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As per MSN, "Duke case reopens wounds for black women&qFollow

#102 Apr 18 2006 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Hey, Halle Berry deserved that oscar. Like anyone would actually believe she'd bang Billy Bob Thorton.


So Angelina Jolie deserves ... a Nobel Peace Prize?

Back on topic, it's just amazing how many hits the race cause has taken of late:

1.) The black student who wrote threatening letters to minorities

2.) The black congresswoman who claimed racial profiling at the Capitol

3.) This stripper

All high profile losers that have done immeasurable harm to any legitimate racial injustices. The political capital and credibility squandered is enormous.

Let us not forget that it was the great legal scholar and former Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor who ruled race based admissions should be legal for now but might at some point have to be ruled illegal. At least it's guaranteed constitutionally fresh a little bit longer than your milk.
#103 Apr 18 2006 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
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So...... Totem is right then.


Under the assumption that because she was there to strip and get nekkit she caused herelf to get raped and the guys sshould not be liable, then no.

But, I have said before under no circumstances should a girl be raped, period. But, if a girl puts herself in that particular situation, then she is at fault to.

If I don't want guys to oogle my goodies or if Im not ready to deal with the possible reprocustions, I wouldn't strip at a party where there is going to be guys drinking, its a recipe for trouble.

Thats why if these accusations are true, then both parties are in the wrong, and the guys should be punished.

If these accusations are not true, then it will seem like she played the race card as a scape goat.

I've known some girls that have gotten raped before, and when they told me, they said "this guy raped me", not this white guy or black guy, it didn't matter just the mere fact of the rape is bad and traumatic(sp?) race had nothing to do with it, thats why I feel her story is very fishy.

Edited, Tue Apr 18 17:51:02 2006 by kalaria
#104 Apr 18 2006 at 4:43 PM Rating: Decent
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2.) The black congresswoman who claimed racial profiling at the Capitol


lmao, Im sorry but that **** pissed me off. She knows people on capital hill dont like her, and her *** wasn't wearing her ID badge. What she thought they were gonna let her pimp walk right in? She does a lot of good, but when your in that type of situation you gotta be on point, not this **** she tried to pull.
#105 Apr 18 2006 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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If I don't want guys to oogle my goodies or if Im not ready to deal with the possible reprocustions, I wouldn't strip at a party where there is going to be guys drinking, its a recipe for trouble.


So, Totem was right.
#106 Apr 18 2006 at 5:05 PM Rating: Decent
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So, Totem was right.


No, from what I see Totem thinks that she got what she deserved, cause of her proffesion and the "why" she was there, which is up for debate.(correct me if I'm wrong Totem)

So therefore I feel like that even though she was there and was a stripper and was getting nekkit, she didnt deserve to get raped, but she is also at fault cause she made the choice to go, and the guys are at fault cause they chose to rape her.(If it really happened) That differs from the above statement, if thats how Totem feels.

Edited, Tue Apr 18 18:06:29 2006 by kalaria
#107 Apr 18 2006 at 5:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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kalaria wrote:
(correct me if I'm Totem)


I can say you're probably not Totem
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#108 Apr 18 2006 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I can say you're probably not Totem


lol, edited, I forgot to put the *wrong* in there. :P
#109 Apr 18 2006 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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No, from what I see Totem thinks that she got what she deserved


Actually he said she was "Asking" for it.

Deserving something and acting so irresponsibly that there is no other logical outcome are two different things.
#110 Apr 18 2006 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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If Totem thinks they are wrong for the rape if they did do it regardless of why she was there and even though she made a bad decision, then yes.
#111 Apr 18 2006 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Alright then. As long as we're on the same page.
#112 Apr 18 2006 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
It is always amazing to me how society (as a whole) views rape. Here is a HOOKER who accused some white boys of rape.

My points:
1. Those of you who are arguing that she is not a hooker. She as admitted to having sex for money in the past and is currently employed as a freelance "exotic" dancer. Even if she didn't offer her "flavor of the week" at this piticular party, she is still a HOOKER.

2. Does any woman deserve to be raped. Heck no. Can a woman put herself into a position to be raped. Yes. Should she get some of the blame? Yes (although most should go to the raper). If a former junky starts hanging out in the crack house and gets hooked on drugs again, do people blame the dealer. No! They say the junkie put him/herself in a position to get drugs, hence they are at fault. The same goes for a HOOKER who goes to dance at a party witn a BUNCH OF DRUNK MEN and doesn't bring along any protection.

3. Why are many people so readily to believe these boys raped the HOOKER. Is it possible that they were scumbags who employed her services, then didn't pay? Yes, however unlikely that may be because of the UTTER LACK OF DNA EVIDENCE on her person, clothes or effects. If this were a white woman, do you honestly believe the case would get as much attention? No, the news would not be that imflammatory and sensational then.

4. If this was some case from Joe Blow down the street that didn't get national new, would the boys be arrested. No. Based on my experience with law enforcement and the evidence that has been reported on the news, the evidence is strictly hearsay and no concrete connecting has been found between rape, these boys, or even is a rape was committed. If none is found, the prosecuter should be disciplined by the North Carolina bar association and be baned from practice for at least a year for over-zelous prosecution (look it up, there is a statute against it).

5. Duke University should sue the lady for slander against the university. The individual players should sue her for the same. The players who lost further opportunities in the sport should file a civil suit to collect lost income. Any player who lost any scholorship money should sue her for the loss. She should be buried so deep in debt that she will have to get a second job hooking to start paying her way out of it.

6. Points 4 and 5 are dependant on her claim being found false (and I believe it will be).
#113 Apr 18 2006 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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Diveos wrote:
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No, from what I see Totem thinks that she got what she deserved


Actually he said she was "Asking" for it.

Deserving something and acting so irresponsibly that there is no other logical outcome are two different things.


Yeah, "She's here, and naked. Might as well rape her." Tch...

Anyway, who cares if she made a mistake to be in the situation? Is that a punishable offense? Unless you think that it lessens the severity of the crime (which would be absurdly stupid) then that has absolutely no bearing on the conversation.

People just bring that up to dillute the seriousness of the act of rape. Its a silly ploy to trick yourself into believing that it's okay.
#114 Apr 18 2006 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
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Moreover, when you consider these two women had no muscle to watch over them at this gig, doesn't that automatically mean they are free lance whores?


No.

Seconded.



Thirded. The sentiment is so illogical (I want X I get X, even if I negotiated for Y (oh ya, and X is illegal by the way)) that in a few years time when this topic arises, I believe the tone of discussion will be far, far different.

(or n-thed I didn't skim the whole freakin thread looking for others)
#115 Apr 18 2006 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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fenderputy the Shady wrote:
Totem wrote:
I suppose a hooker can be raped in the sense like a cabby can turn off his overhead fare light and not take any riders, but considering that she was, for all practical purposes, at this party with her meter running and the doors wide open to her "cab," she was open for business.

It's not like she was at home snuggled in bed with her two children at her side reading a nighty-night story to them, when someone bursts in through the window and rapes her at gunpoint.

She was on the job, folks. See the difference?

Totem


While I think the woman is full of ****, none of what you said matters. If the woman was forced to have sex against her will, she was rapped.


Exactly.
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#116 Apr 18 2006 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
Well here's the latest that I read a few minutes ago. I knew that they had arrested two players but not the rest of the information the article provided.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060419/ap_on_sp_co_ne/duke_lacrosse

Quote:
By TIM WHITMIRE, Associated Press Writer
43 minutes ago

DURHAM, N.C. - Two Duke University lacrosse players were arrested on rape charges Tuesday in a scandal that has rocked one of America's elite campuses and raised explosive questions of race, class and the privileged status of college athletes.

The two players — both graduates of Northern prep schools — were promptly booked and released on bail. District Attorney Mike Nifong said a third player could also be arrested but has yet to be firmly identified.

"It is important that we not only bring the assailants to justice, but also that we lift the cloud of suspicion from those team members who were not involved in the assault," Nifong said.

Lawyers for the two men bitterly assailed the district attorney for bringing the charges. Other attorneys for Duke's lacrosse players said the two were not even present at the time the rape is alleged to have occurred.

Reade Seligmann, 20, of Essex Fells, N.J., and Collin Finnerty, 19, of Garden City, N.Y., are accused of attacking a stripper at a team party at an off-campus house on the night of March 13. They were charged with first-degree rape, sexual offense and kidnapping and were released on $400,000 bail each.

The district attorney would not say what evidence led to the charges. But Seligmann's attorney, Kirk Osborn, said: "Apparently it was a photographic identification. And we all know how reliable that is."

Seligmann is "absolutely innocent," Osborn said. "He's doing great." Finnerty's attorney, Bill Cotter, said: "The next jury will hear the entire story, which includes our evidence, and we're confident that these young men will be found to be innocent."

The case has raised racial tensions and heightened the long-standing town-vs.-gown antagonism between Duke students and middle class, racially mixed Durham. The accuser is black, and all but one of the 47 lacrosse team members are white.

Well before the scandal, the nationally ranked team had a reputation for a swaggering sense of entitlement and boorish frat-boy behavior that included public intoxication and public urination. After the scandal broke, the university announced an investigation into whether it put up with such behavior for too long.

The case has led to the resignation of the coach and the cancellation of the rest of the season.

"Many lives have been touched by this case," said Duke President Richard Brodhead in a statement. "It has brought pain and suffering to all involved, and it deeply challenges our ability to balance judgment with compassion. As the legal process unfolds, we must hope that it brings a speedy resolution and that the truth of the events is fully clarified."

The university would not comment specifically on any disciplinary action taken against the two men but said it is Duke practice to suspend students charged with a felony.

Both players are products of wealthy New York City suburbs and all-male Roman Catholic prep schools. Finnerty attended Long Island's Chaminade High School, where 99 percent of the students go on to college. Seligmann went to the exclusive Delbarton School, a lacrosse powerhouse in Morristown, N.J.

"It is our hope and our conviction that the full truth of all that happened that night will vindicate Reade of these charges," Delbarton's headmaster, the Rev. Luke L. Travers, said in a statement.

Neither Seligmann and Finnerty was among the Duke team members arrested in recent years for such offenses as underage drinking and public urination.

Finnerty, however, was charged in Washington with assault after a man told police in November that Finnerty and two friends punched him and called him "gay and other derogatory names." Finnerty agreed to community service.

Seligmann, a 6-foot-1 sophomore, and Finnerty, a 6-foot-3 sophomore, were in handcuffs when they stepped out of a police cruiser at the Durham County Jail early Tuesday. Their early-morning surrenders were arranged as part of a deal with Nifong in which they were bailed out of jail in a matter of hours.

At a brief court appearance, Finnerty stood in jacket and tie as a May 15 date was set for the next hearing in the case. Seligmann waived his right to appear in court and was represented by one of his lawyers.

The district attorney has said that the woman making the allegations, a 27-year-old student and mother of two, was attacked by three men. In a statement, Nifong said he hopes to charge a third person, "but the evidence available to me at this time does not permit that. Investigation into the identity of the third assailant will continue in the hope that he can also be identified with certainty."

Attorneys for the players have demanded Nifong drop the investigation, arguing that DNA tests failed to connect any of the team members to the alleged rape. They have also charged that the accuser was intoxicated and injured when she showed up for the party.

"This is probably the worst miscarriage of justice I've seen in 34 years of practice," said another Seligmann lawyer, Julian Mack.

Bill Thomas, a lawyer for a player who has not been charged, said that one of the two men under indictment did not even attend the party. He would not specify which one, saying only that "multiple witnesses and a commercial transaction" would provide an alibi.

According to a filing made by the district attorney's office, the residents of the house where the party took place told police that Seligmann was one of six players who did not attend the party.

Another attorney, Robert Ekstrand, who represents dozens of players, said neither Seligmann nor Finnerty was at the party "at the relevant time."

The indictment represents "a horrible circumstance and a product of a rush to judgment," Ekstrand said.


I also find it fascinating that Nifong is going about this so fanatically. He's up for re-election, imagine the repercussions to his career if this blows up in his face.

#117 Apr 18 2006 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, I completely agree with you two. 110%, I already covered that. Fu'cking neuter the bastards if they really are guilty.

But this whole thing about "none of what you say matters" crap your trying to ride your high-horse down on or resident negro is fu'cking BS rhetoric. Neither one of us are arguing that they shouldn't be fu'cked up if they are guilty.

THIS WOMAN WAS ON THE JOB. She took money for sex (NOT FORCED). She thought she didn't get enough money, so she cried rape. Her lawyer said she should play the race card, and here we are.

She is a hooker who had sex for money. She felt she didn't get enough money, so she cried rape.

Can we make it any clearer? Would you like a pie chart? Do pretty pictures help?


This sets and even scarier president though. Imagine the fat business men who are ******** their pants that their next "date" will demand double the price or she'll be next in line at the PD.
Heaven forbid she be colored and he is not. It'll be the next epidemic! I can see it now...

Colored "dancers" raped nation wide by CEO's

Business "meetings" as we know it are in danger!
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#118 Apr 18 2006 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Can we make it any clearer? Would you like a pie chart? Do pretty pictures help?


I understand what you're saying. I just feel that your allegations are unproven.
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#119 Apr 18 2006 at 9:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, now that I can respect.
We shall see how the case pans out.
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You're a fucking ***. Fuck you and the fucktruck you fucked in on. - RIP PicklePrince

So I guess that while God says that the meek shall inherit the earth, the fucking stupid are screwed? - Althrun
#120 Apr 18 2006 at 9:47 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
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Can we make it any clearer? Would you like a pie chart? Do pretty pictures help?


I understand what you're saying. I just feel that your allegations are unproven.


Yeah. About as unproven as the prosecutors allegations. Moreso in fact. I've been following this story and kinda sitting on the sidelines. However, unless there's a heck of a lot more evidence then what's been presented, this case will not go anywhere. As a few people have mentioned, if it wasn't for the fact that this was a black stipper and a group of wealthy white kids, this case would have been dropped weeks ago.

Makes you wonder where the racism is in this case?


In any case, I think alot of people are really running ahead of the facts. She claims she was raped. However, there's little to no evidence of rape. And there's certainly no evidence of who might have raped her if she was. The only facts we really have is that she was "hurt" (had bruising on her body). We do know that she was involved in some sexual activity. I've yet to hear any absolute confirmation of rape though (which they *can* tell very reliably by looking at vaginal tearing patterns). We know that she and another stripper went to the party. We know that they both went there without any bodyguards to watch out for them. We also know that the other stripper has not claimed any sort of rape or assault. We know that several witnesses have stated that she had bruises on her body prior to arriving at the party.


The real problem here is the amazing lack of corroboration of her claim. She was raped, but the other girl who worked with her didn't know about it? Even *after* they left? She just ran out of the house by herself, calls someone for a ride, then shows up some time later at another location and calls police? It's just such a bizaare set of circumstances. And it's virtually impossible to prove. She's essentially arguing a word-against-word case, and most of the "word" is in opposition to her story.

In order to believe her story, you have to disbelieve the security guard who saw her after the event. You have to disbelieve the witnesses who saw her before the event. You have to disbelieve the testimony of everyone at the party. You have to ignore the lack of corroboration by her partner at the party. You have to ignore the largish gap of time between the alleged rape and her call to police.

Basically, you have to ignore everything except her claim and some *very* broad physical evidence that can't prove the key things that physical evidence needs to prove (who, what, where, and when). More importantly, you can't prove a "why" in this case either. We can assume that she was an innocent stripper, place no weight in the facts that she's prostituted herself before, and no weight in the fact that she didn't have a bodyguard, and conclude that any sex that may have occured in that house was non-consentual. Or, we can conclude that those facts mean that likely any sex *was* consentual (and the result of payment).


While it's not impossible for a prostitute to be raped. It's pretty much impossible to prove that a stripper who has performed sex for money in the past, and who shows up at a party to strip without a guard, has been raped. Ultimately, that's the problem with this case. Without hard physical evidence and eye-witness corroboration of rape, I just can't see how it's possible to get a conviction in this case.
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#121 Apr 18 2006 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
Given everything you have posted up there Gbaji, the question is if you were Nifong would you be crusading this hard? Understandably he is attempting to capitalize on this and make a name for himself. But given all the evidence that has been presented to the public in tandem with all the glaring discrepancies in her story, even the greenest attorney can see a losing battle.

So the question now is why is he going after the players so fervently? There always remains the chance that what she has said did in fact happen. But it seems highly doubtful.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but didn't all the duke players participate in testing to verify it wasn't them? If that is the case, why bring charges up against two innocent people?
#122 Apr 18 2006 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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So the question now is why is he going after the players so fervently?


Publicity?
#123 Apr 18 2006 at 10:47 PM Rating: Good
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Diveos wrote:
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So the question now is why is he going after the players so fervently?


Publicity?


I'd wager that at least some of you are letting the massive amounts of media coverage skew your perception of how the prosecutor is handling the case.
#124 Apr 18 2006 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent


Not that I have read any of this thread, as my hands are tied enough with that Niobia thread-- I feel the need to mention this. I don't like black womens tits.

That's all. I'm done.
#125 Apr 19 2006 at 12:05 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah. About as unproven as the prosecutors allegations. Moreso in fact. I've been following this story and kinda sitting on the sidelines.


Goodness. Has anyone alerted the District Attorney down there that a middle aged cell phone repairman is montioring his legal case? I imagine he'd just drop the charges immediately.


However, unless there's a heck of a lot more evidence then what's been presented, this case will not go anywhere. As a few people have mentioned, if it wasn't for the fact that this was a black stipper and a group of wealthy white kids, this case would have been dropped weeks ago.


Wow. Patently ludicrous unless you're at a KKK meeting. I mean really LUDICROUS. You're implying that if a white student at Duke went to a party then went to the hospital beaten saying she was raped by the same guys that the case would be dropped? That they'd all have a good laugh together over mint julips?

If it wasn't for the fact that this was a black stripper and a group of wealthy white kids, cell phone repairmen from San Diego might no being weighing in it. So really, I guess it is sort of a shame race was involved.


Makes you wonder where the racism is in this case?


About 20 miles north of El Cajon I'd say.


In any case, I think alot of people are really running ahead of the facts. She claims she was raped. However, there's little to no evidence of rape.


Aside from the fact that she went to the hospital, they examined her and determined she had injujries consistent with rape. I mean once you throw that out, not much evidence at all aside from her saying she was raped.



And there's certainly no evidence of who might have raped her if she was.


Like...a video tape or something you mean? Or one of the alleged rapists saying "Man, I love raping black chicks."?

There's certainly way *MORE* eveidence than there is in 90% of sucessfull rape convictions. That doesn't mean the kids are guilty. It certainly means there's enough to indicite them.


The only facts we really have is that she was "hurt" (had bruising on her body). We do know that she was involved in some sexual activity. I've yet to hear any absolute confirmation of rape though (which they *can* tell very reliably by looking at vaginal tearing patterns).


No they can't. Are you high? It's not rape if there isn't sufficent vaginal tearing??

Did you get some sort of "Mysoginists guide to rape exams" or something?



We know that she and another stripper went to the party. We know that they both went there without any bodyguards to watch out for them. We also know that the other stripper has not claimed any sort of rape or assault. We know that several witnesses have stated that she had bruises on her body prior to arriving at the party.


Ok. Assuming that's all true and complete and not just random snippets of information presented by the media, so what? Isn't it fascinating though how the media will report a juicy rape case completely accurately in every detail sufficent for a cell phone repair man to come to judgement about the merits of the case, but skew EVERYTHING else towards their own agenda?

Pretty amazing.


The real problem here is the amazing lack of corroboration of her claim.


Not required to prove rape. Never has been. Never will be.


She was raped, but the other girl who worked with her didn't know about it? Even *after* they left? She just ran out of the house by herself, calls someone for a ride, then shows up some time later at another location and calls police? It's just such a bizaare set of circumstances.


Oddly, many women who've just been brutally raped and have low self esteem to begin with occasioanlly don't rush out to have "I was just raped!" tee shirts made up. For some strange reason, they occassionally are confused, in shock and unsure of what to do.


And it's virtually impossible to prove. She's essentially arguing a word-against-word case, and most of the "word" is in opposition to her story.


And, you starting sentances with conjuctions is getting REALLY old. And redundant. And hard to read without grimmacing.


In order to believe her story, you have to disbelieve the security guard who saw her after the event. You have to disbelieve the witnesses who saw her before the event. You have to disbelieve the testimony of everyone at the party. You have to ignore the lack of corroboration by her partner at the party. You have to ignore the largish gap of time between the alleged rape and her call to police.


None of that is inconsitent with her having been raped. None of it. That doesn't mean she was, but it CERTAINLY doesn't mean she wasn't.


Basically, you have to ignore everything except her claim and some *very* broad physical evidence that can't prove the key things that physical evidence needs to prove (who, what, where, and when). More importantly, you can't prove a "why" in this case either. We can assume that she was an innocent stripper, place no weight in the facts that she's prostituted herself before, and no weight in the fact that she didn't have a bodyguard, and conclude that any sex that may have occured in that house was non-consentual. Or, we can conclude that those facts mean that likely any sex *was* consentual (and the result of payment).


Wow. Is it 1952? Did I miss something? A woman having had sex consentually in the past means it's less likely she was raped???


While it's not impossible for a prostitute to be raped. It's pretty much impossible to prove that a stripper who has performed sex for money in the past, and who shows up at a party to strip without a guard, has been raped.


Just kill yourself.

Has it really been that hard for you to get laid that you could have such a bizzarely skewed vision of women? Is someone who was a boxer isn't less likely to have been assulted? Is a Nascar driver less likely to have a car stolen?

What a ludicrous argument.


Ultimately, that's the problem with this case. Without hard physical evidence and eye-witness corroboration of rape, I just can't see how it's possible to get a conviction in this case.


Ultimately the problem with rape cases is MORONS LIKE YOU ending up on juries. There's more than enough evidence here for a jury to come to a decision. They may decide there was no rape. There may have been no rape. Hopefully they won't walk into the courtroom convinced it's impossible that this woman is telling the truth because of her sexual history or the color of her skin.

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#126 Apr 19 2006 at 12:10 AM Rating: Decent
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LtGoose the Hand wrote:
Not that I have read any of this thread, as my hands are tied enough with that Niobia thread-- I feel the need to mention this. I don't like black womens tits.

That's all. I'm done.
Agreed.
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