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#52 Aug 31 2011 at 3:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
Gbaji, rape is not ever the woman's fault. Ever.


I agree 100%. What in my post made you think otherwise?

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While it is prudent for people to protect themselves from certain crimes, they should not be just cast aside as 'she had it coming' for not doing so.


Which isn't what I said either. Getting mugged isn't the fault of the victim, but that doesn't remove the idiocy of walking through a bad part of town at midnight with hundred dollar bills hanging out of your pockets. Having your car stolen isn't your fault, but it's still a good idea to lock your doors. We live in a world in which there are people who will victimize you if they can. No sense making yourself a target.
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#53 Aug 31 2011 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
This. I'm not talking about what you wear or where you go. I'm talking about making smart choices when in social settings. Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to. Even ignoring the question of what was actually said or done when it was just the two of them, we can correctly say that there were numerous things she could have done to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.


I also happen to believe that pushing the "press charges after the fact" side of the issue sends mixed messages. You're essentially teaching young women that they *should* expect to be perfectly safe even if they are passed out drunk, half dressed, in the bedroom of a guy she just met a couple hours ago and has been dirty dancing with. Sure. In a perfect world, we should expect every guy to be a perfect gentleman in any and all situations. Unfortunately, we don't live in that world.

We should be teaching young women to assume that they are *not* safe in that situation, and that they should take every precaution to not end out there. We should be teaching young women to make their own sexual choices on their own terms, and to not ever adopt a "wait and see how I feel later" approach. The guys who victimize women look for that. They know that they can take advantage of that and get that woman to take one step after another until she ends out somewhere she never wanted to be in the first place. And no amount of teaching women to press charges after the fact prevents this, and in the overwhelming number of cases, it doesn't help after the fact either.


I'll also disagree with the idea that people aren't embarrassed about other forms of crime. Date rape (aside from the obvious difference) is very similar to people who are scammed. Most people are very embarrassed when they get taken by a scam artist and often don't come forward in those cases either. It's the same sort of methodology as well. The scam artist looks for an easy mark. This is someone who seems willing to take that first step, then a second, then a third, etc, without stopping to think where it's all leading. People get scammed because they don't set a firm stopping point ahead of time. They don't say "At no point am I going to hand this person any cash". And for that reason, when the scammer asks them to hand them cash, they do it. Similarly, date rape victims didn't put a firm stopping point in their mind. They didn't start the evening saying "At no point am I going to kiss a guy", or "At no point am I going to take anyone home, or let them take me to their place", or even "I will only have 3 drinks this evening".


In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


You are a disgusting creature.
#54 Aug 31 2011 at 3:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
You are a disgusting creature.


Why? Saying that it's a good idea for a woman to take some precautions when she goes out so as to avoid ending out a victim? How the **** is that "disgusting"?
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#55 Aug 31 2011 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
You are a disgusting creature.


Why? Saying that it's a good idea for a woman to take some precautions when she goes out so as to avoid ending out a victim? How the **** is that "disgusting"?


By blaming the woman. Which is what you did in every paragraph of your overlong post.
#56 Aug 31 2011 at 3:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.
#57 Aug 31 2011 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
By blaming the woman. Which is what you did in every paragraph of your overlong post.


There's a difference between placing blame and suggesting caution. WTF? So if I advise you to lock your car doors, I'm blaming you if your car is stolen? If I suggest it's a bad idea to walk alone through a bad part of town late at night, I'm blaming you?

Why is it, that on this one issue, some people interpret any suggestion of taking steps to avoid becoming a victim as "blame". What's funny (not really) is that what you're doing is proving my point. It's because of this mentality that any suggestion that women can and should take precautions is equated with placing blame and rejected (angrily) that we end out sending exactly the mixed signals I was talking about earlier.
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#58 Aug 31 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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No one is saying that women shouldn't be cautious. But whether or not you mean for it to come across this way, gbaji, you sound like you're making excuses for men. Like they're not able to think for themselves and control themselves, no matter what or how the woman is presenting herself.
#59 Aug 31 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
There's a difference between placing blame and suggesting caution. WTF? So if I advise you to lock your car doors, I'm blaming you if your car is stolen? If I suggest it's a bad idea to walk alone through a bad part of town late at night, I'm blaming you?

Why is it, that on this one issue, some people interpret any suggestion of taking steps to avoid becoming a victim as "blame". What's funny (not really) is that what you're doing is proving my point. It's because of this mentality that any suggestion that women can and should take precautions is equated with placing blame and rejected (angrily) that we end out sending exactly the mixed signals I was talking about earlier.


Basically what you've said, gbaji, is that women should be taught not to kiss, make out, have any alcohol, or be alone with a man if she doesn't intend to have *** with him. You've said that, instead of teaching that no means no, teach a woman when to say no.

It's fucking disgusting.
#60 Aug 31 2011 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.


The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves. So let's cut the crap and stop pretending that this is about confusing anyone. Given that this is the assumption involved, isn't it ridiculous to fight so hard to argue that a woman should always be perfectly safe if she does all those things and then goes back to his place?

It's not always safe, else we wouldn't be having this conversation. Thus, it's prudent to perhaps *not* take that step involving being alone with the guy unless you've already decided to have *** with him *or* you are absolutely 100% positive that he's not going to push the issue. It still amazes me that so many people have such a strong negative reaction to the mere suggestion that perhaps we should be teaching women to avoid that situation.
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#61 Aug 31 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves. So let's cut the crap and stop pretending that this is about confusing anyone. Given that this is the assumption involved, isn't it ridiculous to fight so hard to argue that a woman should always be perfectly safe if she does all those things and then goes back to his place?


No, that's not ridiculous. It is ridiculous to say that a woman owes a man ***. It is ridiculous to suggest that a man cannot control himself from raping a woman if he pays for her dinner, popcorn, and takes her back to his place.

Good lord, you're disgusting.
#62 Aug 31 2011 at 3:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.


The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves.

Then we need to be teaching these guys that a sock and lotion are still viable alternatives.
#63 Aug 31 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Basically what you've said, gbaji, is that women should be taught not to kiss, make out, have any alcohol, or be alone with a man if she doesn't intend to have *** with him. You've said that, instead of teaching that no means no, teach a woman when to say no.


Yup. Like say "no" when the guy asks you to come with him, alone, to his place after a night of drinking and dancing and making out unless you actually want to have *** with him. Like I said, in an ideal perfect world, he should be a gentleman and accept that you just want to hang out and play parchisee or read poetry or something. But we don't live in that world.

In a perfect world, I shouldn't have to lock my doors. I shouldn't need a password for my computer accounts. I should be able to just keep my money in a pile on my front step. It's just amazing to me that in every other area we accept that each individual should take steps to protect them from criminal activities, but not in this one. In the area of rape, we apparently teach that women should expect to be perfectly safe in any situation, no matter how drunk, no matter how alone, and no matter how briefly they've known the guy they are with.


And I get argument when I say that we're teaching women the wrong thing? Again, you are proving my point.
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#64 Aug 31 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
Then we need to be teaching these guys that a sock and lotion are still viable alternatives.


Let's just teach people not to steal cars or break into homes. How's that working out?
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#65 Aug 31 2011 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Basically what you've said, gbaji, is that women should be taught not to kiss, make out, have any alcohol, or be alone with a man if she doesn't intend to have *** with him. You've said that, instead of teaching that no means no, teach a woman when to say no.


Yup. Like say "no" when the guy asks you to come with him, alone, to his place after a night of drinking and dancing and making out unless you actually want to have *** with him. Like I said, in an ideal perfect world, he should be a gentleman and accept that you just want to hang out and play parchisee or read poetry or something. But we don't live in that world.


And in a perfect world, a woman doesn't change her mind at the last minute. Which happens.

Lord you're such a pig.
#66 Aug 31 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Let's just teach people not to steal cars or break into homes. How's that working out?
About as well as the War on Drugs, the War on Terrorism, and Abstinence Only Education.
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#67 Aug 31 2011 at 3:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
No, that's not ridiculous. It is ridiculous to say that a woman owes a man ***.


I never said that.

Quote:
It is ridiculous to suggest that a man cannot control himself from raping a woman if he pays for her dinner, popcorn, and takes her back to his place.


All men? Of course. Some men? Has to be true, else no one would ever be date raped, right? How clear can I make it: The very issue of date rape assumes that some men will not be gentlemen and will not take no for an answer. The case you are labeling as "ridiculous" is an assumed true case.

Quote:
Good lord, you're disgusting.


Sigh. Think with your head.
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#68 Aug 31 2011 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
I guess I'm strange for going to a movie with a woman, having dinner, and maybe even a drink at her house and not raping her.
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#69 Aug 31 2011 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And in a perfect world, a woman doesn't change her mind at the last minute. Which happens.


So you're saying that the world is less perfect because women do this? OMG! You're blaming a woman for being raped! You're so disgusting!!!!

You're completely turned around on this issue Belk. Stop knee-jerk responding and think about the issue.

Quote:
Lord you're such a pig.


That's really not very productive.
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#70 Aug 31 2011 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
Gbaji, do you understand that liking a person of the opposite *** doesn't mean you have to forcefully inject ***** into them?
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Edited, Mar 21st 2011 2:14pm by Darqflame Lock Thread: Because Lubriderm is silly... ~ de geso

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#71 Aug 31 2011 at 3:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
And in a perfect world, a woman doesn't change her mind at the last minute. Which happens.


So you're saying that the world is less perfect because women do this? OMG! You're blaming a woman for being raped! You're so disgusting!!!!

You're completely turned around on this issue Belk. Stop knee-jerk responding and think about the issue.


I'm turned around because I don't think that a woman should be blamed for going to a man's house and having a night cap then getting raped...?

Let me be clear: I have never said that a woman shouldn't be cautious. Of course they should. But you're suggesting that a woman practically cloister herself lest she be raped.
#72 Aug 31 2011 at 3:47 PM Rating: Good
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?
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#73 Aug 31 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm turned around because I don't think that a woman should be blamed for going to a man's house and having a night cap then getting raped...?


I never said she should be blamed. Not once.

Quote:
Let me be clear: I have never said that a woman shouldn't be cautious. Of course they should.


And yet you have vehemently attacked any suggestion that she take any sort of precautions at all. All I have said in this thread is that women should take precautions and not assume that the guy they're with will be a perfect gentleman once they're alone.

Quote:
But you're suggesting that a woman practically cloister herself lest she be raped.


Nope. There's a whole range between what I've said and that. You're doing that "all or nothing" thing again.

I'm not sure how you equate "avoid ending out alone, drunk, in the bedroom of a guy you only know casually", to "don't date or kiss, or have fun... ever". Bit of an excluded middle there.
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#74 Aug 31 2011 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?
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#75 Aug 31 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?

It's obvious, right?
#76 Aug 31 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?


In other words, no, you don't. You're just a misogynist, own it.
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#77 Aug 31 2011 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
This thread was intended to discuss gbaji's overwhelming hypocrisy, but this works, too.Smiley: laugh



EDIT: spelling is hard

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 4:13pm by Bijou
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#78 Aug 31 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?


In other words, no, you don't. You're just a misogynist, own it.


Jesus. It's kinda part of the definition

Quote:
date rape n. forcible sexual intercourse by a male acquaintance of a woman, during a voluntary social engagement in which the woman did not intend to submit to the sexual advances and resisted the acts by verbal refusals, denials or pleas to stop, and/or physical resistance. The fact that the parties knew each other or that the woman willingly accompanied the man are not legal defenses to a charge of rape, although one Pennsylvania decision ruled that there had to be some actual physical resistance.


"Voluntary social engagements" do usually involve multiple decisions to agree or disagree with any given choice along the way. While I suppose there's a rare case of someone being date raped while attending a lecture on campus or something, usually there's a "date" involved. Hence, the name. Dates usually involve choices like going out to eat, going dancing, drinking, going jointly to a private location, etc.

I guess I did have to spell it out. Really? Why does it always seem like some people ask the most moronic questions?
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#79 Aug 31 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Technogeek wrote:
Gbajitheclueless wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


Got some facts to back this up, or are you just projecting?


Um... We're talking about date rape, right? Do I really have to spell this out for you?


In other words, no, you don't. You're just a misogynist, own it.


Jesus. It's kinda part of the definition

Quote:
date rape n. forcible sexual intercourse by a male acquaintance of a woman, during a voluntary social engagement in which the woman did not intend to submit to the sexual advances and resisted the acts by verbal refusals, denials or pleas to stop, and/or physical resistance. The fact that the parties knew each other or that the woman willingly accompanied the man are not legal defenses to a charge of rape, although one Pennsylvania decision ruled that there had to be some actual physical resistance.


"Voluntary social engagements" do usually involve multiple decisions to agree or disagree with any given choice along the way. While I suppose there's a rare case of someone being date raped while attending a lecture on campus or something, usually there's a "date" involved. Hence, the name. Dates usually involve choices like going out to eat, going dancing, drinking, going jointly to a private location, etc.

I guess I did have to spell it out. Really? Why does it always seem like some people ask the most moronic questions?


The way you wrote this statement of yours implies that the woman agreed to *** originally, then changed her mind. Perhaps you're just bad at English? Is that what you were implying, or did you just write it poorly?
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#80 Aug 31 2011 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Belkira the Tulip wrote:
I'm turned around because I don't think that a woman should be blamed for going to a man's house and having a night cap then getting raped...?


I never said she should be blamed. Not once.


No. You implied it. Heavily.

gbaji wrote:
Quote:
Let me be clear: I have never said that a woman shouldn't be cautious. Of course they should.


And yet you have vehemently attacked any suggestion that she take any sort of precautions at all. All I have said in this thread is that women should take precautions and not assume that the guy they're with will be a perfect gentleman once they're alone.


I have not attacked any such suggestion. I have said that your attitude suggests that the woman be blamed for putting herself in the situation where she has been raped. Which is true.

gbaji wrote:
Quote:
But you're suggesting that a woman practically cloister herself lest she be raped.


Nope. There's a whole range between what I've said and that. You're doing that "all or nothing" thing again.

I'm not sure how you equate "avoid ending out alone, drunk, in the bedroom of a guy you only know casually", to "don't date or kiss, or have fun... ever". Bit of an excluded middle there.


No, I equate:

gbaji wrote:
The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves.


and:

gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.


to "don't date or kiss, or have fun... ever."
#81 Aug 31 2011 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
Gbaji, rape is not ever the woman's fault. Ever.


I agree 100%. What in my post made you think otherwise?


This you fucking moron:

gbaji wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no.
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#82 Aug 31 2011 at 5:28 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:

This. I'm not talking about what you wear or where you go. I'm talking about making smart choices when in social settings. Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to. Even ignoring the question of what was actually said or done when it was just the two of them, we can correctly say that there were numerous things she could have done to avoid getting into that situation in the first place.

...

In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?

Doesn't matter. No means no, no matter when it was said. I don't care how hard up the dude is, he can just let her out the door then go molest a washcloth in the bathroom.
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#83 Aug 31 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Technogeek wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Quote:
date rape n. forcible sexual intercourse by a male acquaintance of a woman, during a voluntary social engagement in which the woman did not intend to submit to the sexual advances and resisted the acts by verbal refusals, denials or pleas to stop, and/or physical resistance. The fact that the parties knew each other or that the woman willingly accompanied the man are not legal defenses to a charge of rape, although one Pennsylvania decision ruled that there had to be some actual physical resistance.


"Voluntary social engagements" do usually involve multiple decisions to agree or disagree with any given choice along the way. While I suppose there's a rare case of someone being date raped while attending a lecture on campus or something, usually there's a "date" involved. Hence, the name. Dates usually involve choices like going out to eat, going dancing, drinking, going jointly to a private location, etc.

I guess I did have to spell it out. Really? Why does it always seem like some people ask the most moronic questions?


The way you wrote this statement of yours implies that the woman agreed to *** originally, then changed her mind. Perhaps you're just bad at English? Is that what you were implying, or did you just write it poorly?


Huh? Where do you get this? I said that she agreed to go out to eat, then to go dancing, then to drink, then to go jointly to a private location. You're inserting your own assumptions in there.

The definition said is involves a "voluntary social engagement". What do you think that means? And no... It does not mean that she originally intended to have *** and then changed her mind. It means that she voluntarily engaged in some sort of social activity with the guy. WTF?

You're really reaching here.
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#84 Aug 31 2011 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
Doesn't matter. No means no, no matter when it was said. I don't care how hard up the dude is, he can just let her out the door then go molest a washcloth in the bathroom.
BUT SHE SAID YES ALL THE OTHER TIMES! IT'S HER FAULT FOR NOT WANTING TO BE HERMETICALLY SEALED IN A BUBBLE!

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 7:33pm by lolgaxe
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#85 Aug 31 2011 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
So, your original statement of:

Quote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


is very non specific in what the woman is saying "yes" to. You poorly worded it, leading people to misunderstand you. Your inability to admit you were wrong in anything whatsoever, is not a strength.
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#86 Aug 31 2011 at 5:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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Belkira wrote:
No, I equate:

gbaji wrote:
The assumption of date rape is that there are guys who aren't going to take "no" for an answer once they've had dinner, gone to the movie, ate popcorn, had drinks, invited her back to his place, and starts making his moves.


and:

gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.


to "don't date or kiss, or have fun... ever."


Which is excluding the middle.

Like say, do all those things minus getting undressed in a room with the guy.

Further muddying the water is the nonzero number of people who prefer a somewhat more adversarial bedroom approach.

He's not condoning the actions, rather saying people should be smarter about predicting the potential consequences.

Gbaji does have a legitimate view here, however unsuccessfully he is defending it.

Edited, Aug 31st 2011 7:47pm by Timelordwho
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#87 Aug 31 2011 at 5:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
Gbaji, rape is not ever the woman's fault. Ever.


I agree 100%. What in my post made you think otherwise?


This you fucking moron:

gbaji wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no.


Why do you interpret that as me saying the woman is at fault? What I'm saying is that we should be teaching women when to say no. And I don't mean "wait until he's forcing himself on you to say no". I mean, decide if you think it's a good idea to go off alone with this guy you just met before doing so. I mean, decide whether it's a good idea to get falling down drunk without some friends around to make sure some guy doesn't take advantage of you before doing so. And if you decide that those are bad ideas, say "no", when the guy asks you to do them.

This is no different than teaching people to lock their cars, or to not leave their valuables in plain sight, or teaching children not to talk to strangers. I still just find it interesting that in this one area, somehow it's wrong for us to do this. It's offensive to suggest that it's a good idea to teach women that some guys out there aren't going to respect them and aren't going to take a "no" answer to *** and to take precautions to reduce the likelihood that they find themselves in that situation?

I don't see it. What it does do is confirm my earlier statement that there seems to be this odd push to teach young women to be victims and come forward about it afterwards rather than not be victims in the first place. Don't you see that by being so negative towards even the suggestion that we should focus on avoiding dangerous situations that you're reinforcing this very mixed message I talked about earlier. Teaching guys that "no means no" is great and all. But in all likelihood, the guys who are in the classes and sensitivity seminars being taught that aren't the guys you need to worry about.


Dunno, I just think it's a foolish approach to the issue. There's a very real and very dangerous world out there, and I really do believe that some of the messages young women are being given result in them having a false sense of security. I'm not advocating locking themselves up in ivory towers or anything. But I think that providing young women with better tools to be able to maybe see danger coming before it's too late would be a better approach.

How is that wrong, much less "disgusting"?
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#88 Aug 31 2011 at 6:03 PM Rating: Good
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Because the way you said it makes it look like you're blaming the woman, is all. For someone who writes as much as you do you should learn to be more concise.
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#89 Aug 31 2011 at 6:04 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.


Technogeek wrote:
So, your original statement of:

Quote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


is very non specific in what the woman is saying "yes" to. You poorly worded it, leading people to misunderstand you. Your inability to admit you were wrong in anything whatsoever, is not a strength.


Nad's figured it out right off the bat. I thought in context that what I was saying was pretty clear.


But for those who thought otherwise: I was talking about all the choices leading up to ending out alone, perhaps drunk, perhaps semi-nude, perhaps already making out with a guy, and then saying "no" to actual intercourse. I was talking about saying "yes" to going to dinner, "yes" to going dancing, "yes" to having drinks, "yes" to making out with the guy, "yes" to going back to his place, and "yes" to making out on his bed. In a typical date rate scenario, the woman has said "yes" to numerous choices along the way. That's not to say she was wrong, or to blame for those choices, just that at any point she could have chosen to end the evening, but didn't.


I'm saying that teaching women to say "no" before they end out half naked in some guys bedroom, and out of public view will minimize their odds of being date raped. I don't think it's a bad idea to teach young women that the best time to end the evening with someone you don't trust 100% is before you are alone with them in an intimate setting. Again, this is not about blame. It's about educating women about precautions they can take while dating. As I've said repeatedly, this is no different than locking your doors, or hiding your valuables. In a perfect world, none of us would have to do those things.

But we don't live in a perfect world.
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#90 Aug 31 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Gbaji does have a legitimate view here, however unsuccessfully he is defending it.
Watching him sputter to the goal line is always fun.
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#91 Aug 31 2011 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
Because the way you said it makes it look like you're blaming the woman, is all. For someone who writes as much as you do you should learn to be more concise.


I think it's about 10% the way I've said it, and 90% the way some posters have chosen to interpret what I've said. Don't blame me because some posters go out of your way to look for something in my post to be offended by.

If someone was actually unsure what I meant, they could have asked instead of leaping to conclusions and calling me names. And yeah, I agree with the "more concise" issue, but honestly no matter how clearly I try to write things, it seems like someone will still find a way to twist it around to mean something I didn't intend. I don't think you know just how often I'll write something, realize someone might take it the wrong way, then re-write it. There's a point at which I just can't predict every possible mind-bending way someone might choose to view what I've written.
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#92 Aug 31 2011 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Because the way you said it makes it look like you're blaming the woman, is all. For someone who writes as much as you do you should learn to be more concise.


I think it's about 10% the way I've said it, and 90% the way some posters have chosen to interpret what I've said. Don't blame me because some posters go out of your way to look for something in my post to be offended by.

If someone was actually unsure what I meant, they could have asked instead of leaping to conclusions and calling me names. And yeah, I agree with the "more concise" issue, but honestly no matter how clearly I try to write things, it seems like someone will still find a way to twist it around to mean something I didn't intend. I don't think you know just how often I'll write something, realize someone might take it the wrong way, then re-write it. There's a point at which I just can't predict every possible mind-bending way someone might choose to view what I've written.

That's because you write too much. You say things that contradict your own argument in the next paragraph.

Less is more.
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#93 Aug 31 2011 at 6:16 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:


1. Like say "no" when the guy asks you to come with him, alone, to his place after a night of drinking and dancing and making out unless you actually want to have *** with him.

2.I should be able to just keep my money in a pile on my front step.




1. = Trust nobody. Nice world-view you want to teach.

2. = Don't ever dress in a way that makes you look ****.


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#94 Aug 31 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Good
ALSO: What Nil said.
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Allegory wrote:
Bijou your art is exceptionally creepy. It seems like their should be something menacing about it, yet no such tone is present.
#95 Aug 31 2011 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
Aaaaand, I hate to triple, but:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I've maintained for years that Gbaji is the best troll of them all. He has to be doing it on purpose. Any other explanation is scary.


Since I hear no argument about the troll theory from gbaji, I'm going with the "scary" option.
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#96 Aug 31 2011 at 6:23 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.



Nad's figured it out right off the bat. I thought in context that what I was saying was pretty clear.



TLW, gbaji has a valid view here...?

Smiley: oyvey

I say again, of course women should be cautious. But to suggest that if she's not, it's sort of her own fault is ridiculous. A woman can be stark naked laying in a guy's bed, say no, and it still be rape if he forces it on her.

Also, to say that "focusing" on getting rapists in jail is bad is also ridiculous.

The underlying point of thinking ahead and not walking down a dark alley is great. I get that. But suggesting that you teach women when to say no instead of a man that "no means no," and suggesting that if a woman agrees to going out with a man, agrees to dinner, agrees to popcorn at a movie, and even goes home and lets him feel her up then she's partially to blame for being raped, that's going entirely too far, and it is not ever, ever a valid view.

#97 Aug 31 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
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Friar Bijou wrote:
Aaaaand, I hate to triple, but:
You'll never get anywhere with that attitude, mister.
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#98 Aug 31 2011 at 6:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Admiral Lubriderm wrote:
Gbaji, rape is not ever the woman's fault. Ever.


I agree 100%. What in my post made you think otherwise?


This you fucking moron:

gbaji wrote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no.


Why do you interpret that as me saying the woman is at fault? What I'm saying is that we should be teaching women when to say no. And I don't mean "wait until he's forcing himself on you to say no". I mean, decide if you think it's a good idea to go off alone with this guy you just met before doing so. I mean, decide whether it's a good idea to get falling down drunk without some friends around to make sure some guy doesn't take advantage of you before doing so. And if you decide that those are bad ideas, say "no", when the guy asks you to do them.

This is no different than teaching people to lock their cars, or to not leave their valuables in plain sight, or teaching children not to talk to strangers. I still just find it interesting that in this one area, somehow it's wrong for us to do this. It's offensive to suggest that it's a good idea to teach women that some guys out there aren't going to respect them and aren't going to take a "no" answer to *** and to take precautions to reduce the likelihood that they find themselves in that situation?

I don't see it. What it does do is confirm my earlier statement that there seems to be this odd push to teach young women to be victims and come forward about it afterwards rather than not be victims in the first place. Don't you see that by being so negative towards even the suggestion that we should focus on avoiding dangerous situations that you're reinforcing this very mixed message I talked about earlier. Teaching guys that "no means no" is great and all. But in all likelihood, the guys who are in the classes and sensitivity seminars being taught that aren't the guys you need to worry about.


Dunno, I just think it's a foolish approach to the issue. There's a very real and very dangerous world out there, and I really do believe that some of the messages young women are being given result in them having a false sense of security. I'm not advocating locking themselves up in ivory towers or anything. But I think that providing young women with better tools to be able to maybe see danger coming before it's too late would be a better approach.

How is that wrong, much less "disgusting"?

So the couple goes out, they have dinner, movie, dancing, whatever. He asks her to go back to his house. He's not made one move all night, barely even touched her. He says he wants her to come back to his house (or he wants to go to her house) just to talk some more, get to know her better. It's been a great date and she has no reason to believe he's lying to her.

They get in the house, five minutes later he's pressuring her for ***. She really didn't see this coming. He's laid a trap, and now she's caught.

Is this the woman's fault? When should she have said no? How should she have seen this coming?
#99 Aug 31 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Decent
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How about this: "Men are assholes".

Except me, of course.
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#100 Sep 01 2011 at 7:02 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Most date rape scenarios follow a pattern where the woman says "yes" about a half dozen times to different things before she ends out alone in a bedroom half undressed with the guy she then says "no" to.

So if the woman says yes to dinner, yes to a movie, yes to splitting the popcorn, yes to drinks afterward, the guy is going to be confused when she says no to ***? I knew men could be simple, but this is just ridiculous.


Technogeek wrote:
So, your original statement of:

Quote:
In the overwhelming majority of date rape cases, the woman involved said "yes" many times before saying "no". Perhaps instead of just teaching people that "no means no", we should teach people when they should be saying no?


is very non specific in what the woman is saying "yes" to. You poorly worded it, leading people to misunderstand you. Your inability to admit you were wrong in anything whatsoever, is not a strength.


Nad's figured it out right off the bat. I thought in context that what I was saying was pretty clear.


But for those who thought otherwise: I was talking about all the choices leading up to ending out alone, perhaps drunk, perhaps semi-nude, perhaps already making out with a guy, and then saying "no" to actual intercourse. I was talking about saying "yes" to going to dinner, "yes" to going dancing, "yes" to having drinks, "yes" to making out with the guy, "yes" to going back to his place, and "yes" to making out on his bed. In a typical date rate scenario, the woman has said "yes" to numerous choices along the way. That's not to say she was wrong, or to blame for those choices, just that at any point she could have chosen to end the evening, but didn't.


I'm saying that teaching women to say "no" before they end out half naked in some guys bedroom, and out of public view will minimize their odds of being date raped. I don't think it's a bad idea to teach young women that the best time to end the evening with someone you don't trust 100% is before you are alone with them in an intimate setting. Again, this is not about blame. It's about educating women about precautions they can take while dating. As I've said repeatedly, this is no different than locking your doors, or hiding your valuables. In a perfect world, none of us would have to do those things.

But we don't live in a perfect world.


Right, teaching women to never interact with men would minimize rape. Smiley: rolleyes

But it's everyone else who's being impractical by suggesting that "no means no" is worth teaching, huh? Smiley: disappointed

Edited, Sep 1st 2011 9:04am by Eske
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#101 Sep 01 2011 at 7:39 AM Rating: Good
How did we let gbaji make rape a grey area?
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