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Very true! If you earn your money, you are more than likely going to hold on to, becuase you know how much you worked your *** off to get.(Paying your dues)You will more likely make good decisions about spending your money.

~"Give a man a fish he will eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, he will eat for a lifetime"~

Something like that, but you know what I mean.^^ lol

Edited, Mon Apr 17 18:37:11 2006 by kalaria

None of which changes the fact that anyone who spends less then he earns can and will accumulate wealth. You're listing excuses. Not facts. I think you'd be stunned at the number of people I work with who paid their way through college and did *not* come from wealthy homes. Somehow they manged to make a better life for themselves. Again. There's no guarantee that everyone will be able to do this. But I'm talking about opportunity. Right now anyone *can* do it.



Why is there a need to demonize anyone? That's a victim mentality. Why have it in the first place? I'm personally of the opinion that the first step needed to make one's life better is to take responsiblity for one's live in the first place. Placing the blame for everything on other people isn't going to help you. And certainly blaming people who are successful is just silly. It's pettty jealousy.

Maybe if people spent less time blaming others and more time working on improving their own lives, things would be better for them? Just a thought...




I've already explained (at length) why this wont work, and in fact why it'll hurt exactly the people you most want to help.

There is no evidence to support your assumpion that redirecting that wealth into social services will increase productivity. None at all. It would give them more cash in their pockets, but that does not increase productivity. It just increases consumption. But if the profits from that consumption are heavily taxed (which is what you'd have to do to support your model), overall productivity does not actually increase at all.

In fact, every single piece of evidence says the exact opposite. Nations that adopt these strategies see *higher* unemployment rates (less productivity per person, right?). Nations that adopt those strategies also see a marked drop in GDP growth over time as well (compared to nations that don't). Sure, "the people" live a tiny bit more comfortable, but at the expense of future opportunity and growth. Over time, their standard of living drops relative to more free market societies simply because the ability of the economy to support a rising standard of living fails to keep pace. It costs an ever growing portion of GDP to maintain those social services, and the productive rate keeps decreasing over time, meaning that the pie gets smaller and the portion of the pie used to keep the people happy keeps growing. Even if the system doesn't collapse, it will fall steadily behind other nations.


I went to great length to explain the exact math involved here. You don't tax people. You tax economic events. When you try to tax "the rich", what you are really taxing is capital gains. But for the ultra rich, all you really do is slow down their rate of wealth accumulation (it's a "capital gain", right? Think about it). You don't actualy tax *them*. You just reduce the amount of money they can reinvest each year. This doesn't hurt them really. It hurts the industries they would have invested in. It hurts the people they might have employed with that money. Ultimately, it hurts the working class. Almost exclusively. They are the ones who find it harder to get a car, home or business loan. They are the ones who find it harder to get a good paying job. They are the ones who find it harder to save up enough money for retirement. They are the ones who find it'll take them longer to save enough to allow them to be financially independant.


The fact is that raising taxes on "the rich" pretty much only does one thing: It makes it harder for anyone who is not already wealthy to accumulate wealth. If we were to adopt your economic ideas then it *would* be impossible for a working class person to get ahead. If we follow conservative economic principles then anyone can. That's the differece. It's all about providing opportunity. Not taking opportunity away from the people in exchange for a few luxuries today.

I understand what you are saying, both you and gbaji have good points. I also believe that some people just follow democrats just because they don't like republicans. Both Dem. and Rep. have good and bad arguements. I'm sorry taxing the rich is retarded, most of them prolly worked hard for their money, why should they have to give it to me? It would ***** up the economy more. :(

Saying that the poor or working class poor never have a chance to obtain wealth is a general statement. They can, the resources are out there, it is possible. Don't feel like a victim, all it will do is hold you back. Yes, some of the governments policies and the way they handle the welfare system is retarded, but it should not be an excuse.

Education is very important. If you don't have a High School diploma you can get a GED. Student loans are an option to go to school, some people don't like to take that option, but if it will help you with your education then go for it, along with work study.

Government aid can help, this is coming from someone who has gotten food stamps and WIC before. Gov't aid is not meant to be a lifestyle, it is meant to help you until you can get on your feet and financially sustain yourself. Sadly some people abuse the system. There is section8, housing goes by your income, HUD programs allow people to get houses with low income. Help is out there, but if one allows themselves to feel downtrodden9(sp?) by society they won't get anywhere. You fight your way out, and try to increase awareness about healthcare reform and welfare reform along the way. It does noone anygood to choose to stay in that situation and complain.

The main thing to include is personal responsiblity. I know people that won't go to college because they don't want to get a student loan or do work study. So who is to blame? them selves. Me, I grew up in a working class poor household, where my college saving was squandered away, so I was left with nothing. But I didnt let that stop me, yeah I had nothing no money saved living paycheck to paycheck, but you choose to get out or stay in whatever situation your in. Also some poor people are too proud to get gov't assistance, they would rather struggle even more than ask for help. I know someone personally who has 7kids between her and her sister, I tell them they need to get food stamps/wic/tanf whatever they can to assist them. They tell me no, they dont want any handouts. I also tell them to stop having damn kids when their struggling already. Some people dont listen and continue down that path due to bad decisions/pride.

Gov't aid will also provide daycare assistance so you can go to school and/or work. If someone is not willing or do not have urgency to get out of that vicious circle, they won't. Some make it out, some don't. Also, another factor people need to stop having kids when they can't afford it. It is not that hard to put on a condom, or use a contraceptive. On medicaid you can get birthcontrol for free or a small fee. If you can't afford kids dont have them.

The main point I'm trying to make is you work your *** off to get where you want to be, and don't let any situation stop you. Anyone can achieve riches and eventually wealth, only you can stop you.


Edited, Mon Apr 17 19:30:58 2006 by kalaria

Edited, Mon Apr 17 19:35:24 2006 by kalaria

B-I-N-G-O and bingo was her name-O.

You hit the nail on the head. Your situation is what you make of it. I didn't like mine, so I made it better. ANYONE can do it.

"That is unless you ..ummm CAN'T AFFORD to put away %15 percent of your income.... or.... CAN'T get a job because you're are too uneducated...and you CAN'T AFFORD to go to school because you aren't educated enugh to know about loans...
OR don't have time because you are already working two jobs to support yourself because your FAMILY was in the same boat that you are in and have been for hundreds of years."

=====================================

Excuses.....opportunities abound. They are there if one really hungers to change their life. How hungry are you? I won't waste any more time trying to convince people who can afford computers and web access that they have the power to change their lives. You have to want to change it. Entitlement belief at it's worst....

true.

and also:



You do something about your situation and make it better for you and your family. Sometime things dont just fall in your lap, you got hunt for them. You gotta be on the grind telling yourself you can do anything no matter what.

Hmm...don't recall ever saying EVERYONE when talking about people being able to do better did I? owned...pffft

I really am sorry you have to try harder than the average bear, but these posts really do not apply in your case. I think you might agree, at least I hope so, that your life experiences have made you tougher than the average bear too.

Edited, Mon Apr 17 20:19:56 2006 by Mellina

Edited, Mon Apr 17 20:35:05 2006 by Mellina

OW! Stop being so hurtful...lighten up sport. sheesh...

edited, and you don't want to try getting my hand anywhere near a place below your waistband. So who might Dana be then? lol

"He's better than you, that's all you need know."

Maybe, maybe not, doesn't really mean anything now does it? No insult or disrespect meant toward that poster by me. Any other personal insults you'd like to try throwing my way? Have at it. Means less than something I'd scrape off my shoe.

Any comments I made stand regarding the OP's comment.

Well, that may be, but as a complete and utter moran (moron?), I'll continue to post as long as I feel I can add to a discussion. And, as long as the admins allow me to. If I break any rules of the forums, I guess I deserve whatever comes my way. Far as I am aware, that hasn't happened. Rate em down...I don't care. I'm not posting here as some sort of contest to be the most interesting or popular. I am new to these forums, lurked a bit and when I found topics that interested me, I responded. You don't agree with my point of view, fine, makes for a better discussion. But don't feel that your bullying will affect me. If you have the power to ban me from the forums and I broke the rules, then ban me. Otherwise, get used to seeing me. Or not...your choice. And now, I am done as I commented on the OP's message.

Wow..way of topic..then again this is the Asylum..hehehehehhe

Anyway, sucessful people don't have excuses, they have stories of their failures, what they learned from them, what they did to fix them, and how they made money off the knowledge they learned.