I'd like to introduce my new close personal freind Momar.Follow

Eh? Sure. And if the Japanese had not attacked at Pearl Harbor, we would likely never have declared war on them, which would not have triggered the Axis "mutual protection" agreement, resulting in Germany declaring war on us, thereby allowing us to send forces to fight in Europe (which is what FDR wanted).

I see the problem here. You just have a hard time following cause and effect. Let me give you an example:

You get drunk. You get behind the wheel of a car. You crash into a bunch of pedestrians and kill one. Most folks would say that you drinking was a significant cause of that death. In exactly the same way that Pearl Harbor caused us to go to war with Germany (regardless of who declared what on whom), and in exactly the way that us invading Iraq is causing nations like Libya to throw out concessions over issues of WMD and terrorists.


Sure. Maybe that pedestrian would have died anyway. We don't know. And maybe we would have eventually gone to war with Germany anyway. We don't know. And maybe Ol' Mo would have put his WMD and support of terrorist groups on the chopping block anyway. We don't know. But it would be incredibly ignorant to ignore the factors that most likely did bring about those results and just assume they had nothing to do with it.

Edited, Mon Apr 26 21:53:56 2004 by gbaji

Lol! Ok. Gulf of Tonkin it is then! So we send some destroyer or other across the "line of death"... Oh wait! I'm getting stuff confused. Um... we patrol some waters off N. Vietnam... Some fishing boats come out and maybe shoot a few .22 rifles at us, and viola! we're at war... :)

There was a point here somewhere. Yeah. Cause and effect.

I'd also like to point out that I've looked at a map many many times, and the Gulf of Tonkin really doesn't look like much of a "gulf" to me. More of a "cresent shaped coastline". Aren't there like some international standards as to what is officially called a "gulf"? I thought there should be some percentage of enclosure or something. Maybe a ratio of area within the gulf to opening to the rest of the ocean?

Dunno. That one's just always confused me. I mean the Gulf of Mexico looks like a gulf, right? And the Gulf of Baja looks like a gulf. Do they just pick them at random? Is there a size distinction involved? Why isn't Chesapeake bay also a gulf? Ditto for Hudson Bay...

Um.. And how does one qualify to be a fjord? Does it have to be in Norway? Or can I just put one anywhere (like Alaska say)?