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#177 May 15 2011 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Having free will defines us, correct?

If so, we have free will. Why do we have free will? How do we have it? You have stil not answered this, and claiming that it makes us us is not a way of circumventing the problem presented with it.
To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, we have free will because the boss insists on it.
The "New research" is nothing conclusive, though Daniel Dennette has a rather nice lecture about special determinism on YouTube. Also, I used the Hitchens quote earlier.
I did think someone else had already said it. :3

You're right of course, nothing conclusive. Certainly interesting, though.

Edited, May 16th 2011 12:25am by Nilatai
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#178 May 16 2011 at 4:49 AM Rating: Good
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I forgot how annoying I was back when I first became a Born Again Christian.

While reading a book by a christian we pick up at a religious bookstore, my ex and I read an on the Book of Romans, I realized how Fascist Paul was and finally decided that any God that people told me didn't approve of Life Drawing and the beauty of the human form, told women to obey the men place over them in their family and church, and just trying to control how one lives, wasn't for me.

First I rejected the idea that God could exist. Then due to my spiritual nature, I became Pagan.

Now I'm an an Agnostic Pagan, who sometimes prays to the Goddess and other times will rant at God, but not sure either exist and never expect an answer.

Also why Faeries may exist, I don't believe in Unicorns existed ever on this planet. Multiply Universes does not rule out the existence of anything we can think of though.
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This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
#179 May 16 2011 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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You know that Kelvy isn't making sense when Elne's posts read as slightly more coherent.

Edited, May 16th 2011 9:28am by Eske
#180 May 16 2011 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Having free will defines us, correct?

If so, we have free will. Why do we have free will? How do we have it? You have stil not answered this, and claiming that it makes us us is not a way of circumventing the problem presented with it.
To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, we have free will because the boss insists on it.
The "New research" is nothing conclusive, though Daniel Dennette has a rather nice lecture about special determinism on YouTube. Also, I used the Hitchens quote earlier.
I did think someone else had already said it. :3

You're right of course, nothing conclusive. Certainly interesting, though.

Edited, May 16th 2011 12:25am by Nilatai


What is this research, and why is it even necessary? People who think quantum uncertainty, if it's even actual randomness, precludes the viability of determinism make me want to stab my eyes out. "We can't predict how this particle will behave, therefor, people must have free will!"
#181 May 16 2011 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
What is this research, and why is it even necessary? People who think quantum uncertainty, if it's even actual randomness, precludes the viability of determinism make me want to stab my eyes out. "We can't predict how this particle will behave, therefore, people must have free will!"
I was actually suggesting we don't really have free will, in any proper sense of what it's supposed to mean.

I don't suppose you subscribe to New Scientist?
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#182 May 16 2011 at 10:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What is this research, and why is it even necessary? People who think quantum uncertainty, if it's even actual randomness, precludes the viability of determinism make me want to stab my eyes out. "We can't predict how this particle will behave, therefore, people must have free will!"
I was actually suggesting we don't really have free will, in any proper sense of what it's supposed to mean.

I don't suppose you subscribe to New Scientist?


Oh, I wasn't actually addressing that rant towards you. It was just an afterthought about the state of the scientific community.

But no, I don't subscribe to it.
#183 May 17 2011 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What is this research, and why is it even necessary? People who think quantum uncertainty, if it's even actual randomness, precludes the viability of determinism make me want to stab my eyes out. "We can't predict how this particle will behave, therefore, people must have free will!"
I was actually suggesting we don't really have free will, in any proper sense of what it's supposed to mean.

I don't suppose you subscribe to New Scientist?


Oh, I wasn't actually addressing that rant towards you. It was just an afterthought about the state of the scientific community.

But no, I don't subscribe to it.
M'kay. I won't bother linking the article then, you won't be able to read it.
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#184 May 17 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Nilatai wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What is this research, and why is it even necessary? People who think quantum uncertainty, if it's even actual randomness, precludes the viability of determinism make me want to stab my eyes out. "We can't predict how this particle will behave, therefore, people must have free will!"
I was actually suggesting we don't really have free will, in any proper sense of what it's supposed to mean.

I don't suppose you subscribe to New Scientist?


Oh, I wasn't actually addressing that rant towards you. It was just an afterthought about the state of the scientific community.

But no, I don't subscribe to it.
M'kay. I won't bother linking the article then, you won't be able to read it.


Can you give me a brief summary of the findings?
#185 May 17 2011 at 8:14 AM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kachi wrote:
What is this research, and why is it even necessary? People who think quantum uncertainty, if it's even actual randomness, precludes the viability of determinism make me want to stab my eyes out. "We can't predict how this particle will behave, therefore, people must have free will!"
I was actually suggesting we don't really have free will, in any proper sense of what it's supposed to mean.

I don't suppose you subscribe to New Scientist?


Oh, I wasn't actually addressing that rant towards you. It was just an afterthought about the state of the scientific community.

But no, I don't subscribe to it.
M'kay. I won't bother linking the article then, you won't be able to read it.


Can you give me a brief summary of the findings?
Quote:
This is the big one. The notion that we have free will - the ability to exercise conscious control over our actions and decisions - is deeply embedded in human experience. But the more we learn about the physical universe and the human brain, the less plausible it becomes (New Scientist, 16 April, p 32).

One argument goes as follows: the universe, including the bits of it that make up your brain, is entirely deterministic. The state it is in right now determines the state it will be a millisecond, a month or a million years from now. Therefore free will cannot exist.

Neuroscience has also chipped in. Around 30 years ago psychologist Benjamin Libet discovered that if you ask people to make voluntary movements, their brains initiate the movement before they become consciously aware of any intention to move. Other experiments have since been performed along similar lines, leading many neuroscientists to conclude that free will is an illusion.

But it feels so real. We all have a sense of agency - the conviction that even though we did one thing, we could have done another, and that at any given moment we have free choice of any number of actions. Yet it seems that this is an elaborate illusion created by your brain. The conclusion is inescapable. We really are deluded.


That's the article I was referring to. Well, a summary of it. The article was basically discussing how our brains and thought processes are flawed. Basically the old "how do we know we can trust what we're thinking" spiel.
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#186 May 17 2011 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
#187 May 17 2011 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
Do you mean what that says? Or do you just mean "it's not a peer reviewed journal"?
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

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#188 May 17 2011 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
Do you mean what that says? Or do you just mean "it's not a peer reviewed journal"?
It does tend to draw far more conclusions from data than are actually there at times. Besides, determinism doesn't exactly rule out free will. Check out Dennett's lecture here.
#189 May 17 2011 at 8:46 AM Rating: Good
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LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
Do you mean what that says? Or do you just mean "it's not a peer reviewed journal"?
It does tend to draw far more conclusions from data than are actually there at times. Besides, determinism doesn't exactly rule out free will. Check out Dennett's lecture here.
Thanks, I've wanted to watch that since you brought it up the other day.
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

LordFaramir wrote:
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#190 May 17 2011 at 9:04 AM Rating: Good
Nilatai wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
Do you mean what that says? Or do you just mean "it's not a peer reviewed journal"?


The former.
#191 May 17 2011 at 9:55 AM Rating: Good
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Kavekk wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
Do you mean what that says? Or do you just mean "it's not a peer reviewed journal"?


The former.
I see. What makes you say so, just curious.
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Solrain wrote:
WARs can use semi-colons however we want. I once killed a guy with a semi-colon.

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#192 May 17 2011 at 11:56 AM Rating: Decent
The Argument from Free Will

1. Having free will means having the freedom to choose our actions, rather than their being determined by some prior cause.

2. If we don't have free will, then we are not agents, for then we are not really acting, but rather we're being acted upon. (That's why we don't punish people for involuntary actions—such as a teller who hands money to a bank robber at gunpoint, or a driver who injures a pedestrian after a defective tire blows out.)

3. To be a moral agent means to be held morally responsible for what one does.

4. If we can't be held morally responsible for anything we do then the very idea of morality is meaningless.

5. Morality is not meaningless.

6. We have free will (from 2- 5).

7. We, as moral agents, are not subject to the laws of nature, in particular, the neural events in a genetically and environmentally determined brain (from 1 and 6).

8. Only a being who is apart from the laws of nature and partakes of the moral sphere could explain our being moral agents (from 7).

9. Only God is a being who is apart from the laws of nature and partakes of the moral sphere.

10. Only God can explain our moral agency (from 8 & 9).

11. God exists.

FLAW 1: This argument, in order to lead to God, must ignore the paradoxical Fork of Free Will. Either my actions are predictable (from my genes, my upbringing, my brain state, my current situation, and so on), or they are not. If they are predictable, then there is no reason to deny that they are caused, and we would not have free will. So they must be unpredictable, in other words, random. But if our behavior is random, then in what sense can it be attributable to us at all? If it really is a random event when I give the infirm man my seat in the subway, then in what sense is it me to whom this good deed should be attributed? If the action isn't caused by my psychological states, which are themselves caused by other states, then in one way is it really my action? And what good would it do to insist on moral responsibility, if our choices are random, and cannot be predicted from prior events (such as growing up in a society that holds people responsible)? This leads us back to the conclusion that we, as moral agents must be parts of the natural world-- the very negation of 7.

FLAW 2: Premise 10 is an example of the Fallacy of Using One Mystery to Pseudo-Explain Another. It expresses, rather than dispels, the confusion we feel when faced with the Fork of Free Will. The paradox has not been clarified in the least by introducing God into the analysis.


Let's talk about boobs instead.

#193 May 17 2011 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
RAWDEAL wrote:
Let's talk about boobs instead.


You're a boob.
#194 May 17 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
LeWoVoc wrote:
Having free will defines us, correct?

If so, we have free will. Why do we have free will? How do we have it? You have stil not answered this, and claiming that it makes us us is not a way of circumventing the problem presented with it.
To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, we have free will because the boss insists on it.
The "New research" is nothing conclusive, though Daniel Dennette has a rather nice lecture about special determinism on YouTube. Also, I used the Hitchens quote earlier.
I did think someone else had already said it. :3

You're right of course, nothing conclusive. Certainly interesting, though.



Sorry so interrupt your exercise in futility of trying to prove the unprovable.. I just want to add that even if the only free will that we were given was to choose between Coke or Pepsi and every other aspect of our existence was controlled.. It would still be Free will to choose Coke or Pepsi. It would have no bearing on God's will whatsoever.
A fish in a fishbowl can go where EVER she wants! But it can only be in the fish bowl.

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#195 May 17 2011 at 5:59 PM Rating: Good
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#196 May 17 2011 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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I'm not sorry to interrupt.
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#197 May 17 2011 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
Sorry so interrupt your exercise in futility of trying to prove the unprovable.
I thought that was what you were doing with the first post?
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#198 May 17 2011 at 6:20 PM Rating: Good
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ElneClare wrote:
Now I'm an an Agnostic Pagan, who sometimes prays to the Goddess and other times will rant at God, but not sure either exist and never expect an answer.



From one Baltimoran to another; I tried to be as annoying as possible :P
I was taught about God when I was little and my Grandfather was a born-again and my olest memories were my mom and aunts making the 'crazy' gesture when he would start ranting about The Lord.. But I never thought about it must growing up except in the back of my head..

I did become Pagan first though.. Druid from 14 onward and I have "seen sh*t that would turn you WHITE!" :P Even in all of that , though, I believed in One God but just figured He was off "doing his thing" and we had free reign.. but I did not understand was Jesus was.. I figured the point of existence was to try to become as Jesus and be able to walk on water and raise the dead and fly..lol I just figured it may take a few lifetimes and eventually we would get there..
Now I simply no longer believe that we will get there like that in our existences without God's help.










Edited, May 17th 2011 8:26pm by Kelvyquayo
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#199 May 17 2011 at 6:21 PM Rating: Good
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Nilatai wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
Sorry so interrupt your exercise in futility of trying to prove the unprovable.
I thought that was what you were doing with the first post?


No, there I was actually trolling.
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#200 May 17 2011 at 6:44 PM Rating: Decent
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@Nilatai; Didn't you say there were some new findings (or was that someone else)? I'm intimately familiar with determinism, but I was wondering what "new" findings there could be.

Nilatai wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
Nilatai wrote:
Kavekk wrote:
The New Scientist isn't what I'd call a reputable scientific publication.
Do you mean what that says? Or do you just mean "it's not a peer reviewed journal"?


The former.
I see. What makes you say so, just curious.


Not being familiar with it myself, I know there was at least an article on the book What Darwin Got Wrong, which as near as I can tell is a complete piece of crap. It seems like the kind of publication that is made primarily to be interesting (or let's say "thought-provoking") rather than strictly reliable as a source of information.

#201 May 17 2011 at 6:51 PM Rating: Good
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RAWDEAL wrote:
So they must be unpredictable, in other words, random. But if our behavior is random, then in what sense can it be attributable to us at all?


While I'm not going to debate whether or not your 11 stepped failed college thesis paper contained elements of flaws.. I will say that your tangent in your description of the flaws I think perhaps would inform you that you should take a good hard look at the logic that you are using to deny your creator.
You are talking about "random" as if it is the fifth element. Random only exist relatively. You actually stated before that that nothing can be random because you say: "(from my genes, my upbringing, my brain state, my current situation, and so on" well why stop there? Then the determining causes for your actions would go back even farther to the beginning of Time. If this particular piece of space dust hadn't have collided with that that certain energy field then you'd have different colored eyes and you would have worn the blue shirt in stead of the red shirt...
Random is relative. The root of randomness is ignorance. Random is an attribute that we ascribe to something because we do not understand what is causing it. What is really random? You see a leaf blowing around in the wind.. it seems random? or is there a complex pattern of wind and motion that we don't calculate? Is this the same as the integer spins of particles for go one way or another? Are they predictable?
No they aren't.

RAWDEAL wrote:
The paradox has not been clarified in the least by introducing God into the analysis.


I'll see that and raise you a:
The paradox has not been clarified in the least by removing God for the analysis.
In fact it make it make no sense.

Edited, May 17th 2011 8:53pm by Kelvyquayo
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