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#752 Apr 05 2011 at 6:09 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Still no reasons on the whole country-name thing, huh?

It's incredibly simple: If you think there's legitimate reasons why a nation using the name of a multi-nation region is okay or even a continent with several nations is okay, but it's not okay at a certain point, explain exactly why that is.

If you can't explain it, the logical conclusion is that there is no reason (even in your own mind) and you're only making the distinction to serve your own argument and nothing more.

Edited, Apr 5th 2011 11:39am by Jophiel


Still going to ignore defining your "arbitrary" counter?

It's incredible simple: You made an argument on numbers being arbitrary yet you contradicted that same thought process on the drinking age analogy. Either you think the numbers are arbitrary with no reason, with reason or some combination. You can't just keep changing your stance depending on the debate.

If you can't explain it, the logical conclusion is that this is not a debate on being arbitrary, but the actual number in discussion and you're only making the distinction to serve your own argument and nothing more.

Arip wrote:
Yes I'm aware I'm just repeating myself. Yes, I just ignored your big long reply to me by cutting it all out.

Yes, I disagree with Joph in that I think it is correct to say "they were speaking American", "they were speaking Quebecois" and "they were speaking Pidgeon".


If you disagree with him, then why are you quoting me? Why not quote him and the others (i.e. Belkira) who contradict your claim?

Belkira wrote:


Show me what you're talking about, please.


1. Education laws.
2. Minor-labor laws.
3. Minimum wage laws.
4. Drinking laws
5. Marriage laws
6. Child support/ Alimony laws
7. Just about every freakin other law out there.

I know you're probably thinking " How does Education or minor laws have anything to do with beliefs". These laws are based on what we believe are right and just. These laws are not the same across the world, they are merely OUR beliefs. "We" think it's morally wrong to force a child to work on a farm instead of going to school.

Belkira wrote:
Yeah, you still haven't proven that we're changing these big important laws because one guy got offended. Try harder.




I'm not necessarily talking about a single guy, but people involved in law making not representing the country as a whole. What does the country think about abortion and SSM? How involved are the citizens when making these decisions? You have incidents like a homosexual homicide or 911 and society changes.

Belkira wrote:
That damn freedom of speech. Gets you every time, doesn't it? Smiley: frown


/smh

You just don't get it. The laws are one thing, social acceptance is another. If you can't grasp the difference and how they play a part in defining your nation, then that's a failure on your part.

Belkira wrote:
No, I don't see where you're going with this. Other than to say that, as a society, we have differing opinions on subjects, and the loudest voice gets heard. And...? What does that mean, exactly? What's your point?


Read above, it's not the loudest voice, but the certain voices. Once the media is involved, all is done. Media controls our politics and if the media focuses on certain issues or certain things, that will play a change in our nation.
#753 Apr 05 2011 at 6:37 PM Rating: Good
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#754 Apr 05 2011 at 7:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Holy ****.

You know what?


what gbaji said

Now off to shower.
#755 Apr 05 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Still going to ignore defining your "arbitrary" counter?


Nice try? Be less words to just type "You were right, Joph."
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#756 Apr 05 2011 at 11:07 PM Rating: Default
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Sir X wrote:
No one chose American or Canadian, they are natural extensions based on the name of the country.


This is what I'm disagreeing with. "America" is as natural as "Republic", "Democratic", "Socialists", "People", etc. No other country to my knowledge calls themselves by those terms, but instead the other parts of their name that is more unique to their country, i.e. "Korea", "Congo","Virgin Islands", etc.


How often do you hear people refer to "Virgin Islands of the United States" simply as "The United States" or the "U.S".


You can deny it all you want, but "American" was chosen. The U.S. had previous names for their citizens prior to the "U.S.A". Once again, the preposition "of" denotes that the "United States" is part of America. Just like the U.S. Virgin Islands is part of the United States. If the preposition "of" weren't there, then you would have a point, but it is, so you don't. Grammatically speaking, also while taking note of other countries, it isn't a natural extension.

That's like arguing to say it's natural to call "D'von Smith" simply "Smith" as opposed to "D'von" in a group of "Smiths". That's not natural at all. That's the exact reason why the military use surnames instead of first names.
#757 Apr 05 2011 at 11:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Still going to ignore defining your "arbitrary" counter?


Nice try? Be less words to just type "You were right, Joph."


Since when does contradicting yourself make you "right".... Oh.. I get it, you and Gbaji are friends now.... sharing tactics now aren't we?
#758 Apr 05 2011 at 11:33 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Since when does contradicting yourself make you "right"

Still nothing, huh? Well, keep dodging and avoiding the obvious :)
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#759 Apr 06 2011 at 12:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Since when does contradicting yourself make you "right"

Still nothing, huh? Well, keep dodging and avoiding the obvious :)


I can do this all day... the onus is on you to support your "arbitrary is arbitrary" statement since I challenged it first. I'm not going down some mystery trail of fairy tales because you can't man up to say that your statement is wrong..

If you can support your statement, then I'll have no choice but to respond.
#760 Apr 06 2011 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
the onus is on you

Nope, sorry. Got that one wrong. But keep dodging and avoiding the question! Chanting "NO U" over and over is almost like having a real argument you can defend!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#761 Apr 06 2011 at 8:36 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
the onus is on you

Nope, sorry. Got that one wrong. But keep dodging and avoiding the question! Chanting "NO U" over and over is almost like having a real argument you can defend!


Still nothing?!!! Oh, I guess you think if you keep throwing the ball in my court that I will just some how forget about your contradiction. I guess that's almost like having a real strategy! "Contradiction no jutsu!!"
#762 Apr 06 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:


Show me what you're talking about, please.


1. Education laws.
2. Minor-labor laws.
3. Minimum wage laws.
4. Drinking laws
5. Marriage laws
6. Child support/ Alimony laws
7. Just about every freakin other law out there.

I know you're probably thinking " How does Education or minor laws have anything to do with beliefs". These laws are based on what we believe are right and just. These laws are not the same across the world, they are merely OUR beliefs. "We" think it's morally wrong to force a child to work on a farm instead of going to school.

Belkira wrote:
Yeah, you still haven't proven that we're changing these big important laws because one guy got offended. Try harder.




I'm not necessarily talking about a single guy, but people involved in law making not representing the country as a whole. What does the country think about abortion and SSM? How involved are the citizens when making these decisions? You have incidents like a homosexual homicide or 911 and society changes.

Belkira wrote:
That damn freedom of speech. Gets you every time, doesn't it? Smiley: frown


/smh

You just don't get it. The laws are one thing, social acceptance is another. If you can't grasp the difference and how they play a part in defining your nation, then that's a failure on your part.

Belkira wrote:
No, I don't see where you're going with this. Other than to say that, as a society, we have differing opinions on subjects, and the loudest voice gets heard. And...? What does that mean, exactly? What's your point?


Read above, it's not the loudest voice, but the certain voices. Once the media is involved, all is done. Media controls our politics and if the media focuses on certain issues or certain things, that will play a change in our nation.


Honestly, what I'm getting from this is that you're sad that the media and society as a whole isn't agreeing with you and patting you on the head for having whatever fucked up ideas and morals you have with regards to abortion and homosexuality. Because this makes you sad, you are contending that we don't have an "identity," but really, you're just pissed that we don't have the same identity that you have.

Interesting.

As an aside, why does it matter if we have an identity or not?

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 10:00am by Belkira
#763 Apr 06 2011 at 8:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, the whole "throw back" thing doesn't work when Gbaji does it either.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#764 Apr 06 2011 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, the whole "throw back" thing doesn't work when Gbaji does it either.


Won't stop him from doing it. Alma will drag his arguments to the ends of the earth to keep them away from a sound counter.

Edited, Apr 6th 2011 11:07am by Eske
#765 Apr 06 2011 at 4:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
You can deny it all you want, but "American" was chosen. The U.S. had previous names for their citizens prior to the "U.S.A".
And what would those be?

Quote:
Once again, the preposition "of" denotes that the "United States" is part of America. Just like the U.S. Virgin Islands is part of the United States. If the preposition "of" weren't there, then you would have a point, but it is, so you don't. Grammatically speaking, also while taking note of other countries, it isn't a natural extension.
They didn't really have much to work with. The grammar doesn't really matter. You're correct in what 'of' refers to, but it's still part of the name, and citizen names come out of the name of the country.

Quote:
That's like arguing to say it's natural to call "D'von Smith" simply "Smith" as opposed to "D'von" in a group of "Smiths". That's not natural at all. That's the exact reason why the military use surnames instead of first names.
Not normal, but can still happen. Typically if this happened in a social setting, the rest of the smiths would go by some other name to avoid confusion, just like American! It happens the other way with first names all the time, mostly because calling people by their first name is generally more common.
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#766 Apr 06 2011 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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Sir Xsarus wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
You can deny it all you want, but "American" was chosen. The U.S. had previous names for their citizens prior to the "U.S.A".
And what would those be?
British Loyalists.
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#767 Apr 06 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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Is this STILL a retarded etymology discussion?
#768 Apr 06 2011 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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Saying "I speak American" sounds just about as dumb as saying "I speak Mexican."
#769 Apr 06 2011 at 7:29 PM Rating: Default
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Belkira wrote:
Honestly, what I'm getting from this is that you're sad that the media and society as a whole isn't agreeing with you and patting you on the head for having whatever ****** up ideas and morals you have with regards to abortion and homosexuality. Because this makes you sad, you are contending that we don't have an "identity," but really, you're just pissed that we don't have the same identity that you have.

Interesting.


Interesting indeed that you are able to twist an entire block of text. If you didn't realize, we have TWO main political parties that have (or at least pretend to have) very different ideas and beliefs. This isn't about me, as I'm an independent. You asked for examples, I gave you examples. If you don't like them, then fine, but don't try to twist this around as a personal grudge.

The reality is, the nation is "divided" on many issues, but certain people make the decisions for the people without much of the people's intervention. Much of that is played from the media as we try to become so "politically correct" in not offending people and creating this illusion of togetherness. In order to make news, the media will blow things out of proportion while forcing a change of acceptance to feed into this illusion.

Belkira wrote:
As an aside, why does it matter if we have an identity or not?


Trying to please everyone in a diverse group is literally an impossible task. You end up wasting a lot of resources on scenarios that shouldn't receive that much attention if any. Some things should be carefully examined, while others should not.

This all goes back to "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". We teach that concept going to other nations, but we void it when people come to the U.S.

Jophiel wrote:
Yeah, the whole "throw back" thing doesn't work when Gbaji does it either.


Nice try, but you were the one who said "Arbitrary is Arbitrary" then immediately contradicted yourself. It doesn't make any sense for me to address a stance with hypothetical boundaries as if we are discussing reality. You either believe your statement "Arbitrary is Arbitrary" (where the drinking age of 5 is equally as arbitrary as the drinking age of 21) or you believe that arbitrary is not always arbitrary (there is some reason involved that makes a distinction between two arbitrary numbers).

It's one or the other. You can't pick and choose varying on the debate. You presented your statement under one pretense pretending to believe scenario A, but in reality believe (as what we actually practice) scenario B.

Sir X wrote:
And what would those be?


I'm not a history buff, so feel free to make any corrections.

Patriots, Whigs, Rebels, Revolutionaries, Colonists, Loyalists, Tories,etc

Sir X wrote:
They didn't really have much to work with.


If the U.S. were one of the FIRST nations, then I could buy that argument. At the time of the creation of the U.S., naming conventions were already standardized. France was French, Britain was British, China was Chinese, Japan was Japanese, etc.

So, to think that not a single person thought about the naming convention of their citizens when creating a name for their new nation, given their current many names, would be silly.

Sir X wrote:
The grammar doesn't really matter. You're correct in what 'of' refers to, but it's still part of the name, and citizen names come out of the name of the country.


Read above, there are numerous of other countries that are named in the same way, but aren't abbreviated as such. This was a choice.

Sir X wrote:
Not normal, but can still happen. Typically if this happened in a social setting, the rest of the smiths would go by some other name to avoid confusion, just like American! It happens the other way with first names all the time, mostly because calling people by their first name is generally more common.


I never seen that happen. Usually the newest addition to the names gets the altered name. The original people keep their original names. For example, if there's already a Jonathon and another Jonathon comes around, then the second one is abbreviated to "Jon". If a third Jonathon comes around, then his name will be abbreviated to "J" or his middle name or last name of a combination such as "J.T".

In any of those cases, I've never seen the newest person causing everyone prior to change their names or to go by something different.

Furthermore, none of that matters as my point is on the fact that the U.S. would want to be simply called Americans as opposed to something more unique. We already agreed that it is a "legitimate" term.
#770 Apr 06 2011 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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Sweetums wrote:
Saying "I speak American" sounds just about as dumb as saying "I speak Mexican."


But not quite as stupid as "United Statesian".

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#771 Apr 06 2011 at 9:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
Is this STILL a retarded etymology discussion?


Yes, unless you can get Gbaji to explain how White people not wanting to live with Black people, according to his source, is evidence of black people self-segregating themselves and causing self-harm (even though according to his source, Black people want to live in integrated communities).
#772 Apr 06 2011 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Almalieque wrote:
Nice try

Thanks! I think that proving your complete lack of an argument DOES count as a good try :)
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#773 Apr 06 2011 at 9:31 PM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:
As an aside, why does it matter if we have an identity or not?


Trying to please everyone in a diverse group is literally an impossible task. You end up wasting a lot of resources on scenarios that shouldn't receive that much attention if any. Some things should be carefully examined, while others should not.

This all goes back to "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". We teach that concept going to other nations, but we void it when people come to the U.S.


That's really sort of a non-answer there, isn't it?

Don't worry, that was a rhetorical question.
#774 Apr 07 2011 at 5:14 AM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Nice try

Thanks! I think that proving your complete lack of an argument DOES count as a good try :)


I admit, you did have a good tactic of arguing both sides, that way, you're guaranteed to at least prove yourself wrong.. Bravo chap, Bravo..


Belkira wrote:
That's really sort of a non-answer there, isn't it?

Don't worry, that was a rhetorical question.


Now why would there be a rhetorical question about the need of a national identity in a discussion about having a national identity? Isn't it safe to say that the people who are making the complaints of the U.S not having a national identity believes that there is some sort of benefit of having one?
#775 Apr 07 2011 at 8:13 AM Rating: Good
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:
That's really sort of a non-answer there, isn't it?

Don't worry, that was a rhetorical question.


Now why would there be a rhetorical question about the need of a national identity in a discussion about having a national identity? Isn't it safe to say that the people who are making the complaints of the U.S not having a national identity believes that there is some sort of benefit of having one?


The "that's really sort of a non-answer there, isn't it?" part was the rhetorical question. But thanks for proving, again, that your reading comprehension is lacking.
#776 Apr 07 2011 at 9:12 AM Rating: Default
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
Belkira wrote:
That's really sort of a non-answer there, isn't it?

Don't worry, that was a rhetorical question.


Now why would there be a rhetorical question about the need of a national identity in a discussion about having a national identity? Isn't it safe to say that the people who are making the complaints of the U.S not having a national identity believes that there is some sort of benefit of having one?


The "that's really sort of a non-answer there, isn't it?" part was the rhetorical question. But thanks for proving, again, that your reading comprehension is lacking.


I was wrong, I see what you meant. Don't worry, I'm not going to pull a Jophiel and pretend that it was actually you that were wrong because I'm not man enough for an admittance. It's part of growth and development.
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