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#27 Jun 16 2004 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/02.html#3

Quote:
Requirements for establishing probable cause through reliance on information received from an informant has divided the Court in several cases. Although involving a warrantless arrest, Draper v. United States 103 may be said to have begun the line of cases.

A previously reliable, named informant reported to an officer that the defendant would arrive with narcotics on a particular train, and described the clothes he would be wearing and the bag he would be carrying; the informant, however, gave no basis for his information. FBI agents met the train, observed that the defendant fully answered the description, and arrested him. The Court held that the corroboration of part of the informer's tip established probable cause to support the arrest.

A case involving a search warrant, Jones v. United States, 104 apparently utilized a test of considering the affidavit as a whole to see whether the tip plus the corroborating information provided a substantial basis for finding probable cause, but the affidavit also set forth the reliability of the informer and sufficient detail to indicate that the tip was based on the informant's personal observation. Aguilar v. Texas 105 held insufficient an affidavit which merely asserted that the police had ''reliable information from a credible person'' that narcotics were in a certain place, and held that when the affiant relies on an informant's tip he must present two types of evidence to the magistrate. First, the affidavit must indicate the informant's basis of knowledge--the circumstances from which the informant concluded that evidence was present or that crimes had been committed--and, second, the affiant must present information which would permit the magistrate to decide whether or not the informant was trustworthy. Then, in Spinelli v. United States, 106 the Court applied Aguilar in a situation in which the affidavit contained both an informant's tip and police information of a corroborating nature.






Edited, Wed Jun 16 13:20:41 2004 by trickybeck
#28 Jun 16 2004 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Objection, relevance.

What's the point of the quote there, to demonstrate how an informant can provide probable cause?
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#29 Jun 16 2004 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
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PJ would be the informant in this case, possibly giving enough probable cause for a search warrant.

They would need an affidavit stating:

1. "the informant's basis of knowledge--the circumstances from which the informant concluded that evidence was present or that crimes had been committed."

That one's easy.


2. "the affiant must present information which would permit the magistrate to decide whether or not the informant was trustworthy."

They weren't clear on what makes someone "trustworthy," but...


...Here's an example of someone satisfying parts 1 and 2:

Quote:
the Court in United States v. Harris 107 approved a warrant issued largely on an informer's tip that over a two-year period he had purchased illegal whiskey from the defendant at the defendant's residence, most re cently within two weeks of the tip. The affidavit contained rather detailed information about the concealment of the whiskey, and asserted that the informer was a ''prudent person,'' that defendant had a reputation as a bootlegger, that other persons had supplied similar information about him, and that he had been found in control of illegal whiskey within the previous four years. The Court determined that the detailed nature of the tip, the personal observation thus revealed, and the fact that the informer had admitted to criminal behavior by his purchase of whiskey were sufficient to enable the magistrate to find him reliable, and that the supporting evidence, including defendant's reputation, could supplement this determination.


Unless they don't find PJ trustworthy cause he's one a dem darn homos, I think it would hold up in court.

#30 Jun 16 2004 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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And furthermore:

Quote:
The Court expressly abandoned the two-part Aguilar-Spinelli test and returned to the ''totality of the circumstances'' approach to evaluate probable cause based on an informant's tip in Illinois v. Gates. 108 The main defect of the two-part test, Justice Rehnquist concluded for the Court, was in treating an informant's reliability and his basis for knowledge as independent requirements. Instead, ''a deficiency in one may be compensated for, in determining the overall reliability of a tip, by a strong showing as to the other, or by some other indicia of reliability.'' 109 In evaluating probable cause, ''[t]he task of the issuing magistrate is simply to make a practical, commonsense decision whether, given all the circumstances set forth in the affidavit before him, including the 'veracity' and 'basis of knowledge' of persons supplying hearsay information, there is a fair probability that contraband or evidence of a crime will be found in a particular place.''



#31 Jun 16 2004 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Sure, go get the search warrant.

Fourth post down,

Quote:

You could call the cops, and they could get a warrant, or go knock on the door and ask to come in, that'd be a diffrent story.


Anythig else that you want to argue for that I've stated ten posts ago?

Same post:

Quote:

The defense in court, of course, is: "My client had no knowledge of this substance before the premises were entered by the owners (likely illegally)." Move to dismiss, have a nice day.


Still applies and it gets laughed out of court, although not on Fourth Amendemnt grounds *if* they get a warrant.

Edited, Wed Jun 16 13:48:45 2004 by Smasharoo
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#32 Jun 16 2004 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Okay, but 8th post down you repeated the fourth amendment argument, is all.

Fine, we're done here, move along.
#33 Jun 16 2004 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Because it is a Fourth Amendement argument.
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#34 Jun 16 2004 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
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sigh Smiley: rolleyes
#35 Jun 16 2004 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you want to arrest him with your private police force, and put him in your private prison because in your private court you find the evidence admissable as the private judge
I tried that with the neighbor's teenage daughter. It didn't go so well.
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#36 Jun 16 2004 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I tried that with the neighbor's teenage daughter. It didn't go so well.

That's because you need probable cause of her hotness first.
#37 Jun 16 2004 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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What do you want me to do? It's a fourth amendment issue if the cops show up and find pot in the room because PJ calls them and they don't get a warrant first.

Done arguing that it's not yet?

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#38 Jun 16 2004 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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I wasn't arguing that they didn't need a warrant.

I was arguing against the following statements:

Quote:
Well, it varies by state, but regardless of the door being open it's virtually impossible that it's legal for you to enter someone else's habitation, find some pot and have it be admissable.


Quote:
If you want to arrest him with your private police force, and put him in your private prison because in your private court you find the evidence admissable as the private judge, feel free.
#39 Jun 16 2004 at 1:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Ok, what about either of those quotes do you find fault with?
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#40 Jun 16 2004 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
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Jesus, it's like pulling teeth!!

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#41 Jun 16 2004 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

haha, you just won't admit when you're wrong.


Ah, the irony.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#42 Jun 16 2004 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Well, it varies by state, but regardless of the door being open it's virtually impossible that it's legal for you to enter someone else's habitation, find some pot and have it be admissable.

It's entirely possible for it to be admissable.


Quote:
If you want to arrest him with your private police force, and put him in your private prison because in your private court you find the evidence admissable as the private judge, feel free.

Again, I showed that evidence resulting from an illegal, but private citizen search can be admissible. It doesn't poison it simply by virtue of the fact that PJ entered the room and found it first.




Edited, Wed Jun 16 14:18:02 2004 by trickybeck
#43 Jun 16 2004 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

Again, I showed that evidence resulting from an illegal, but private citizen search can be admissible. It doesn't poison it.


You did? I must have missed that. Was that when you linked the thing about school searches? Of course it poisons it.

Look, if you get a warrant, the Fourth Amendment ceases to apply and we're arguing evidentary rules. If you don't get a warrant, it does and you've violated it.

It's about scope.

If I break into your house and find tapes of you having sex with an elephant (assuming that's illegal) and I call the cops, the fourth amendment applies. If I mail the tape to the cops, it doesn't. I have the same expectation of privacy regardless.

Ask Claus Von Bulow.





Edited, Wed Jun 16 15:01:40 2004 by Smasharoo
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#44 Jun 16 2004 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
If yall are gonna argue this, here are the facts.

1) Security came to front desk to tell me a room had it's door wide open and the room was trashed.

2) I lock the lobby doors to go inspect the room for damage.

3) Upon inspection for damage, I spotted a roach in the bedside ashtray.

4) I told security, who was with me, about it.

5) He inspects it and identifies it as marijuana.

6) He calls Charleston County Police.

7) They don't do **** because they don't want to mess with the paper work.

8) They supervise the guest getting his stuff out of the room and advise him to stay off property.


Okay, yall may resume.
#45 Jun 16 2004 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Nah, it's a silly argument.

I'm done with it. Those three years of Law School were well worth the effort.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#46 Jun 16 2004 at 3:59 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You did? I must have missed that. Was that when you linked the thing about school searches? Of course it poisons it.

You didn't like the source about schools, so I linked to a better source that gave the exact same information, but whatever.


I never said a warrant wasn't necessary. I simply said police can use PJ's search & testimony as probable cause to obtain a warrant. Simple as that.



Also, either someone disagrees with you or you have a karma stalker. ;)

#47 Jun 16 2004 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

I never said a warrant wasn't necessary.


Yeah that kind of makes all the links to things regarding the fourth amendment kind of useless, doesn't it?

Quote:

I simply said police can use PJ's search & testimony as probable cause to obtain a warrant. Simple as that.


Doubt they'd get one, but that's a seperate issue.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#48 Jun 16 2004 at 4:03 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

Also, either someone disagrees with you or you have a karma stalker. ;)


Yeah, I know who it is. In another year or so they'll have me down to 3.15.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#49 Jun 16 2004 at 4:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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