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I'm going to sound a little like I'm channeling Totem here..Follow

#1 Apr 23 2004 at 9:56 PM Rating: Decent
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040424/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq&cid=540&ncid=716




Radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr threatened Friday to unleash suicide bombers if U.S. troops move against him in Iraq (news - web sites)'s holiest Shiite city, and his militiamen attacked a Bulgarian convoy, killing a soldier. Meanwhile, police in Basra arrested five Iraqis believed linked to al-Qaida and suspected in brutal suicide bombings Wednesday that killed 74 people.


....


U.S. forces massed on the outskirts of Najaf have said they have no intention of moving in for the time being to capture al-Sadr — fully aware that an American entry into the holy city would spark a wave of outrage among Iraq's Shiite Muslim majority


We need to set up a refugee camp, as much of a pain in the *** as that is, get the civillians out of Najaf as much as possible..

And level it.

I'm not a big proponent of the "Arabs only understand violence" school of thought, but in this case I think an example would go a long way. I don't think it would win us any hearts and minds, and I don't think it would frighten Syria or Iran into suddenly becoming our buddies, but I think it very likely would prevent the nightmare scenario of dozens of local warlords popping up to contest leadership of Iraq.

I realize it's a holy city, and that this would damage our image with the Shi'ites. I realize the UN wouldn't like it.

This Mexican standoff ******** get's people killed though. US people. F'ed up ROE and negoiating via Iranians with thugs is an inherantly bad idea. If we've learned anything about urban warfare in the past 20 years it's that half measures get the good guys killed and let the bad guys operate with impunity.

Ok, I now return you to your regularly schedlued left wing whacko 'Roo.
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#2 Apr 23 2004 at 10:09 PM Rating: Good
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Scary experience, isn't it? Did you have a barely suppressed urge to goose step around while packing heat and quoting/shouting the Second Amendment as loud as you possibly could?

<Whew!> An out-of-body experience of that sort requires a six pack of Sam Adams lagar just to wind down...

:D

Totem
#3 Apr 23 2004 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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I dunno, I say if you do it, you would have to go do a near silmultaneous strike on Falluja and Najaf. The message you would want is, Sunni, Shi'ite, whe don't give a ****, stop kidnapping and blowing **** up. A few indescriminate B-52 passes aught to get the message across.

#4 Apr 23 2004 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Probably. There's not much left to blow up in Faluja I here though.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#5 Apr 23 2004 at 11:33 PM Rating: Good
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They speak B-52 well. It's sort of a universal language.

R U N
#6 Apr 25 2004 at 5:50 AM Rating: Good
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Yikkes. Yeah. The "good news" is that Al-Sadr has finally shown his colors openly (not that too many people were in doubt). The bad news is that he's put us in yet another picklement.

I don't know if leveling it's the right solution tough. Ultimately, we still want/need to move the "moderate" Shiites to "our side". What we'll want to do is make Al-Sadr become the bad guy to Iraqi's in general. Openly announcing he'll use suicide bombers helps us alot. Leveling the city probably will not. I would consider doing something like letting anyone who wants to leave leave the city, and then just bottle it up and kill anyone who apporaches from it, but that would just let his "freedom fighter" mysique grow.

This is going to seem totally wrong, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it, but the only way I see for a long term victory against this guy is to face his bombers. Don't be stupid, but don't take draconian measures against the populace in general. A few (maybe more then a few) attacks will get through, but if the attacks take on the usual suicide bomber pattern, they'll be targeted as much at random citizens as at military personnel. This will serve to side the Iraqi's in general with us and against Sadr.

If we back off, or keep our distance, he will just target Sunnis, and we'll be blamed for not protecting them. If we go in whole hog to "get him", we'll kill a bunch fo Shiites, and possibly make a martyr out of him. Take the moderate approach, and he'll turn himself into nothing more then a common criminal in most Iraqi's eyes.
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#7 Apr 25 2004 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Level them both. Then level anywhere else **** like this pops up. Rinse and repeat until they get the picture.
#8 Apr 25 2004 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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because, you know, iraqis arent really people so we are completely justified in killing all of them because of a relatively small number of dissidents.

you disgust me, OCN
#9 Apr 25 2004 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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We need to set up a refugee camp, as much of a pain in the *** as that is, get the civillians out of Najaf as much as possible..

And level it.


Reading comprehension is your friend
#10 Apr 25 2004 at 4:47 PM Rating: Decent
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If we back off, or keep our distance, he will just target Sunnis, and we'll be blamed for not protecting them. If we go in whole hog to "get him", we'll kill a bunch fo Shiites, and possibly make a martyr out of him. Take the moderate approach, and he'll turn himself into nothing more then a common criminal in most Iraqi's eyes.

It's far too late not to alienate the Shiites. You need to get past that. They'll view him as the lesser evil to us regardless of what he does. There's no political capital left to lose, doubly so in Falluja. There's reports from the UK and elsewhere of US snipers taking targets through hospital windows during the ifghting last week and death tolls near 1,000 Iraqis.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1193729,00.html


The main hospital apparently has been destroyed by bombing and the second largest is covered by US snipers - the Iraqis call it sniper alley. So Iraqi people are not able to get to and from the hospitals. I was working from a private clinic that had been turned into a hospital, and there was also one other improvised hospital in a car garage.


There's no recapturing the hearts and minds in Iraq, the psyops war now is being fought in the US to foster the impression that everything's great in Iraq except for a few troublemakers.

Burn a couple of cities to the ground and I think you'd likely *improve* the repoire we have currently with the average Iraqi. At least it would be clear we're willing to do something to secure the country.

http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,9282015%255E1702,00.html

AN Iraqi has died of his wounds after US troops beat him with truncheons because he refused to remove a picture of wanted Shiite Muslim leader Moqtada Sadr from his car, police said today.


This is the type of news you see every day if you live in Iraq. Worse, Al Jazera, the Fox News of the Arab world adds it's own agenda to every story hperbolizing even more. All the average Iraqi knows of US soldiers is that they kill innocent Iraqi civillians and they're Christian.

It shouldn't be a mystery that Shiites and Sunis who've been hating each other for centuries can join forces to fight us.

Edited, Sun Apr 25 17:53:15 2004 by Smasharoo
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#11 Apr 25 2004 at 5:06 PM Rating: Good
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If you did read what i originally posted forget it :P

Edited, Sun Apr 25 18:35:19 2004 by bhodisattva
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#12 Apr 25 2004 at 8:16 PM Rating: Good
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I suspect that if that report is true, it is more a response to the cold blooded and calculated twisting of the rules of war by Arabs wherein they place combatants in or near schools and hospitals than any policy to prevent civilians from reaching medical care. If it is happening then undoubtedly they are uninjured militants would are dying of lead poisoning.

Totem
#13 Apr 25 2004 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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At the same time, if any noncombatants are dying to sniper fire, I am certain it is Islamic militants who are targetting them in an effort to destabilize Iraq and foment civil war. We have seen this so often now that it hardly seems noteworthy any longer when mortar rounds or RPGs kill civilians in the marketplace or schools.

So much for "Arab and Muslim brotherhood."

/rollseyes

Totem
#14 Apr 25 2004 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Quote:
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We need to set up a refugee camp, as much of a pain in the *** as that is, get the civillians out of Najaf as much as possible..

And level it.

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Reading comprehension is your friend



Whoa, I had to read it twice too ^^

Now I get it ><
#15 Apr 26 2004 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

At the same time, if any noncombatants are dying to sniper fire, I am certain it is Islamic militants who are targetting them in an effort to destabilize Iraq and foment civil war.

Mmm, I'd like to think that's the case, but my real experience is that once the shooting starts target aquisition becomes less than an exact science. I don't think any US troops are *intentionally* picking off civillians, but it's really pretty commonplace for them to err on the side of not getting shot. Rightly so, too, but that doesn't change the fact that it's quite likely we ARE sniping civilians that move from place to place, particluarly after we specify that no one should be moving there.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#16 Apr 26 2004 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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At the same time, if any noncombatants are dying to sniper fire, I am certain it is Islamic militants who are targetting them in an effort to destabilize Iraq and foment civil war.


can you think of one reason they would want to cause civil war?

Quote:
Level them both. Then level anywhere else sh*t like this pops up. Rinse and repeat until they get the picture.


wow good idea, there was a robbery a street down from me last week, why dont we nuke my whole town? thanks for that OutcastNecro, you would really make a great cop
#17 Apr 26 2004 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
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can you think of one reason they would want to cause civil war?
To seize power.
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#18 Apr 26 2004 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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wow good idea, there was a robbery a street down from me last week, why dont we nuke my whole town? thanks for that OutcastNecro, you would really make a great cop

This isn't like a robbery. It's like a bunch of religous nuts holed up in a compound with a lot of weapons. You can spend a great deal of time in a standoff that's going to end badly anyway or you can burn the place to the ground and wether a little PR fallout.

How many religous groups have turned away ATF inspectors in the last couple of years?

Just checkin'
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#19 Apr 26 2004 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
smash - youre saying because crime happens everyone around them should die if it solves the problem of a few rebels?
#20 Apr 26 2004 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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Let me do this again, for the slow ones....

Quote:
We need to set up a refugee camp, as much of a pain in the *** as that is, get the civillians out of Najaf as much as possible..


Reading comprehension is your friend.

Comparing this to a robbery is, well, stupid.
#21 Apr 26 2004 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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smash - youre saying because crime happens everyone around them should die if it solves the problem of a few rebels?

I'm talking about leveling the cities. If I tell you I'm going to destroy your city adn you don't leave after I tell you that, you are the rebels.

Anyone who runs is a Suni rebel. Anyone who stands still is a well disciplined Suni rebel.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#22 Apr 26 2004 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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smash - youre saying because crime happens everyone around them should die if it solves the problem of a few rebels?


Saddam found this method effective, maybe there was a reason.

#23 Apr 26 2004 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm talking about leveling the cities. If I tell you I'm going to destroy your city adn you don't leave after I tell you that, you are the rebels.


oh ok well ty for not killing me, assuming i can get out of the city, my home, the place i live and grew up and the culture that i spend my whole life in has been replaced with a smoldering heap of rubble and corpses, but ty fro not killing me
#24 Apr 26 2004 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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oh ok well ty for not killing me, assuming i can get out of the city, my home, the place i live and grew up and the culture that i spend my whole life in has been replaced with a smoldering heap of rubble and corpses, but ty fro not killing me

I'm giving you the option, actually. I'd be happy to kill you if you'd prefer.

Look you're going to get caught in a crossfire or suicide bomb attack and probably die anyway. Wouldn't it be better to make a fresh start in the refugee camp? Rebuild the city aftward, whatever. It's the symoblism of the kilotons of phosphurus landing on the city at night that's important.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#25 Apr 26 2004 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
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I'm pretty damn sure I could pick up and get out quite fast if someone said they are about to bomb my city. If I decided to stay, well, my bad.
#26 Apr 26 2004 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Dracoid,
You weren't serious when you asked why Islamic militants would dearly love to foment civil war in Iraq, were you? Because if you were-- and I know this is recycled smack, but it's so apropos to the situation --I want drilling rights to your head for when naivete reaches $35 a barrel. I'll be a rich man...

Totem
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