, Social-Security-cutting, clean-air-hating, mortality-fascinated, Wall-Street-protecting Republicans running my country.
The course we are on is not working. The hour is late, and the need is great. Fire. Indict. Fight.


Carville is basically telling Obama to shape up.
#117 Sep 15 2011 at 5:12 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Lagaga,

Because you like unemployment being so high?

Eliminate all corporate taxes
That won't get them to invest in America. That'll give them more money to invest elsewhere.


While I'm not arguing for zero corporate taxes here, your response is somewhat absurd. It can only give them "more money to invest elsewhere" if they already had money invested in America. Think about it.

Everything else staying the same, if a company gets to keep more of its profits it generates in the US, it will invest more of its business in the US. I'll point out again that if the "all or nothing" mentality you seem to assume is the case were really true there wouldn't be any corporate employment in the US right now. Clearly, even at current costs and tax rates, there are corporate jobs in the US. It stands to reason then that if we reduce those costs and those taxes that there will be more jobs.

Why would you think otherwise?


Quote:
They need a reason to put that money in America, as opposed to somewhere cheaper and corporate taxes aren't it.


And decreased taxes in the US isn't a reason to put that money in America? Again, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Your clearly missing something in your premise.


Quote:
Tax credits may not be the answer, but 0 corporate taxes aren't either. 0 corporate taxes may help get them to relocate corporate offices, but the bulk of the jobs will still be elsewhere.


I'll ask again: Why are there any corporate jobs in the US at all today then? You're missing something, and it's a big piece of the puzzle. The reality is that the gulf in terms of cost to operate a business is not as great as you think. A seemingly small nudge in one direction can have significant impact on domestic job creation.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 4:13pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#118 Sep 15 2011 at 5:19 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Or, you know, someone just works third shift in that country for 15% of what they'd pay a US phone jockey.


People who are actually qualified enough to solve real problems don't want to work off shift no matter what country they're in. Or are you culturally biased enough to assume that a guy with a software engineering degree and 5+ years experienced is going to be willing to work graveyard shift just because he has brown skin? Mighty white of ya there!


I'll give you the answer from personal experience: He doesn't and he wont. Some companies have mistakenly tried to do exactly what you're describing and painfully realized the error they'd made. That's why in the tech world right now, no one talks about just outsourcing services anymore. They do talk about globalizing it, but it's really not the same thing. They've adopted a "follow the sun" model for these sorts of things. It actually works really well, but it's not the job stealer that some people fear.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#119 Sep 15 2011 at 5:48 PM Rating: Good
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
14,042 posts
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Or, you know, someone just works third shift in that country for 15% of what they'd pay a US phone jockey.


People who are actually qualified enough to solve real problems don't want to work off shift no matter what country they're in. Or are you culturally biased enough to assume that a guy with a software engineering degree and 5+ years experienced is going to be willing to work graveyard shift just because he has brown skin? Mighty white of ya there!


I'll give you the answer from personal experience: He doesn't and he wont. Some companies have mistakenly tried to do exactly what you're describing and painfully realized the error they'd made. That's why in the tech world right now, no one talks about just outsourcing services anymore. They do talk about globalizing it, but it's really not the same thing. They've adopted a "follow the sun" model for these sorts of things. It actually works really well, but it's not the job stealer that some people fear.


The company I work for is finding this out the hard way. Here in the US, our qualified personnel (myself included) are paid very low. For the area it's OK, but for a national average, it's below average. As a salaried engineer, with a four year degree and 5 1/2 years experience, I make the same or even less than the people working under me because of overtime. And it's not a ton of overtime, that's how close hourly wages are to qualified salaried employees' salaries. They went down to Mexico to open business, and realized that qualified persons have more options down there, pretty much everyone has something available in the area. They can't do what they do here and say "Where else are you going to go?" because down there, 25-75 miles can open a lot more options for work than 25-75 miles can here. Lucky for them (and unlucky for me) I can control most of the machines from the States, and can provide support and troubleshooting from my desk here. I don't like doing it... but I have to.
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#120 Sep 15 2011 at 7:14 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Way to go right for the race card, Gbaji Smiley: laugh

I was speaking more about lower tier tech support. You know, the stuff we're pretending Mildred from the plant can jump right into when the plant moves to Indonesia. Or maybe you think everyone will become highly qualified engineers or something. Or maybe you just had the racist strawman argument checked out for too long and and to use it now before you got late fees. Who knows.

Here's a fun experiment: Call consumer tech support for pretty much any company at 1:00pm local time. Let me know if you reach sunny Lincoln, Nebraska or moonlit Calcutta, India.

Edited, Sep 15th 2011 8:19pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#121 Sep 16 2011 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
Soulless Internet Tiger
******
34,616 posts
gbaji wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
varusword75 wrote:
Lagaga,

Because you like unemployment being so high?

Eliminate all corporate taxes
That won't get them to invest in America. That'll give them more money to invest elsewhere.


While I'm not arguing for zero corporate taxes here, your response is somewhat absurd. It can only give them "more money to invest elsewhere" if they already had money invested in America. Think about it.
If I manufacture goods in Mexico and sell them in America, I've earned taxable revenue in America. Try considering that there may be other options than the ones you first assume, because this one wasn't way out in left field.

I'd answer the rest of your questions, but you "should" be able to noodle out a relatively common sense answer by restarting your position to the one I just clarified.


____________________________
Donate. One day it could be your family.
Need a hotel at a great rate? More hotels being added weekly.

An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come. Victor Hugo

#122 Sep 16 2011 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Although not very much if you sell through a super low margin company.
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#123 Sep 16 2011 at 11:55 AM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
*****
19,539 posts
While yeah, the phone jockeys can do some of the basic stuff during the graveyard shift on any continent, the tech support I was refering to was more along Gbaji's line, troubleshooting and diagnosing very intricate errors, reconfiguring domains, fixing VB or Exchange errors, remounting BDRs, you name it. They've got it assembly lined, but that work is done in India at 11PM EST, in Europe at 5AM EST, and in the US at 11AM EST.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 1:56pm by catwho
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and the League of Extraordinary Crafters
#124 Sep 16 2011 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
catwho wrote:
the tech support I was refering to was more along Gbaji's line, troubleshooting and diagnosing very intricate errors, reconfiguring domains, fixing VB or Exchange errors, remounting BDRs, you name it.

And this is the plan for laid off foundry workers? Gotcha.

Not that working manufacturing or whatever means you're dumb and can't learn computer engineering but there's a decreasing number of people needed in each skill tier and saying "Yeah! We'll just become a service tech economy of highly skilled computer engineers answering phone calls from Bangladesh when it's midnight there!" isn't exactly a compelling solution. People were proclaiming this in 1998 and you can see how far its gotten us (and even worse with the collapse of domestic manufacturing last decade).
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#125 Sep 16 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Although not very much if you sell through a super low margin company.


This. The "taxable profit" generated in the US is a function of the difference between the costs of the materials when they are shipped into the country and the retail price when it's sold. Why on earth would the same company make goods in Mexico to ship into the US to sell? If they've gone through the time and expense of building their manufacturing plant in Mexico, they'll spin that division off into a separate company headquartered in Mexico, and just buy their goods from that company. This way they only pay taxes on the profits generated in each country (um... which is less than the other way around).

Lowering taxes in the US isn't going to affect that part of it much. However, it might affect the decision as to whether or not to operate various parts of a business in the US in the first place. It's not the sole factor, but it is one that has an effect. Certainly, everything else staying the same, increasing taxes on US business will have a negative effect on jobs created in the US.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#126 Sep 16 2011 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Jophiel wrote:
catwho wrote:
the tech support I was refering to was more along Gbaji's line, troubleshooting and diagnosing very intricate errors, reconfiguring domains, fixing VB or Exchange errors, remounting BDRs, you name it.

And this is the plan for laid off foundry workers? Gotcha.


No. This is a counter to the assumption that every time a US company hires someone in India it means that a job was lost in the US. You're the one creating this false dilemma about factory workers losing their jobs being somehow connected to this.


If you want factory work to come back to the US, how about pressuring your representatives to lay off the ridiculous environmental restrictions, government red tape, excessive employment regulations, and dozens of other things that affect the total cost of operating a manufacturing plant in the US many times more than just the wages paid to the employees. We could pay line workers in Taiwan the equivalent of $100k/year for every single one of them and it would still be more cost effective to build a fab there than in the US.

The causes of manufacturing job loss are far broader than just one factor. It's pretty much the entire liberal domestic policy which drives them away. And no amount of claiming to fight for jobs and jumping up and down lamenting the loss of those jobs changes that. You guys make it nearly impossible to make a profit operating those businesses in the US and then blame the companies for moving elsewhere. I have always and will always find that baffling. It's like a crazed serial killer running through the girls dorm with a bloody knife wondering why all the cute girls are running away from him. Come back! I'm really a nice guy once you get to know me! Smiley: lol
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#127 Sep 16 2011 at 3:26 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
No. This is a counter to the assumption that every time a US company hires someone in India it means that a job was lost in the US. You're the one creating this false dilemma about factory workers losing their jobs being somehow connected to this.

You have no idea what "false dilemma" means, don't you? I'm working off the assumptions that jobs outsourced overseas are jobs lost in the US. This is true. This is, in fact, the very definition of "outsourced".

The rest of your standard playbook whining fails to address this. Employment in the manufacturing sector collapsed under Bush and the GOP -- remember outsourcing being a major debate theme in the 2004 Bush/Kerry election? Remember the GOP rank-and-file saying "Oh no, we're just going to make NEW jobs! More sophisticated jobs that won't go away!"

Instead we had lowered household income as people lost their jobs and took low level service positions bolstered by the money movement of the housing bubble. Then that popped and...

...well, to say the GOP was lying in 2004 would be an understatement. But your little "false dilemma!" works too.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#128 Sep 16 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
*****
11,711 posts
Yeah, @#%^ the EPA.
____________________________
What if the bird will not sing?
Nobunaga answers, "Kill it!"
Hideyoshi answers, "Make it want to sing."
Ieyasu answers, "Wait."
Timelordwho answers "Just as Planned."
#129 Sep 16 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
No. This is a counter to the assumption that every time a US company hires someone in India it means that a job was lost in the US. You're the one creating this false dilemma about factory workers losing their jobs being somehow connected to this.

You have no idea what "false dilemma" means, don't you? I'm working off the assumptions that jobs outsourced overseas are jobs lost in the US. This is true. This is, in fact, the very definition of "outsourced".


Technically, that's called "offshored". "Outsourced" simply means to hire an outside company to do work you used to do internally. Outsourced is actually the exact wrong term to use if you're trying to blame a company for hiring people in India instead of the US.

The point is that even ignoring that difference, the word "outsourced" is misused a hell of a lot and presumably was also misused in the Atlantic article mentioned earlier in this thread which prompted this particular series of posts. Many journalists (and the analysts they get their data from as well!) tend to simply count every single job in a given sector created outside the US by a US company as a job that was "outsourced". But as a couple of us have been trying to explain, in many cases these are jobs that would not have been created in the US anyway.

Were some of them offshored? Sure. Were all of them? No. Were even a majority of them? Probably not.

Quote:
Employment in the manufacturing sector collapsed under Bush and the GOP -- remember outsourcing being a major debate theme in the 2004 Bush/Kerry election? Remember the GOP rank-and-file saying "Oh no, we're just going to make NEW jobs! More sophisticated jobs that won't go away!"


And in the tech field (which the article and responding posts were about) jobs have dramatically increased during the time frame in question. We were talking about tech jobs, you injected your little bit about factory jobs. Do you see how that's not really relevant? I'll also point out an amusing bit about how liberals focus selectively on indicators while missing the bigger picture. Liberals obsess over "outsourced" tech jobs in India, while failing to recognize that the total number of tech jobs in the US has increased over the period of time in question. Meanwhile, they also obsess over figures on "jobs created or saved" during the Obama administration, while failing to note that on total we lost jobs. It's kinda amusing if you stop and think about it.

If you want to discuss factory jobs instead, we can do that, but as I already posted, this has a hell of a lot to do with the incredibly unfriendly manufacturing job environment your party has created in the US. Blaming businesses for moving their factories elsewhere after you made it too expensive to operate them here seems kinda ridiculous.

Quote:
Instead we had lowered household income as people lost their jobs and took low level service positions bolstered by the money movement of the housing bubble. Then that popped and...

...well, to say the GOP was lying in 2004 would be an understatement. But your little "false dilemma!" works too.


The false dilemma is the idea that we either outsource tech jobs to India *or* provide wonderful factory jobs in the US. Surely you can see how that's a pretty bizarre correlation. One really has nothing at all to do with the other.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 3:16pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#130 Sep 16 2011 at 4:13 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Although not very much if you sell through a super low margin company.


This. The "taxable profit" generated in the US is a function of the difference between the costs of the materials when they are shipped into the country and the retail price when it's sold. Why on earth would the same company make goods in Mexico to ship into the US to sell? If they've gone through the time and expense of building their manufacturing plant in Mexico, they'll spin that division off into a separate company headquartered in Mexico, and just buy their goods from that company. This way they only pay taxes on the profits generated in each country (um... which is less than the other way around).

Lowering taxes in the US isn't going to affect that part of it much. However, it might affect the decision as to whether or not to operate various parts of a business in the US in the first place. It's not the sole factor, but it is one that has an effect. Certainly, everything else staying the same, increasing taxes on US business will have a negative effect on jobs created in the US.
Lowering taxes in the US will do nothing at all. It might actually decrease jobs as companies decide they don't need the US branch anymore. It certainly won't bring any jobs to the US as the manufacturing isn't done out there for tax reasons.
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
#131 Sep 16 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Sir Xsarus wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Sir Xsarus wrote:
Although not very much if you sell through a super low margin company.


This. The "taxable profit" generated in the US is a function of the difference between the costs of the materials when they are shipped into the country and the retail price when it's sold. Why on earth would the same company make goods in Mexico to ship into the US to sell? If they've gone through the time and expense of building their manufacturing plant in Mexico, they'll spin that division off into a separate company headquartered in Mexico, and just buy their goods from that company. This way they only pay taxes on the profits generated in each country (um... which is less than the other way around).

Lowering taxes in the US isn't going to affect that part of it much. However, it might affect the decision as to whether or not to operate various parts of a business in the US in the first place. It's not the sole factor, but it is one that has an effect. Certainly, everything else staying the same, increasing taxes on US business will have a negative effect on jobs created in the US.
Lowering taxes in the US will do nothing at all. It might actually decrease jobs as companies decide they don't need the US branch anymore.


Huh!? Why would it do that? If anything, it affect the decision of a company to spin off foreign parts of its business. If the taxes paid by a company making and importing goods from Mexico are low enough, they might decide it's not worth making their Mexico production division a separate economic entity. And guess what? That will actually increase the amount of tax revenue paid in the US. Funny how that works!

Quote:
It certainly won't bring any jobs to the US as the manufacturing isn't done out there for tax reasons.


It is one of many factors considered when deciding where to build a factory, or office, or distribution plant, or whatever. Again with the all-or-nothing mentality. You seem to believe that if tax rates aren't the sole factor that they don't matter at all. That's just not true though. Every single thing that affects the profitability of operating a given business in the US will affect the decision to operate it in the US.

And taxes absolutely are part of that. As are a host of other factors. I think the bigger point is that when we look at which political "side" changes those factors in ways that drive away those very manufacturing jobs you're complaining about, it's pretty clear that it's the left doing it. They create the environmental restrictions, labor regulations, health care requirements, and tax rates which all factor into that decision. That's not to say some of those things aren't good ideas. But the trade off is that we've driven away manufacturing. It would at least be honest to acknowledge this instead of trying to blame the businesses for responding to the conditions that were created.


There is a cost to having those things. It just seems bizarre that some want to pretend that there isn't and never take responsibility for those costs. I mean, does anyone honestly think it makes sense to blame businesses for this? Do people honestly believe that we can levy any cost on their business and they should just accept it and keep paying it and never decide to take their business elsewhere? Where does that idea come from? If every time you walked into a store the prices were twice as high as the store down the street and the employees constantly berated you for being there, wouldn't you take your business down the street? Of course you would. And no one would blame you for that.


Why is this different?
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#132 Sep 16 2011 at 4:38 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
******
21,733 posts
gbaji wrote:
If the taxes paid by a company making and importing goods from Mexico are low enough, they might decide it's not worth making their Mexico production division a separate economic entity.
Really? Outsourcing isn't about paying lower wages? Smiley: dubious



Edited, Sep 16th 2011 5:39pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
Stylish plugin for Firefox | ZAM/Allakhazam Widescreen/ad-free Stylish theme
#133 Sep 16 2011 at 6:10 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
bsphil wrote:
gbaji wrote:
If the taxes paid by a company making and importing goods from Mexico are low enough, they might decide it's not worth making their Mexico production division a separate economic entity.
Really? Outsourcing isn't about paying lower wages? Smiley: dubious


It's about increasing profits. To the degree that wages are the significant factor, then it can be about wages. But it can also be about costs of constructing a factory. It can be energy costs to run the factory. It can be import costs for the materials you're going to use in your factory. It can be shipping costs to send materials from your factory to market. And yeah, it can also be the taxes levied on the activity you do in your factory.

There are a whole lot of factors that are involved in that decision. But if you're honest about this, you'll realize that most of the factors that tend to drive manufacturing jobs away from the US are things that liberals have imposed, not conservatives. And before you go there, once again: it's not an all or nothing equation. Some regulations and restrictions and taxes and labor benefits can be borne by an industry. But the more you increase those costs, the more you're going to push certain industries away (like manufacturing).

It's a matter of degrees. It doesn't happen all at once. Manufacturing has been leaving the US for over 30 years. To suggest that this is some new problem that just popped up in the last handful of years and made our economy a mess is pretty ridiculous.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#134 Sep 16 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
And in the tech field (which the article and responding posts were about) jobs have dramatically increased during the time frame in question. We were talking about tech jobs, you injected your little bit about factory jobs.

Erm, no. TLW mentioned that we needed to transition from the jobs we've lost to other nations into tech jobs. I mentioned, in response, the Atlantic article talking about how "we'll all just work tech jobs" hasn't panned out. And the "article" wasn't just about tech jobs, it was about the crumbling American middle class in general.

Try and keep up, ok? Just... try?

Quote:
Liberals obsess over "outsourced" tech jobs in India, while failing to recognize that the total number of tech jobs in the US has increased over the period of time in question.

Well, no. By in large, "liberals" are more concerned about losing jobs to other nations in general. But nice strawman again!

Call me when the number of manufacturing jobs lost to other nations is smaller than that amazing increase in tech jobs, ok? Or maybe just cover your ears and holler that it doesn't matter so stop talking about them.

Quote:
Manufacturing has been leaving the US for over 30 years. To suggest that this is some new problem that just popped up in the last handful of years and made our economy a mess is pretty ridiculous.

The rate at which it's been leaving skyrocketed in the last decade. In fact, under the last president, the US saw sustained shedding of manufacturing jobs during a non-recession period for the first time and it was a loss as significant as that from previous recessions. That is, in fact, a "new" problem.

Edited, Sep 16th 2011 7:53pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#135 Sep 16 2011 at 7:36 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,427 posts
Quote:
It's a matter of degrees. It doesn't happen all at once. Manufacturing has been leaving the US for over 30 years. To suggest that this is some new problem that just popped up in the last handful of years and made our economy a mess is pretty ridiculous.


Ya since Reagen started @#%^ing up the economy.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. @#%^ OFF YOU. @#%^ YOUR BULLsh*t SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS @#%^ING sh*tTY BINARY ASS. ALL DAY LONG.

#136 Sep 16 2011 at 7:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*****
11,711 posts
Quote:

Erm, no. TLW mentioned that we needed to transition from the jobs we've lost to other nations into tech jobs. I mentioned, in response, the Atlantic article talking about how "we'll all just work tech jobs" hasn't panned out. And the "article" wasn't just about tech jobs, it was about the crumbling American middle class in general.


Not just tech jobs, but skilled professions that would justify the higher labor costs of US workers. Those jobs, complemented with ones that cannot be moved as easily (ie. agriculture, mining, service sector, etc). There is a reason Northeast job markets are rebounding faster than the areas where more factories and fabrication plants were located, even adjusting for the troubles of the auto industry. The recession has only sped up the migration of those jobs, not created it.
____________________________
What if the bird will not sing?
Nobunaga answers, "Kill it!"
Hideyoshi answers, "Make it want to sing."
Ieyasu answers, "Wait."
Timelordwho answers "Just as Planned."
#137 Sep 16 2011 at 8:20 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
And in the tech field (which the article and responding posts were about) jobs have dramatically increased during the time frame in question. We were talking about tech jobs, you injected your little bit about factory jobs.

Erm, no. TLW mentioned that we needed to transition from the jobs we've lost to other nations into tech jobs. I mentioned, in response, the Atlantic article talking about how "we'll all just work tech jobs" hasn't panned out.


But it did so by repeating the same flawed "all jobs created by US companies overseas are jobs lost domestically" argument. That's what I was pointing out. The article did not support the claim you were making (or did so using a poor premise).

Quote:
[
Quote:
Liberals obsess over "outsourced" tech jobs in India, while failing to recognize that the total number of tech jobs in the US has increased over the period of time in question.

Well, no. By in large, "liberals" are more concerned about losing jobs to other nations in general.


No. I'd say that liberals are more concerned about making it look like we're losing jobs to other nations in order to avoid the larger problems with our job market. We aren't "losing jobs" to India in the tech fields Joph. Those claiming this use the same false statistical analysis methods I mentioned above (assume every job created in another country was lost to the US). But that growth in other areas is just that: Growth in other areas. It does not significantly impact the job market here.

Quote:
Call me when the number of manufacturing jobs lost to other nations is smaller than that amazing increase in tech jobs, ok? Or maybe just cover your ears and holler that it doesn't matter so stop talking about them.


Do you know what's preventing even more growth of tech jobs in the US? Qualified people. I'm serious. The problem is that some people want to protect unskilled or low skilled jobs, while simultaneously making it impossible for those jobs to be competitive here. That's the factory worker that you argue wont be able to shift to an in-demand tech job btw.

What do you think we should do though? That same person will *never* be productive working in a factory in the US either. Not so long as we keep our current set of regulations which make such workplaces incredibly expensive to operate. So you'd rather we spend massive amounts of money subsidizing whole industries to pay the higher costs of doing business which we created just so we can protect workers who can't find other jobs that are more useful and cost effective?

At least "shift them into some sort of tech job" is workable and for those who do find work in those areas, they are productive rather than anti-productive. I'll point out that you haven't provided any sort of alternative solution, much less explained how the Democrats policies will somehow magically save us. We can't just keep using government money to protect industries from competition. It doesn't work in the long run. What it does do, however, is make the labor gap worse.

Quote:
Quote:
Manufacturing has been leaving the US for over 30 years. To suggest that this is some new problem that just popped up in the last handful of years and made our economy a mess is pretty ridiculous.

The rate at which it's been leaving skyrocketed in the last decade. In fact, under the last president, the US saw sustained shedding of manufacturing jobs during a non-recession period for the first time and it was a loss as significant as that from previous recessions. That is, in fact, a "new" problem.


No. It's not. The difference is that Bush and the GOP have been less willing to spend government money to prop up those failing industries. That's not the same thing. The economic effects have been there and been growing for decades. It's not like manufacturing magically got cheaper in other countries and more expensive in the US just in the last decade Joph. Not that much more.

Can you point to any policies of the Bush administration (other than *not* spending money to protect those jobs) that caused this? It's a natural market force. We will only hurt ourselves by fighting against it. If we want manufacturing jobs to come back to the US, we have to change the things that make manufacturing jobs in the US not cost effective. And subsidies and bailouts are *not* the answer. That's just putting a bandaid over the problem and pushing it onto the next guy.


If the conservative solution to move forward into new jobs is wrong, then what is the right answer? Do you have one? Cause if you don't...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#138 Sep 16 2011 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*****
11,711 posts
Quote:
Do you know what's preventing even more growth of tech jobs in the US? Qualified people. I'm serious.


Yep, I've been talking with people trying to grow companies out here and it's one of their major complaints. A good friend of mine had to bring his Dev center to Canada just for want of skilled coders.
____________________________
What if the bird will not sing?
Nobunaga answers, "Kill it!"
Hideyoshi answers, "Make it want to sing."
Ieyasu answers, "Wait."
Timelordwho answers "Just as Planned."
#139 Sep 16 2011 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Did you even read the article? You seem to be completely winging it.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#140 Sep 17 2011 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
Prodigal Son
*****
19,627 posts
Why bother reading articles? It's obvious!
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#141 Sep 17 2011 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
****
7,427 posts

Debalic wrote:
Why bother reading articles? It's obvious!

Hey now that kind of talk is a slippery slope.
____________________________
HEY GOOGLE. @#%^ OFF YOU. @#%^ YOUR BULLsh*t SEARCH ENGINE IN ITS @#%^ING sh*tTY BINARY ASS. ALL DAY LONG.

#142 Sep 19 2011 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Timelordwho wrote:
Quote:
Do you know what's preventing even more growth of tech jobs in the US? Qualified people. I'm serious.


Yep, I've been talking with people trying to grow companies out here and it's one of their major complaints. A good friend of mine had to bring his Dev center to Canada just for want of skilled coders.


A co-workers wife was one of those laid off by Sony a few months ago (well, technically she quit just before the layoffs because she saw it coming and got a better job offer elsewhere). What's funny is that she keeps getting "better job offers". She was originally going to settle for something just a little bit better than she had. Then she got a better offer. Then another. She briefly worked for one company, had a personality conflict with her manager, quit, and immediately had 3 more "better offers" line up. Just last week she got hired at another job that she really likes (and which pays well) and her inbox and mailbox are still filling up with job offers.

She's not some super employee or anything. Tech based company's really are desperate to hire reasonably qualified people. Even right now.

The problem with Joph's argument is that as long as we keep subsidizing certain industries in order to make them appear to be competitive, we're also making the jobs in those industries appear attractive as well. Add in unions with their typically inflated payscales, and what happens is that people who might have gone into a productive field in their 20s end out working in union shops. By the time they realize this is a trap and their future is pretty much screwed, it's often too late.

If we didn't do that, we wouldn't have the unskilled factory worker wondering how to get a job in a market that has passed her by once that factory she's worked at finally does get closed down. We are creating a gap between what our labor force has to offer and what the job market actually wants. We should stop doing that.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#143 Sep 19 2011 at 2:39 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I too have an anecdote to pass off as data!
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#144 Sep 19 2011 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
Jophiel wrote:
I too have an anecdote to pass off as data!


Anecdotes are data. Just a small sample of data. I guess the question is how many different sources for the same "we can't find enough qualified tech people in the US" data do you have to hear before maybe you suspect that there's some validity to it?
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#145 Sep 19 2011 at 2:54 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
Anecdotes are data.

Smiley: laughSmiley: laughSmiley: laugh
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#146 Sep 19 2011 at 3:57 PM Rating: Excellent
Needs More Smut
Avatar
*****
19,539 posts
There's a difference between a "qualified tech person" and "a highly skilled C# programmer." Hell, I count as a qualified tech person and I even have some graduate business school under my belt now to boot. I'm not sure why I don't have HR headhunters knocking down my door to kidnap me from my office. (They'd have to offer me at least twice as much an hour to get me to leave my cushy position, honestly.)
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and the League of Extraordinary Crafters
#147 Sep 19 2011 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
30,901 posts
catwho wrote:
There's a difference between a "qualified tech person" and "a highly skilled C# programmer." Hell, I count as a qualified tech person and I even have some graduate business school under my belt now to boot. I'm not sure why I don't have HR headhunters knocking down my door to kidnap me from my office. (They'd have to offer me at least twice as much an hour to get me to leave my cushy position, honestly.)


How long has it been since you floated your resume out there though? Do you think that if you were to lose your job that you would have a hard time finding another similar one (in pay at least)?
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#148 Sep 19 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
Prodigal Son
*****
19,627 posts
Well, considering we're devoid of qualified tech people I guess it's a good thing we're defunding schools and turning to Christianity?
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#149 Sep 19 2011 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
Needs More Smut
Avatar
*****
19,539 posts
gbaji wrote:
catwho wrote:
There's a difference between a "qualified tech person" and "a highly skilled C# programmer." Hell, I count as a qualified tech person and I even have some graduate business school under my belt now to boot. I'm not sure why I don't have HR headhunters knocking down my door to kidnap me from my office. (They'd have to offer me at least twice as much an hour to get me to leave my cushy position, honestly.)


How long has it been since you floated your resume out there though? Do you think that if you were to lose your job that you would have a hard time finding another similar one (in pay at least)?


Similar in pay? No. I could go back to the marketing firm I left that is three blocks from my house and probably make the same, or more. But I quit that job because the stress levels were too high.

I only make $11 an hour, which is probably gonna go up a buck in a few weeks when I hit my one year anniversary. That's actually a pretty good wage for my area, where thirty percent of the population makes below poverty wages. More importantly, I only work 30 hours a week since I am in grad school, and I spend a significant amount of my time at the office doing absolutely nothing. (Mondays I work all six hours, but Tues-Fri involves a lot of Internet surfing.) My stress levels at this job are very low - I am good at what I do, and my boss knows it.

Hence, someone would have to offer me double that hourly wage to make me leave (since that would likely entail 40 hours a week and high stress levels again), which isn't going to happen in this town until I have my master's degree in my hot little hands.
____________________________
FFXI: Catwho on Bismarck. Once again a top bard on the server: Dardaubla 90 on 1/6/2014
Thayos wrote:
I can't understand anyone who skips the cutscenes of a Final Fantasy game. That's like going to Texas and not getting barbecue.

FFXIV: Katarh Mest on Lamia - Member of The Swarm and the League of Extraordinary Crafters
#150 Sep 19 2011 at 9:54 PM Rating: Excellent
******
30,625 posts
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I too have an anecdote to pass off as data!


Anecdotes are data. Just a small sample of data. I guess the question is how many different sources for the same "we can't find enough qualified tech people in the US" data do you have to hear before maybe you suspect that there's some validity to it?



I'll remember that the next time a health care "debate" pops up in here and I explain (again) my situation and those of a client of mine.

How many of those samples of data do you have to hear before maybe you suspect that there's some validity to it...?
____________________________
Kurt Vonnegut (1922-2007) wrote:
I am eternally grateful.. for my knack of finding in great books, some of them very funny books, reason enough to feel honored to be alive, no matter what else might be going on.
#151 Sep 19 2011 at 10:49 PM Rating: Excellent
What kind of work are you doing catwho?

Edited, Sep 19th 2011 11:50pm by Xsarus
____________________________
01001001 00100000 01001100 01001001 01001011 01000101 00100000 01000011 01000001 01001011 01000101
You'll always be stupid, you'll just be stupid with more information in your brain
Forum FAQ
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 59 All times are in CDT
Aethien, Jimpadan, Jophiel, Nobby, Poldaran, Xsarus, Anonymous Guests (53)