Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Obama releases long form birth cert.Follow

#52 Apr 27 2011 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
******
49,831 posts
gbaji wrote:
To me, it's like the jerk who is asked for ID at a bar, and presents a library card, then a temporary license paper, then says that he's got a friend who can vouch for him, and then after an hour of this he finally pulls out his wallet and shows his ID and wonders why the bartender made such a big deal out of it.
Except the bar accepts those forms of ID, so the bartender is just being a ****.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#53 Apr 27 2011 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Prodigal Son
******
20,518 posts
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Gbaji and the rest of the Birthers are still retards.

Link

Edit: LOLFreepers. "But... but... if you ONLY released this then EVERYONE would just stop asking!!" :D


What I have said consistently on this subject is that with said release, the only people who will care are the fringe crazies, who can safely be ignored (well, except by liberals who go seeking them out in order to make it seem like they speak for the rest of us). My issue, and the issue most people had with this, was the lack of any sort of legal process for making the determination. That process still hasn't been ironed out, but at least he finally did the right thing.

I found it amusing though that Obama pretended like he didn't understand why people ever made such a big deal out of this in the first place. To me, it's like the jerk who is asked for ID at a bar, and presents a library card, then a temporary license paper, then says that he's got a friend who can vouch for him, and then after an hour of this he finally pulls out his wallet and shows his ID and wonders why the bartender made such a big deal out of it. Um... Because you're being a jerk and no one else thought it was funny? Sigh...

It was all handled by the processes in place for vetting presidential candidates back in '08. Your analogy would make more sense if he was ID'd at the front door to a club, got a stamp on his hand, then asked for ID again by the bartender even though he was already checked. Unnecessary.
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#54 Apr 27 2011 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
Worst. Title. Ever!
*****
16,912 posts
Debalic wrote:
It was all handled by the processes in place for vetting presidential candidates back in '08. Your analogy would make more sense if he was ID'd at the front door to a club, got a stamp on his hand, then asked for ID again by the bartender even though he was already checked. Unnecessary.


Not even the Bartender. Just random people at the bar who saw him with a drink and demanded to see his ID to make sure he really should have that drink.
____________________________
Can't sleep, clown will eat me.
#55 Apr 27 2011 at 3:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
12,049 posts
gbaji wrote:
What I have said consistently on this subject is that with said release, the only people who will care are the fringe crazies, who can safely be ignored (well, except by liberals who go seeking them out in order to make it seem like they speak for the rest of us). My issue, and the issue most people had with this, was the lack of any sort of legal process for making the determination. That process still hasn't been ironed out, but at least he finally did the right thing.

I found it amusing though that Obama pretended like he didn't understand why people ever made such a big deal out of this in the first place.

Smiley: dubious
If only fringe crazies would draw it this far, wouldn't it make sense that he "pretended" that he didn't understand?

Sorry if I misread that somehow. Part of me wants to point out the stats that 1/4 Americans aren't mostly sure he was born in the good ol' US of A (and, what was it, 40% of Republicans and the majority of the Tea Party?). But that would disrupt my mocking of you for attributing this behavior to "fringe crazies."

Fact is, what Obama showed was what Hawaii gives. As per the correspondence (also shown in all these topics), Obama needed to have his position as President used to get the full version - because the short version is what Hawaii gives. If that + testimony from officials + no evidence to the contrary doesn't convince you, you are part of the fringe crazies.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 5:55pm by LockeColeMA
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#56 Apr 27 2011 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
12,049 posts
Going to go slightly off-topic, because we're a deeply off-topic forum. Two things annoy me about the birther dealio.

1. It started with a Hillary Clinton aide. Linda Starr, a fervent Hillary Clinton supporter, was the one who started the entire thing according to John Avlon. She was hoping it would create a nice cloud of smog and get Obama booed out so Hillary could win the nomination. Instead, it laid relatively low until right-winger conspiracy theorists snatched it, and then it became huge. Huger than even...

2. Truthers. As gbaji (and others, but him more eloquently than most) will point out, "the other side is just as bad!" And that's true in some ways. Birthers really feel like the "truthers" after 9/11, saying the Bush administration was in on the whole thing. Some people cannot see reality. I would love to know the statistics of how many Americans "think 9/11 was known about, or planned by, the Bush administration." I highly doubt it's as large as the birther movement, but damned if they had just as much evidence!

Ok, derail off. I've had a terrible day that started with me being in the ER with my girl for 4 hours, and I'm cranky. gbaji is at least a step above a lot of other conservatives I've heard from, who say this proves nothing, but it's just one mouthful of bull too much for me to not get antsy Smiley: bah
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#57 Apr 27 2011 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
192 posts
gbaji wrote:


I found it amusing though that Obama pretended like he didn't understand why people ever made such a big deal out of this in the first place. To me, it's like the jerk who is asked for ID at a bar, and presents a library card, then a temporary license paper, then says that he's got a friend who can vouch for him, and then after an hour of this he finally pulls out his wallet and shows his ID and wonders why the bartender made such a big deal out of it. Um... Because you're being a jerk and no one else thought it was funny? Sigh...

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 2:37pm by gbaji


And there are those of us who live in the US, but come from more civilised places that wonder why we still get carded in bars at the age of 35. The neccesity to constantly validate one's identity with a piece of paper is very trying. Especially, I'd imagine, when one is trying to run 'the world's only superpower'.
#58 Apr 27 2011 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
***
2,069 posts
I saw that Trump is now claiming that Obama was a bad student and wants to know how he got into an ivy league school. I think is thinking about W.
Click



Fun click




Edited, Apr 27th 2011 6:19pm by Ailitardif
____________________________
http://www.marriageissogay.com/

Song of the day:
May 26, 2011 -- Transplants
#59 Apr 27 2011 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
What I have said consistently on this subject is that with said release, the only people who will care are the fringe crazies

And you who went out of your way time and time and time again to defend them and say "Oh, I don't agree but they really have a point!"

:D

You previously wrote:
This puts a hard clock on that though, doesn't it? Either he has to do something absurd (like use a proxy), or he has to provide the documents. The birthers get what they want and the GOP gets the issue put behind them and the Dems lose the free jokes on cable TV.

Yeah, the Birthers TOTALLY got what they wanted. So much so that now they howl and scream "NO NO NO!!! THIS IS FAKE AND WRONG AND HE'S LYING AND HIS SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IS WRONG AND HIS SCHOOL RECORDS WHAT ABOUT HIS SCHOOL RECORDS?!!!!?????!?!?!?!"

As I said at the time, it's adorable that you thought this would appease people who are mentally ill. But you'll keep defending them (even though you're not really a Birther, right?), I know.

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 5:29pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#60 Apr 27 2011 at 4:22 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
LockeColeMA wrote:
2. Truthers. As gbaji (and others, but him more eloquently than most) will point out, "the other side is just as bad!" And that's true in some ways.

The primary difference being that, at least as far as this forum goes, Truthers have been mocked and derided on a fully bipartisan basis each time they pop up. I can't think of anyone here who ever tried to defend them, it was always fly-in posters who tried spreading that crap. When it comes to Birthers, they always have their steadfast core of defenders here.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#61 Apr 27 2011 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
34,982 posts
Debalic wrote:
It was all handled by the processes in place for vetting presidential candidates back in '08.


There is no process in place though. That's the point. It simply doesn't exist. There is no process for verifying someone's status as a natural born citizen prior to being put on the ballot in the state (if there was, then why the uproar about the recently proposed AZ bill?). There is no process in place to verify that the person who won the election meets that criteria. There is no process in place to verify that the person the Electoral College votes on meets the criteria. There is no process to verify that person prior to him taking the oath of office. And there is apparently no legal process for doing so even once the person has taken office either.

You're imagining things if you think this. It's just plain not true. And that's the real issue here.


Quote:
Your analogy would make more sense if he was ID'd at the front door to a club, got a stamp on his hand, then asked for ID again by the bartender even though he was already checked. Unnecessary.


Except that no one actually checked IDs at the door. Someone just said "he's ok", and waved him through. You do realize that the only remotely "official" process involved was when the Democratic party filed to have his name included on ballots as their nominated representative, right? That's it. Do you think that the Democrats, having just nominated him would at that point stop and check his ID? Or do you think they'd just wave him through and hope nothing comes of it? More to the point, that's not independent verification. There's a guy in AZ who runs for president every year. He's a member of some fringe party (can't remember which one). He's also not only not a natural born citizen, but he's not even a US citizen at all. Yet his name appears on the ballot because he's the chosen nominee of a political party who paid the dues to be able to put a name on that ballot in that state.


That's obviously not a process for actual verification. There is nothing preventing his party from paying to put his name on the ballot in every state. And if he won? What then? My concern has never been about Obama. In fact, I've stated numerous times that I hope to god that there is nothing strange with his birth certificate because that would be more problematic than the alternative (and bob-forbid we'd end out with President Biden if even the worst claims ended out being true and no one actually wants that). You do understand that while there are some loonies for whom this is just about some brainless need to attack Obama, "the right" doesn't gain anything politically even if every single claim they're making is correct. It has never been about that. It's been about how this whole thing has shown how utterly unprepared we are for managing even a question about someone's qualification as a natural born citizen.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#62 Apr 27 2011 at 6:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,244 posts
Jophiel wrote:
LockeColeMA wrote:
It seems the argument has shifted from "Not born in the US!" to "Father wasn't a US citizen, doesn't count as natural born!"

Pathological need, man. Pathological need.


It's like it's a sudden revelation that his father was Kenyan. Did we not already know that?

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#63 Apr 27 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Good
******
49,831 posts
gbaji wrote:
Except that no one actually checked IDs at the door.
No, he showed his military identification card instead of his driver's license to get into the bar.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#64 Apr 27 2011 at 6:27 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
34,982 posts
LockeColeMA wrote:
Fact is, what Obama showed was what Hawaii gives. As per the correspondence (also shown in all these topics), Obama needed to have his position as President used to get the full version - because the short version is what Hawaii gives.


That's simply not true either. Hawaii has provided the full long form on request all along (well, up until just a couple months ago, oddly enough), and in fact it specifically requested that people use the long form for some of its own uses. Anyone could request their own documentation at any time. There was no reason to present the certification and not the full long form ever.


Quote:
If that + testimony from officials + no evidence to the contrary doesn't convince you, you are part of the fringe crazies.


How many times have I said that I believe he does have a birth certificate and it does say exactly what he claims? Every single time this subject has come up. WTF?


My issue has always been that I thought it odd to work so hard to avoid providing said long form when it was trivially available to him all along. Why do that except to do it purely to make people wonder why you're doing that? The obvious second point is why we don't have any process in place to make that determination and are instead relying on whatever the candidate and his party (and random public opinion) deems to be enough. We don't do that in any other area of our legal system, do we? More bizarre was the dismissals on lack of standing in the courts, when it was obvious that the judges were actually pre-judging on merit, but didn't want to go through the trouble of performing a relatively common procedure like subpoenaing a set of documents and reading them. Dunno, that one seemed strange to.

Why do that? Why work 10 times harder to not provide a piece of paper? It's great that he's finally come forward with it. But we shouldn't have to rely on the individual finally deciding to do so. Some set of standards about what is needed to qualify for that criteria ought to be established so that we avoid this mess the next time. Don't you agree?
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#65 Apr 27 2011 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
The Duck Whisperer
*****
15,512 posts
gbaji wrote:

My issue has always been that I thought it odd to work so hard to avoid providing said long form when it was trivially available to him all along. Why do that except to do it purely to make people wonder why you're doing that?
Presidents have a right to do things for the lulz.
____________________________
Iamadam the Prophet wrote:

You know that feeling you get when you have a little bit of hope, only to have it ripped away? Sweetums feeds on that.
#66 Apr 27 2011 at 6:39 PM Rating: Good
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,569 posts
Not that I ever really doubted Obama's citizenship, but why pick now to release it? Was Donald Trump really pestering him that badly?
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#67 Apr 27 2011 at 6:41 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
34,982 posts
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
What I have said consistently on this subject is that with said release, the only people who will care are the fringe crazies

And you who went out of your way time and time and time again to defend them and say "Oh, I don't agree but they really have a point!"


No. I said I don't agree with them, but we really should have a process for making the determination instead of just sweeping it under the rug because we don't agree with them. There's a world of difference between those.


Quote:
You previously wrote:
This puts a hard clock on that though, doesn't it? Either he has to do something absurd (like use a proxy), or he has to provide the documents. The birthers get what they want and the GOP gets the issue put behind them and the Dems lose the free jokes on cable TV.

Yeah, the Birthers TOTALLY got what they wanted. So much so that now they howl and scream "NO NO NO!!! THIS IS FAKE AND WRONG AND HE'S LYING AND HIS SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBER IS WRONG AND HIS SCHOOL RECORDS WHAT ABOUT HIS SCHOOL RECORDS?!!!!?????!?!?!?!"



Who cares if there's an incredibly tiny number of people out there who'll continue to cling to some reason to attack Obama? We can safely ignore them, and the GOP can move on (which is the more relevant issue here). You act like there aren't just as many nutjobs on the left Joph. Yet you don't see me quoting crazy left-wingers on Daily KOS and arguing that they are typical examples of what people on the left think.

Quote:
As I said at the time, it's adorable that you thought this would appease people who are mentally ill.


Not at all. I meant that it would appease the vast majority of people (like myself) who get labeled as "birthers" by people like you because we didn't automatically dismiss the issue out of hand and attack anyone who wanted to see the long form as crazies. You have used (in this thread in fact) the label of birther on people who are now completely satisfied that the matter is behind us with regard to Obama's birth (although I'd still like to see an actual official process put in place instead of relying on the individual to do the right thing).

You're conveniently after the fact choosing to apply that label only to those who are still convinced that Obama wasn't born in Hawaii (or that his qualifications are invalid for some other bizarre reason). You've never used it that way in the past though, have you?
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#68 Apr 27 2011 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
******
49,831 posts
To make anyone that runs for President look like a 'tard for bringing it up.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#69 Apr 27 2011 at 6:43 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
34,982 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Except that no one actually checked IDs at the door.
No, he showed his military identification card instead of his driver's license to get into the bar.


No. The best analogy is that a friend vouched for him to the doorman, who they paid to get them in. I'll restated my point that the only actual "official" method for meeting the qualification is to have the party sign a form attesting that their candidate meets the requirements for the office when they're filing to be included on the ballot in a state. That's it. That's the only method we use right now.


If we get nothing out of this, it's that said method is not sufficient.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#70 Apr 27 2011 at 6:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,244 posts
"Well, for MOST people a driver's license would be fine, but since you're drinking while black we're going to need two references and your last W-4 form."

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#71 Apr 27 2011 at 6:48 PM Rating: Good
******
49,831 posts
gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Except that no one actually checked IDs at the door.
No, he showed his military identification card instead of his driver's license to get into the bar.
No. The best analogy is that a friend vouched for him to the doorman,
No, I was right. Unless you're saying both the Republicans and Democrats were inept and didn't do security checks, at which point I would laugh my balls off.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#72 Apr 27 2011 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
****
7,861 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Except that no one actually checked IDs at the door.
No, he showed his military identification card instead of his driver's license to get into the bar.
No. The best analogy is that a friend vouched for him to the doorman,
No, I was right. Unless you're saying both the Republicans and Democrats were inept and didn't do security checks, at which point I would laugh my balls off.

It's been known to happen...
____________________________
People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome. ~River Tam

Sedao
#73 Apr 27 2011 at 6:54 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
34,982 posts
Demea wrote:
Not that I ever really doubted Obama's citizenship, but why pick now to release it? Was Donald Trump really pestering him that badly?


At the risk of speculating too hard, I suspect it had to do with questions about whether the same "He already proved this, so stop asking" bit might not work so well a second time around. His popularity is lower than it was in 2008, and the momentum politically has definitely shifted. While I doubt the GOP candidates would have made too much of an issue with it, they wouldn't have to. Just show up at any event with a copy of their full birth certificate in their pockets and flash it to the crowd anytime someone asks. They don't have to argue that Obama isn't a citizen, but just show how easy it is to do and let the public wonder why Obama hasn't yet.


That's probably what was going on. They got the political mileage they were going to get out of this, and I suspect that they saw polling numbers that told them that public opinion was shifting from "he doesn't have to show this so why are you bothering him" to "geez already, just show them the **** thing and move on". I mean, I've got two sealed copies of my full form sitting in my desk drawer 2 feet away from where I'm writing this. I suspect that most people have one handy or could get one quickly if they needed to. I suspect that they weren't so much obsessing on the "do you think Obama is a US citizen" polling questions, but the "do you think Obama should show his full birth certificate" numbers and seeing that the issue wasn't helping them as much as the folks on this forum might think.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#74 Apr 27 2011 at 6:55 PM Rating: Decent
Prodigal Son
******
20,518 posts
Huh - I gotta concede that one to gbaji. Apparently the vetting process only applies to VP candidates, which seems a bit odd. I guess it should be done, but if there is no process then there is no problem. Just a bunch of racist assholes horrified that a black man can be President. Oh well.
____________________________
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#75 Apr 27 2011 at 6:57 PM Rating: Default
Encyclopedia
******
34,982 posts
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Except that no one actually checked IDs at the door.
No, he showed his military identification card instead of his driver's license to get into the bar.
No. The best analogy is that a friend vouched for him to the doorman,
No, I was right. Unless you're saying both the Republicans and Democrats were inept and didn't do security checks, at which point I would laugh my balls off.


Only the party who's putting their nominee on the ballot vouches for them. What vested interest would they have in checking his ID *after* they've nominated him? Think about it. Also recall that the earliest questions about his birth weren't from the GOP but were from the Clinton campaign. They were the first "birthers", a fact which many people tend to forget. Once he won the nomination they'd look pretty darn stupid if it turned out he wasn't qualified, so it doesn't matter what they thought or believed, they'd have every vested interest in making sure no one investigated the issue at all. It's very much like the doorman who let a friend of a friend in, trusting that he was of age, but not having actually checked to make sure, who will now have to swear up and down to the bartender that he knows "for sure" that the guy he let is in old enough to drink and that there's no need to check his ID.


Do you think the DNC actually checked his full form birth certificate either?

Edited, Apr 27th 2011 5:59pm by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#76 Apr 27 2011 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
******
49,831 posts
gbaji wrote:
Do you think the DNC actually checked his full form birth certificate either?
I think both parties have been getting the required identification for the past two hundred plus years, and its a very disturbing coincidence that when its not a white guy running that its suddenly become such a huge issue.
____________________________
George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 1 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (1)