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#52 Mar 08 2004 at 8:23 PM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
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Leiany wrote:
Next time you better think twice before you post such a wise-*** ******** **** of a thread if you can't live with opposition!


How was my opener to this thread wise-***? There was no argument on my behalf - just a call for opinion. You seemed to dislike my opinion more than anyone else's, so I responded. I feel desperately sorry for your kids if they are learning how to debate and reason from you.

Oy vey.

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#53 Mar 08 2004 at 8:24 PM Rating: Good
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Leiany, Leiany, Leiany...

It's "lose"...and "loser".

There ya go, Tiger.
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#54 Mar 08 2004 at 8:26 PM Rating: Default
Tare wrote:
Oh, this will happen, huh? No reason to think it will go any other way, folks. Leiany, knower-of-all-things, has filled in the blanks for us. Explain more of this magical psychology, Leiany!! If this pattern will happen to all kids who get spanked, where are all the serial killers? We should all be serial killers, shouldn't we?
Most of the times the pattern is broken by someone who wants to do more than just treat his children the same way he has been treated himself - in your case the chance is missed for this generation....
#55 Mar 08 2004 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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Actually Tare I think he was calling you looser. Maybe trying to equate the lack of morality in your "bad" parenting to his/her imagined morals of yours?

;)


By the way, my mom was beaten while growing up. Not beaten enough to be unconcious, or anything serious as that. But it was definitely too much. My mom never beat me or my sister, ever. She would give us a spanking when we deserved it, and make no mistake, we did definitely deserve it. So the whole, abused will turn abuser, while maybe true in some cases, isn't true with my case.

Edited, Mon Mar 8 21:09:43 2004 by Lowwatt
#56 Mar 08 2004 at 9:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Tare, you're trying to argue child-rearing techniques with someone who uses dialog from Superman to get their point across in a serious debate.

Leiany, if you really haven't the ability to tell the difference between a smack on the toosh and a punch in the face then please seek help.

Yes being spanked hurts your little tooshy wooshy for all of ten minutes... being spanked as a child hurt my feelings far more than my *** and my parents used a belt.

It isn't intended as retribution or "getting back at" it's to get the child's attention and help them understand that our actions have repercussions. You're insinuating that Tare never gives positive reactions to positive behavior and somehow you've managed to assign the definition "Beat the **** out of" to the word "Spank"

"How very American of you?" Let me get this straight, YOU use fictional television shows as material for your debates and expect someone to bow down to your superior intellect by using the word "American" as an insult?

How very "Not a member of the real world" of you. <<<Oh btw I mean the actual Real World...not the TV show...look it up sometime>>>
#57 Mar 08 2004 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
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Lowwatt wrote:
Actually Tare I think he was calling you looser. Maybe trying to equate the lack of morality in your "bad" parenting to his/her imagined morals of yours?]


Uhhh..how...err..witty?


Quote:
So the whole, abused will turn abuser, while maybe true in some cases, isn't true with my case.


Whatever do you mean, Lowwatt? How can this be possible? Leiany has told us that all abused will turn abuser. You mean to tell me that you are not a serial killer yet?

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What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#58 Mar 09 2004 at 1:25 AM Rating: Default
Hey fu'cktard! Looser= lessening, letting something become more loose. Used in a sentence (CORRECTLY BTW, if slang can be correct) My shoe laces need to be looser.

Now, LOSER, means sucky one, ******, one who does not win. Me, being the HOT blooded American I am, can atleast keep those two straight.


Leinay, go back to your little tunnel in the sand and eat ****. Good for you if you have never had to spank your children. But, scince we are in AMERICA, we have long traditions of "spanking" our children. We are more lenient today than our for fathers were. There is documented cases where parents of old, spanked their children with willow switches, belts, leather straps, hangers, brushes, shoes, paddles, sticks, and all other misc. items. Spanking/slapping a childs bottem is a very effective and quick way to get your small child to listen to you, that only works until they are about 8 or 10. Then I recommend makeing them kneel bare knee'd on rice for any where from 5 to 30 minutes. What ever they did, they will think seriously about never ever doing it again after their kneeling session. That can work until the teen years. When they get about 15 threaten not to pay for drivers ed, and toss in painting the porch, or planting bushes, tending the garden, and other such undesirable hot sweaty nasty jobs. Sixteen?? Take away the keys and phone and ground them to more yard work and no friends. That usually will work until 18. BTW, did I mention your a fu'cktard? If you have any trouble COMPREHENDING this one, forget it and go back to screwin the monkee.

Edited, Tue Mar 9 01:26:58 2004 by Cherrabwyn
#59 Mar 09 2004 at 1:46 AM Rating: Good
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plick wrote:
Tare, you're trying to argue child-rearing techniques with someone who uses dialog from Superman to get their point across in a serious debate.


True, Plick. Smiley: laugh
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What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#60 Mar 09 2004 at 3:33 AM Rating: Default
Babble away as long as you like - if people have to use whatever physical means in educating their children, tjey failed as being parents.

As long as there are men and women who can educate their sons and daughters without touching them in another then loving and protective way....you guys and gals are just a bunch of losers who better not breed.
#61 Mar 09 2004 at 3:40 AM Rating: Default
The Glorious Cherrabwyn wrote:
But, scince we are in AMERICA, we have long traditions of "spanking" our children.
Maybe thats why there are so many **** sites out there which specialize in spanking - especially "fathers" their "daugters"....

...but I have to admit being your children sure must beat *lol* being your dog or cat which are usually worse at communication and insightfullness then even a 3-year old.... ;-)
#62 Mar 09 2004 at 4:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Leiany believes in absolutes, which makes her a moron. I have known this since maybe her second post. She is harmless though. Laugh at her. I do.

I was spanked, never beaten. It got to the stage where I realised that spanks don't actually hurt, and I started laughing when I got spanked. So then my Mom switched to more psychological methods. Denial of things I was looking forward to: Being naughty? Then you are not allowed to go to your friends party next week. These punishments were the worst, literally days of anguish sometimes, really properly upsetting. I wanted spankings back.

For me, I intend to spank, but I am going to try and restrict it specifically to occasions were the consequence of the child's action is dangerous to themselves or others. For example playing with fire/hot things/electrics, teasing the dog, hurting other children. That sort of thing. Where it is a more of an anti-social behavioural thing, screaming, shouting etc, I will go for more of a reasoning / lock them on their own for a short period of time punishment.

From as early as possible, I am going to try and get my kids to conceptualise how their behaviour makes other people think, in an attempt to develop early empathy, which is the most effective way of instilling good behaviour in anyone (Taco take note).

I'm going to try and avoid grounding type punishments. They are evil. Having said that, telling your friends that you are grounded is kinda cool.
#63 Mar 09 2004 at 5:44 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
Behaviour patterns are given from one generation to the next. Children who got "slapped" will slap their children, children who got beaten will beat their children, children who are abused will most likely abuse others when they have grown up.


When you argue/debate, you should try and use facts and not fiction to get your point across.
I was beaten severly as a child. I have never raised my hands to my children, and never will. Am I an exception to your "statement"? I don't think so. I've known many people in my life who had it rough like me, and all of them have turned out to be great people dispite their upbringing.
I am all for the non-spanking of a child, but if I was to debate against someone who does approve of it, I would be a bit more smart about what I said.
Get your facts straight.
#64 Mar 09 2004 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
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Patrician wrote:
Leiany believes in absolutes, which makes her a moron. I have known this since maybe her second post. She is harmless though. Laugh at her. I do.


He/She's an absolute moron. Laugh at her? I do too, Pat.
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#65 Mar 09 2004 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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"Hey fu'cktard! Looser= lessening, letting something become more loose. Used in a sentence (CORRECTLY BTW, if slang can be correct)" --our own dear virginal Katie

Gosh, if that line isn't ripe for misuse and out-of-context quotes, I don't know what is. You people are slipping.

Totem
#66 Mar 09 2004 at 4:54 PM Rating: Decent
The emotional harm can far outweigh the physical. Of the two, the former is virtually always more difficult to overcome for myself and those close enough to me for me to make a call.

As for the people who raised children without any form of physical restraint, you are like saints; nobel paragons of a virtue - useful as a plutonic form, and about as attainable. And you never raised a seriously ADHD child.

But again, raising children is an amazingly complex and difficult job. I would never criticise how others do it until and unless I have done it, which I have not, or if their behavior is pretty extreme. I can't believe anyone can do it and not regret a few moments of what they did over the, roughly, 20 years it takes.
#67 Mar 10 2004 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
Thank you for not critizing me because I dont use any physical means in educating my children - really thank you!
#68 Mar 10 2004 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Thank you for not critizing me because I dont use any physical means in educating my children - really thank you!


You aren't being criticised for how you bring up your children, you are being criticised for being a moron who can't argue sensibly, combined with a complete inability to understand other people's points of view and acknowledge that your way is not necessarliy the only way.

In short, you are getting criticism for being stupid. Just sayin'
#69 Mar 10 2004 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
Here is what the American Academy of Pediatrics has to say:



I was on the spanking side (and hey, surprise suprise *I* was spanked as a child!) until this exact same topic came up 6 months ago and Smash pretty much destroyed all arguments for spanking.

If you are an educated adult and the only way you can win a fight is by hitting a kid (and don't substitue euphenisms there--hit=spank=hurt=pain. That's why you do it.), well, that's kind of sad.

----DK
#70 Mar 10 2004 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
While spanking may relieve a parent's frustration and stop misbehavior briefly, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics (1995), researchers suggest that spanking may be the least effective discipline method. To test this hypothesis, researchers surveyed parents, with the assumption that if spanking worked, children who were spanked would learn to behave better over time so that they would need punishing less frequently (Leach, 1996). However, the results showed that families who start spanking before their children are a year old are just as likely to spank their 4-year-old children as often as families who do not start spanking until later. Thus, children appear not to be learning the lessons parents are trying to teach by spanking.


Quote:
Spanking may be ineffective because it does not teach an alternative behavior (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995). In fact, children usually feel resentful, humiliated, and helpless after being spanked (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). The primary lesson they learn appears to be that they should try harder not to get caught.


Quote:
Spanking also sends the wrong message to children (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). Spanking communicates that hitting is an acceptable way to solve problems, and that it is all right for a big person to strike a smaller one. In addition, when children are spanked, they may know that they have done something wrong, but in many cases, they are too young to understand the lesson. It is a very difficult message for any adult or child to understand: "I hurt you because I don't want you hurt."


What are some other methods?

Quote:
Infants respond impulsively to many situations without a real understanding of their surroundings and abilities. Spanking will only cause fear and anxiety in children who do not yet understand such concepts as consequences and danger.
1. When there is danger, grasp an infant's hand instead of slapping (Leach, 1996).

2. When the infant is holding something that you do not want him to have, trade a toy instead of forcing the item from him (Leach, 1996). He will only hold on tighter if you try to take something away.

3. Baby-proof your living space so that there is nothing dangerous or breakable in reach (Ruben, 1996; Samalin & Whitney, 1995).

4. Leave the room if you feel your temper flaring, making sure that the baby is in a safe place like a playpen (Leach, 1996).



For Toddlers--
Quote:
Disciplining toddlers requires a tremendous investment of time, energy, and patience, so it is important to find effective and appropriate techniques (Ruben, 1996). For example, it will not be effective to tell toddlers not to play with items that are dangerous, such as the stove, because they do not understand the consequences (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). Spanking, however, will not clarify the consequences either. Instead, children may learn from spanking that "I'm a bad person," rather than "I did a bad thing." You must use discipline methods consistently or your child will learn that you are not serious.
1. Make sure the environment is safe by removing any harmful dangerous objects (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). It is natural for toddlers to want to explore their environment. Always supervise toddlers; it is unrealistic to expect a toddler to play safely without adult supervision for more than a few minutes (Leach, 1996).

2. Avoid direct clashes with toddlers, which will only make both of you angry and frustrated. Instead, try a diversion or distraction (Leach, 1996). Many problem situations can be eased with something funny or unexpected, such as tickling a mildly upset child (Ruben, 1996).

3. Use your size and strength to eliminate situations (Leach, 1996). Simply lift a child out of the bath or carry a child who refuses to walk.

4. If you start to deliver a slap, divert it to your knee or a table (Leach, 1996). This sound will interrupt the behavior without hitting the child


In the end, research suggests that spanking is the least effective method of discipline, does not teach kids the correct behaviour but merely pushes them to hide it, is ineffective in young kids because they do not understand consequences the way an older child might, and generally is performed because more effective methods require more effort on your part rather than bullying and hurting the kid.

But, it's America--do what you want.

--DK
#71 Mar 10 2004 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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There seems to be some confusion here, the people who advocate spanking are for getting the child's attention (while in hysterics, throwing a fit, etc) not as punishment itself. I do not believe in the idea of giving a child whatever they want to shut them up, that causes the child to become spoiled and/or overly dependent on the parent for simple things.

But when it comes down to it, Jack Nicklaus approves of spanking children (to get their attention, not hurt them) so that's good enough for me!
#72 Mar 11 2004 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Sorry but the methods listed in DKs post don't seem to make any attempt to instill dicipline and basicly the parent is being encouraged to give in to the child.

This is wrong a child has no behaviour limits unless you set them. Saying 'No' is not always enough, giving a child a treat for misbehaviour is just plain wrong and point 3

Quote:
3. Baby-proof your living space so that there is nothing dangerous or breakable in reach (Ruben, 1996; Samalin & Whitney, 1995).


sorry but the world is not baby proof all sheltering your child in this way will do is remove a child ability to learn how to avoid danger. I don't advocate deliberately placing your child in danger BUT wraping them in cotton wool will only delay harsh lessons that are best learnt earlier rather than later.

Example:- if you have a fireplace in you house do you:-

a. Teach your child that fire will burn and that they should avoid it

b. never have the fire on and let you child grow up unaware that fire burns and then expect them to have the correct respect for it when they leave the home on thier own.

My sister introduces the consept of fire to her kids as soon as they could crawl by slowly putting thier hands near the flame and explaining that fire = Bad. They could feel the flame and it was uncomfortable and as a result made sure they never went near the fireplace again.

it is a similar process with smacking all you are doing is insilling the proper respect for certain actions i.e bite your sister and you will be smacked so don't do it.

Smacking is one tool of many that a parent can use and deciding which is appropriate is why parenting is so hard.
#73 Mar 11 2004 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
Trying to attempt to teach consequences at an age at which they don't understand consequences is, while admirable, futile. Hence the research that showed that babies who were spanked for misbehaviors at age one had no decrease in said behaviors at age of four compared to those who were not. Hence the quote at the beginning of the ideas for working with infants:
Quote:
Infants respond impulsively to many situations without a real understanding of their surroundings and abilities. Spanking will only cause fear and anxiety in children who do not yet understand such concepts as consequences and danger.


Toddlers may have some idea of consequences and may be less impulsive--teaching them about hot fire in such a method is a *great* idea, much better than hitting them when they do it. Babyproofing is *extremely* important, for exactly the same reasons. Infants *don't* understand consequences and are apt to act impulsively. Notice this was in the 'infant' category, not the toddler.

As the research has shown, "smacking", while it is certainly an option, is inneffective (as it does not teach alternative behaviours and has been shown to not decrease said behaviours) and teaches the wrong lesson (Let's hit people when they make mistakes!). Yes, parenting is hard. That is why so many parents decide to not do it and just resort to hitting their child.

----DK
#74 Mar 11 2004 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Yes, parenting is hard. That is why so many parents decide to not do it and just resort to hitting their child.
I know you're recently converted to a new philosophy and, like ex-smokers and Born Again Christians, now feel the obligation to make value judgements on everyone else's life, but your own definitions of what is "parenting" aren't shared by everyone.

Quote:
(Let's hit people when they make mistakes!)
There is a difference between a mistake and deliberate disobediance. While I wouldn't condone physical punishment in the former, I'd at least be willing to hear the parent's explanation in the latter.

Anywho, I was spanked as a youth. As an older youth, my mother actually used a riding crop on my sister and I. I spanked my child on semi-rare occassions as a toddler but now it's probably more effective to say I'll take away (whatever) for however long. *Shrug* Say I wasn't "parenting" or whatever at the time if it makes you feel better; I've gotten many more compliments on how my kid behaves and is mannered than I'll get wilting comments from you.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#75 Mar 11 2004 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
Never said they were--that's obvious from this discussion.

Spank if you want, like I said, it's America. But, spank knowing that research has shown that it is the *least* effective method of discipline. Spank knowing that alternatives exist to resorting to physical violence. And spank knowing that the Academy of Pediatrics (I'm no expert, but I'd wager they know something) is against it.

It doesn't really matter, of course. Light spanking is gonna hurt the kid in any important manner. But, you should see what I say about baby shakers! :)

--DK
#76 Mar 11 2004 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
Liberal Conspiracy
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TILT
Quote:
according to the American Academy of Pediatrics (1995), researchers suggest that spanking may be the least effective discipline method.
(Bolding mine)

You're missing a few qualifiers when you say "spank knowing that research has shown that it is the *least* effective method of discipline".
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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