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#52 Aug 31 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
Gbaji, rape is not ever the woman's fault. Ever.


I agree 100%. What in my post made you think otherwise?

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While it is prudent for people to protect themselves from certain crimes, they should not be just cast aside as 'she had it coming' for not doing so.


Which isn't what I said either. Getting mugged isn't the fault of the victim, but that doesn't remove the idiocy of walking through a bad part of town at midnight with hundred dollar bills hanging out of your pockets. Having your car stolen isn't your fault, but it's still a good idea to lock your doors. We live in a world in which there are people who will victimize you if they can. No sense making yourself a target.
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#53 Aug 31 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
This. I'm not talking about what you wear or where you go. I'm talking about making smart choices when in social settings. Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to. Even ignoring the question of what was actually said or done when it was just the two of them, we can correctly say that there were numerous things she could have done to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.


I also happen to believe that pushing the "press charges after the fact" side of the issue sends mixed messages. You're essentially teaching young women that they *should* expect to be perfectly safe even if they are passed out drunk, half dressed, in the bedroom of a guy she just met a couple hours ago and has been dirty dancing with. Sure. In a perfect world, we should expect every guy to be a perfect gentleman in any and all situations. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

We should be teaching young women to assume that they are *not* safe in that situation, and that they should take every precaution to not end out there. We should be teaching young women to make their own sexual choices on their own terms, and to not ever adopt a "wait and see how I feel later" approach. The guys who victimize women look for that. They know that they can take advantage of that and get that woman to take one step after another until she ends out somewhere she never wanted to be in the first place. And no amount of teaching women to press charges after the fact prevents this, and in the overwhelming number of cases, it doesn't help after the fact either.


I'll also disagree with the idea that people aren't embarrassed about other forms of crime. Date rape (aside from the obvious difference) is very similar to people who are scammed. Most people are very embarrassed when they get taken by a scam artist and often don't come forward in those cases either. It's the same sort of methodology as well. The scam artist looks for an easy mark. This is someone who seems willing to take that first step, then a second, then a third, etc, without stopping to think where it's all leading. People get scammed because they don't set a firm stopping point ahead of time. They don't say "At no point am I going to hand this person any cash". And for that reason, when the scammer asks them to hand them cash, they do it. Similarly, date rape victims didn't put a firm stopping point in their mind. They didn't start the evening saying "At no point am I going to kiss a guy", or "At no point am I going to take anyone home, or let them take me to their place", or even "I will only have 3 drinks this evening".


In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


You are a disgusting creature.
#54 Aug 31 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
You are a disgusting creature.


Why? Saying that it's a good idea for a woman to take some precautions when she goes out so as to avoid ending out a victim? How the **** is that "disgusting"?
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#55 Aug 31 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
You are a disgusting creature.


Why? Saying that it's a good idea for a woman to take some precautions when she goes out so as to avoid ending out a victim? How the **** is that "disgusting"?


By blaming the woman. Which is what you did in every paragraph of your overlong post.
#56 Aug 31 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.
#57 Aug 31 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
By blaming the woman. Which is what you did in every paragraph of your overlong post.


There's a difference between placing blame and suggesting caution. WTF? So if I advise you to lock your car doors, I'm blaming you if your car is stolen? If I suggest it's a bad idea to walk alone through a bad part of town late at night, I'm blaming you?

Why is it, that on this one issue, some people interpret any suggestion of taking steps to avoid becoming a victim as "blame". What's funny (not really) is that what you're doing is proving my point. It's because of this mentality that any suggestion that women can and should take precautions is equated with placing blame and rejected (angrily) that we end out sending exactly the mixed signals I was talking about earlier.
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#58 Aug 31 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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No one is saying that women shouldn't be cautious. But whether or not you mean for it to come across this way, gbaji, you sound like you're making excuses for men. Like they're not able to think for themselves and control themselves, no matter what or how the woman is presenting herself.
#59 Aug 31 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There's a difference between placing blame and suggesting caution. WTF? So if I advise you to lock your car doors, I'm blaming you if your car is stolen? If I suggest it's a bad idea to walk alone through a bad part of town late at night, I'm blaming you?

Why is it, that on this one issue, some people interpret any suggestion of taking steps to avoid becoming a victim as "blame". What's funny (not really) is that what you're doing is proving my point. It's because of this mentality that any suggestion that women can and should take precautions is equated with placing blame and rejected (angrily) that we end out sending exactly the mixed signals I was talking about earlier.


Basically what you've said, gbaji, is that women should be taught not to kiss, make out, have any alcohol, or be alone with a man if she doesn't intend to have *** with him. You've said that, instead of teaching that no means no, teach a woman when to say no.

It's fucking disgusting.
#60 Aug 31 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.


The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves. So let's cut the crap and stop pretending that this is about confusing anyone. Given that this is the assumption involved, isn't it ridiculous to fight so hard to argue that a woman should always be perfectly safe if she does all those things and then goes back to his place?

It's not always safe, else we wouldn't be having this conversation. Thus, it's prudent to perhaps *not* take that step involving being alone with the guy unless you've already decided to have *** with him *or* you are absolutely 100% positive that he's not going to push the issue. It still amazes me that so many people have such a strong negative reaction to the mere suggestion that perhaps we should be teaching women to avoid that situation.
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#61 Aug 31 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves. So let's cut the crap and stop pretending that this is about confusing anyone. Given that this is the assumption involved, isn't it ridiculous to fight so hard to argue that a woman should always be perfectly safe if she does all those things and then goes back to his place?


No, that's not ridiculous. It is ridiculous to say that a woman owes a man ***. It is ridiculous to suggest that a man cannot control himself from raping a woman if he pays for her dinner, popcorn, and takes her back to his place.

Good lord, you're disgusting.
#62 Aug 31 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.


The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves.

Then we need to be teaching these guys that a sock and lotion are still viable alternatives.
#63 Aug 31 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Basically what you've said, gbaji, is that women should be taught not to kiss, make out, have any alcohol, or be alone with a man if she doesn't intend to have *** with him. You've said that, instead of teaching that no means no, teach a woman when to say no.


Yup. Like say "no" when the guy asks you to come with him, alone, to his place after a night of drinking and dancing and making out unless you actually want to have *** with him. Like I said, in an ideal perfect world, he should be a gentleman and accept that you just want to hang out and play parchisee or read poetry or something. But we don't live in that world.

In a perfect world, I shouldn't have to lock my doors. I shouldn't need a password for my computer accounts. I should be able to just keep my money in a pile on my front step. It's just amazing to me that in every other area we accept that each individual should take steps to protect them from criminal activities, but not in this one. In the area of rape, we apparently teach that women should expect to be perfectly safe in any situation, no matter how drunk, no matter how alone, and no matter how briefly they've known the guy they are with.


And I get argument when I say that we're teaching women the wrong thing? Again, you are proving my point.
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#64 Aug 31 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
Then we need to be teaching these guys that a sock and lotion are still viable alternatives.


Let's just teach people not to steal cars or break into homes. How's that working out?
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#65 Aug 31 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Basically what you've said, gbaji, is that women should be taught not to kiss, make out, have any alcohol, or be alone with a man if she doesn't intend to have *** with him. You've said that, instead of teaching that no means no, teach a woman when to say no.


Yup. Like say "no" when the guy asks you to come with him, alone, to his place after a night of drinking and dancing and making out unless you actually want to have *** with him. Like I said, in an ideal perfect world, he should be a gentleman and accept that you just want to hang out and play parchisee or read poetry or something. But we don't live in that world.


And in a perfect world, a woman doesn't change her mind at the last minute. Which happens.

Lord you're such a pig.
#66 Aug 31 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Let's just teach people not to steal cars or break into homes. How's that working out?
About as well as the War on Drugs, the War on Terrorism, and Abstinence Only Education.
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#67 Aug 31 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
No, that's not ridiculous. It is ridiculous to say that a woman owes a man ***.


I never said that.

Quote:
It is ridiculous to suggest that a man cannot control himself from raping a woman if he pays for her dinner, popcorn, and takes her back to his place.


All men? Of course. Some men? Has to be true, else no one would ever be date raped, right? How clear can I make it: The very issue of date rape assumes that some men will not be gentlemen and will not take no for an answer. The case you are labeling as "ridiculous" is an assumed true case.

Quote:
Good lord, you're disgusting.


Sigh. Think with your head.
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#68 Aug 31 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
I guess I'm strange for going to a movie with a woman, having dinner, and maybe even a drink at her house and not raping her.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#69 Aug 31 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And in a perfect world, a woman doesn't change her mind at the last minute. Which happens.


So you're saying that the world is less perfect because women do this? OMG! You're blaming a woman for being raped! You're so disgusting!!!!

You're completely turned around on this issue Belk. Stop knee-jerk responding and think about the issue.

Quote:
Lord you're such a pig.


That's really not very productive.
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#70 Aug 31 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
Gbaji, do you understand that liking a person of the opposite *** doesn't mean you have to forcefully inject ***** into them?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

Almalieque wrote:
I know what a glory hole is, but I wasn't sure what the business part was in reference to.

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#71 Aug 31 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And in a perfect world, a woman doesn't change her mind at the last minute. Which happens.


So you're saying that the world is less perfect because women do this? OMG! You're blaming a woman for being raped! You're so disgusting!!!!

You're completely turned around on this issue Belk. Stop knee-jerk responding and think about the issue.


I'm turned around because I don't think that a woman should be blamed for going to a man's house and having a night cap then getting raped...?

Let me be clear: I have never said that a woman shouldn't be cautious. Of course they should. But you're suggesting that a woman practically cloister herself lest she be raped.
#72 Aug 31 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
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Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?
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#73 Aug 31 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm turned around because I don't think that a woman should be blamed for going to a man's house and having a night cap then getting raped...?


I never said she should be blamed. Not once.

Quote:
Let me be clear: I have never said that a woman shouldn't be cautious. Of course they should.


And yet you have vehemently attacked any suggestion that she take any sort of precautions at all. All I have said in this thread is that women should take precautions and not assume that the guy they're with will be a perfect gentleman once they're alone.

Quote:
But you're suggesting that a woman practically cloister herself lest she be raped.


Nope. There's a whole range between what I've said and that. You're doing that "all or nothing" thing again.

I'm not sure how you equate "avoid ending out alone, drunk, in the bedroom of a guy you only know casually", to "don't date or kiss, or have fun... ever". Bit of an excluded middle there.
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#74 Aug 31 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?
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#75 Aug 31 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?

It's obvious, right?
#76 Aug 31 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?


In other words, no, you don't. You're just a misogynist, own it.
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