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Dude, what public school did YOU go to where they served pork chops? I was happy enough to get the cardboard pizza once a week.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
your displaying exactly what I was talking about earlier smash. the bible is more than just a document. the ones that truly understand it have studied it for years and years and years. simply reading it is not enough. you read it as a technical document or any other book and your going to get the meaning you talk about. I know..when i chose not to believe it didnt make much sense to me either.
its quite the opposite when you believe and start to explore the bible with God guiding you. you see references you took as literal starting to cross each other and mean much more beautiful things than you could ever have imagined. especially when it comes to revelation and its associated books. keep in mind these people writing these books lived a long time ago. the way they explained things may not make sense to us because (like in many prophets that saw visions of the future) they didnt have a clue what they were seeing...it was in the future. so they used what words and definitions they knew at the time to try and describe them.
there is much more to that book than meets the eye. its none of our faults people read it beginning to end and try to interpret it as they read it. try picking up a guide to reading the bible. it doesn't have you start at the beginning and go to the end. it has you move around it almost randomly it seems..until you start x-referencing verses and start seeing the meaning of these words. if you don't do that, all your going to see are books and letters written by random people and meaning hardly anything.
its not a coincidence these random letters were gathered over many generations by random people, each being lost for decades at a time, then turning up and all somehow relating to each other. and its not until you believe that a higher power built this through his divine plan he's had for this world and everyone in it since the dawn of time, that you'll even BEGIN to understand the depth and vast amount of wisdom that is buried in those pages.
but if your happy with "its a book and it sucks", then there's nothing I nor anyone else is really gonna say to change that. but like any other book, movie, article or whatever...just because you don't like it doesn't necessarily mean it sucks. I kinda cringe saying that because i don't mean to say that the bible is like any other book.
personally, its up to God how things turn out..i've got no control over that and neither does anyone else. he already knows each move from beginning to end. his plan has to go completed before us believers can live in a world without sin. i trust in that plan if not for that reason alone (although I believe for many more reasons). you that don't...more power to ya. you can have this world and everything in it. as soon as satans done with it i'm not so sure your gonna be very happy with it tho. but like i said...i promise i won't tell anyone i told you so.
but thats just me..what do i know?
its quite the opposite when you believe and start to explore the bible with God guiding you. you see references you took as literal starting to cross each other and mean much more beautiful things than you could ever have imagined. especially when it comes to revelation and its associated books. keep in mind these people writing these books lived a long time ago. the way they explained things may not make sense to us because (like in many prophets that saw visions of the future) they didnt have a clue what they were seeing...it was in the future. so they used what words and definitions they knew at the time to try and describe them.
there is much more to that book than meets the eye. its none of our faults people read it beginning to end and try to interpret it as they read it. try picking up a guide to reading the bible. it doesn't have you start at the beginning and go to the end. it has you move around it almost randomly it seems..until you start x-referencing verses and start seeing the meaning of these words. if you don't do that, all your going to see are books and letters written by random people and meaning hardly anything.
its not a coincidence these random letters were gathered over many generations by random people, each being lost for decades at a time, then turning up and all somehow relating to each other. and its not until you believe that a higher power built this through his divine plan he's had for this world and everyone in it since the dawn of time, that you'll even BEGIN to understand the depth and vast amount of wisdom that is buried in those pages.
but if your happy with "its a book and it sucks", then there's nothing I nor anyone else is really gonna say to change that. but like any other book, movie, article or whatever...just because you don't like it doesn't necessarily mean it sucks. I kinda cringe saying that because i don't mean to say that the bible is like any other book.
personally, its up to God how things turn out..i've got no control over that and neither does anyone else. he already knows each move from beginning to end. his plan has to go completed before us believers can live in a world without sin. i trust in that plan if not for that reason alone (although I believe for many more reasons). you that don't...more power to ya. you can have this world and everything in it. as soon as satans done with it i'm not so sure your gonna be very happy with it tho. but like i said...i promise i won't tell anyone i told you so.
but thats just me..what do i know?
Quote:
but thats just me..what do i know?
Well, I KNOW that you didn't answer any of my simple questions. Let me try again:
1. Do you believe that the Bible should be taken literaly?
2. Do you believe that you can randomly choose parts of the Bible to take literally and parts to ignore?
Disclaimer:
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.
Quote:
your displaying exactly what I was talking about earlier smash
I am what you might describe as a "Back-slidden Christian" Empyre. Actually, I feel a hell of a lot more enlightened than I did when I retrospectively look back at the years of my life where I spouted almost identical rubbish as your last 2 posts.
You are displaying typical brainwashing.
Quote:
long story short, one time I was locked out of my room (i lived in a house with 2 other roommates) during an attack..with no way to get ahold of anyone that could help. i tore the house apart looking for a screwdriver or coat hanger to assist my getting in, and even tried bashing the door in..finally i curled into a ball and waited to die.
while doing so i finally prayed. i asked God to help me. I told him I believed in him...that i did not need any proof anymore (something I had been asking for for years). and i genuinely believed in my heart...but that now I needed his help. and that if he could help me find the tools i needed to get into the room I would never doubt again.
as hard as it may seem to believe (and i'm sure someone can come up with a "proveable explanation"), i walked down into the garage (where i had previously rampaged through looking for any tools and found none), moved the first box I saw at the door and there sat a screwdriver...not far away was a clotheshanger. I went upstairs and in 10 minutes was in my room by removing the door frame with the screwdriver and feeding a bent coathanger in to physically open the lock (couldnt do it again if you asked me).
while doing so i finally prayed. i asked God to help me. I told him I believed in him...that i did not need any proof anymore (something I had been asking for for years). and i genuinely believed in my heart...but that now I needed his help. and that if he could help me find the tools i needed to get into the room I would never doubt again.
as hard as it may seem to believe (and i'm sure someone can come up with a "proveable explanation"), i walked down into the garage (where i had previously rampaged through looking for any tools and found none), moved the first box I saw at the door and there sat a screwdriver...not far away was a clotheshanger. I went upstairs and in 10 minutes was in my room by removing the door frame with the screwdriver and feeding a bent coathanger in to physically open the lock (couldnt do it again if you asked me).
And not to completely **** on your parade, this is one of the more laughable "witness" stories I have ever heard.
You found tools? In the garage you say? Praise the Lord! Allefu*kinlujah! I know that is the last place I would have expected to find tools!
Allow me to make your short story shorter: You had a panic attack. You knew that the garage was the best place to look for tools but searched in a rampaging, paniced, and breathless manner, overlooking the screwdriver and coathanger that was right under your nose. You took a moment to calm down, and then searched more calmly and methodically, and found some tools.
Woopedy doo. The number of times I have searched for a lost item only to later find it in an area I already thought I had thoroughly looked. Glad I didn't pray for divine intervention.
My spooky "Christ works in mysterious ways" story was much more spooky than that. Bwahaha, tools in the garage. You crack me up.
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while doing so i finally prayed. i asked God to help me.
If God had really helped you, don't you think the door would just have been unlocked all miraculous like?
Can you say r-a-t-i-o-n-l-i-z-a-t-i-o-n? C'mon, sure you can, try it with me.
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If God had really helped you, don't you think the door would just have been unlocked all miraculous like?
The Lord works in mysterious ways!
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And not to completely **** on your parade, this is one of the more laughable "witness" stories I have ever heard.
Wow dude, take a chill pill. It's his story...if you don't like it just hit the "Back" button on your browser. It's not hard, I'm sure you can do it, its located at the top left of your browser window. Or for your convenience just hit the "Backspace" button and it will conveniently do it for you!
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Wow dude, take a chill pill. It's his story...if you don't like it just hit the "Back" button on your browser. It's not hard, I'm sure you can do it, its located at the top left of your browser window. Or for your convenience just hit the "Backspace" button and it will conveniently do it for you!
If you don't like my post do likewise. You see how that works?
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If you don't like my post do likewise. You see how that works?
Oh I do that plenty of times, just showing you how. Never can tell who doesn't know how to use a computer and feels they have to reply to the post to exit.
I am glad we got that straightened out. Now if you wouldn't mind leaving me to my crusade against ludicrous reasons to make a potentially inhibiting and alienating lifestyle choice, that would be great. Thanks.
Edited, Mon Feb 16 13:58:24 2004 by Patrician
Edited, Mon Feb 16 13:58:24 2004 by Patrician
Will do.
I do admit that the story doesn't appear the usual "I found God" story, but it's much better than the stories about dreams and visions that made a person turn Christian. At least it sounds real and not like someone just trying to scam you out of your money...which is what that TV evangelist was probably trying to do btw.
I do admit that the story doesn't appear the usual "I found God" story, but it's much better than the stories about dreams and visions that made a person turn Christian. At least it sounds real and not like someone just trying to scam you out of your money...which is what that TV evangelist was probably trying to do btw.
Well yeah, lets not even get on to TV evangelists. Those people absolutely disgust me, and if I believed then I would also believe they were the spawn of satan. The mind games they play on poor people (who are the main target audience for those channels, most wealthy people, assuming they are bright enough to get wealthy in the first place, would not fall for that crap) are an absolute disgrace.
Finding some tools in the most likely place in the house to find tools, while completely believable, is also a ludicrous reason to decide that God exists. Regardless of a prayer in a desperate situation.
There DO exist very convincing stories - they are more of the personality change type, the abusive husband finding the Lord and becoming a practical saint. The alcholic finding the lord and being delivered from her addictions etc.
I know you think I am an *** for ragging on Empyre's story, however while we are sharing experiences, I have had a bad experience with fundamental Christianity and have pretty strong opinions about it as a result. In MY experience and from MY observation, such organisations are very controlling and survive and grow strong by encouraging it's members to alienate themselves from society. Not in a direct way, it is indirect.
This is the mantra that is repeated and repeated, the hidden implication is that the MORE alientated you are, the more chosen by God you are. I mean look at Jesus! How persecuted was he!
Friends disowned you because you keep trying to make them see the light? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. Parents disowned you because you turned your back on their own religion/upbringing? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. Got passed over for promotion at work because you **** people off by shoving your beliefs down people's throats? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. People on the message board being nasty to you? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. You best know that WE love you, WE will always be here for you. Now get your wallet out and make this church stronger. And don't miss church on Sunday if you know what is good for you.
More subtle than that, but that is the basic underlying message.
By the end of my 3 years involved with a Pentecostal church, I was alienated from my family, and had no friends outside of the church. Being a sanctimonious prick has a tendency to alienate you from people. When your family and friend support structure starts to break down, your support structure becomes the church and you become highly reliant on it. I have ZERO friends from that period of my life that were not involved with the church. I have ZERO friends from that period of my life that are still involved with the church. It is like I lost those years. I wasn't speaking to my parents for months! This was not a cult people, this was a bog standard evangelical church like you get in every town. I can't have normal conversations about my latter teenage years to this day without feeling somewhat embarrassed. I don't even know what music I liked. Some happy clappy Christian crap no doubt.
Also this wasn't just a "bad egg" church. Fundamentalist Christianity is a big subculture, I have been to many different churches in different countries, christian festivals etc. It is like this all the way through. Same mantra's, same cliches, same degree of control. It wasn't just me either, I saw many people become ENTIRELY reliant on the church for their well being. I also saw people make "mistakes" and get disowned - two teenage lovers having sex, church found out, wham! Disowned. Well, church counselling was offered, with conditions such as they stop seeing each other alone. Control. Just an example.
And another thing, while I was involved, I really REALLY believed in it, I was equally ill-educated about Christianity as Empyre is, I also parroted what I heard the Pastor say or other church members say. This sort of thing is exactly the sort of thing I would have said when losing a rational argument:
It is nonsense of course, but I also REALLY believed this to be true. Trying to pursuade a fundamentalist Christian that they are brainwashed and controlled is also pretty futile. You have to realise yourself. Of course the longer your involvement the more reliant you become on the church.
Finally, it isn't necessarily a bad thing for everyone. If you are already pretty alienated in society for whatever reason, and you don't happen to have a support structure of your own, then such Churches will provide one, which is better than nothing. However for your average well adjusted, intelligent and socially competant human being - especially if they are young and may find themselves in situations (new jobs, starting university etc) where they will need to build up a new network of supporty, then fundamentalist Christianity is a very very inhibiting and possibly damaging thing.
Woah. Did I need to get something off my chest!!
Edited, Mon Feb 16 15:34:58 2004 by Patrician
Quote:
I do admit that the story doesn't appear the usual "I found God" story, but it's much better than the stories about dreams and visions that made a person turn Christian
Finding some tools in the most likely place in the house to find tools, while completely believable, is also a ludicrous reason to decide that God exists. Regardless of a prayer in a desperate situation.
There DO exist very convincing stories - they are more of the personality change type, the abusive husband finding the Lord and becoming a practical saint. The alcholic finding the lord and being delivered from her addictions etc.
I know you think I am an *** for ragging on Empyre's story, however while we are sharing experiences, I have had a bad experience with fundamental Christianity and have pretty strong opinions about it as a result. In MY experience and from MY observation, such organisations are very controlling and survive and grow strong by encouraging it's members to alienate themselves from society. Not in a direct way, it is indirect.
This is the mantra that is repeated and repeated, the hidden implication is that the MORE alientated you are, the more chosen by God you are. I mean look at Jesus! How persecuted was he!
Quote:
God said believers will always be persecuted for believing
Friends disowned you because you keep trying to make them see the light? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. Parents disowned you because you turned your back on their own religion/upbringing? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. Got passed over for promotion at work because you **** people off by shoving your beliefs down people's throats? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. People on the message board being nasty to you? God said believers will always be persecuted for believing. You best know that WE love you, WE will always be here for you. Now get your wallet out and make this church stronger. And don't miss church on Sunday if you know what is good for you.
More subtle than that, but that is the basic underlying message.
By the end of my 3 years involved with a Pentecostal church, I was alienated from my family, and had no friends outside of the church. Being a sanctimonious prick has a tendency to alienate you from people. When your family and friend support structure starts to break down, your support structure becomes the church and you become highly reliant on it. I have ZERO friends from that period of my life that were not involved with the church. I have ZERO friends from that period of my life that are still involved with the church. It is like I lost those years. I wasn't speaking to my parents for months! This was not a cult people, this was a bog standard evangelical church like you get in every town. I can't have normal conversations about my latter teenage years to this day without feeling somewhat embarrassed. I don't even know what music I liked. Some happy clappy Christian crap no doubt.
Also this wasn't just a "bad egg" church. Fundamentalist Christianity is a big subculture, I have been to many different churches in different countries, christian festivals etc. It is like this all the way through. Same mantra's, same cliches, same degree of control. It wasn't just me either, I saw many people become ENTIRELY reliant on the church for their well being. I also saw people make "mistakes" and get disowned - two teenage lovers having sex, church found out, wham! Disowned. Well, church counselling was offered, with conditions such as they stop seeing each other alone. Control. Just an example.
And another thing, while I was involved, I really REALLY believed in it, I was equally ill-educated about Christianity as Empyre is, I also parroted what I heard the Pastor say or other church members say. This sort of thing is exactly the sort of thing I would have said when losing a rational argument:
Quote:
well some of us have chosen to believe, and in turn God has shown us he exists. i know that is difficult, and in most cases impossible, to except or understand..but if you cannot understand that, understand that there is a barrier between a believer and a non-believer
It is nonsense of course, but I also REALLY believed this to be true. Trying to pursuade a fundamentalist Christian that they are brainwashed and controlled is also pretty futile. You have to realise yourself. Of course the longer your involvement the more reliant you become on the church.
Finally, it isn't necessarily a bad thing for everyone. If you are already pretty alienated in society for whatever reason, and you don't happen to have a support structure of your own, then such Churches will provide one, which is better than nothing. However for your average well adjusted, intelligent and socially competant human being - especially if they are young and may find themselves in situations (new jobs, starting university etc) where they will need to build up a new network of supporty, then fundamentalist Christianity is a very very inhibiting and possibly damaging thing.
Woah. Did I need to get something off my chest!!
Edited, Mon Feb 16 15:34:58 2004 by Patrician
I should probably add that I am talking specifically about fundamentalist/pentecostal/evangelical, born-again style churches.
Mainstream religion, while I think they are largely irrelevant organisations, on balance do more good than harm.
Mainstream religion, while I think they are largely irrelevant organisations, on balance do more good than harm.
yeah...he could have miraculously opened the door with a bolt of lightening from the skies as it parted my rooftop and angels sang all choir-like. but i don't think at that stage I was (or even am now) solid enough in my walk with him to see definate signs like that. the walk is a slow process, and he's not going to show me distinct signs he exists right away. its a "little by little" kinda thing.
to answer your questions smash:
1. by a believer, the bible doesn't HAVE to be taken literally..it is interpretted for you. by a non-believer, the truths of the bible are not comprehendable. to think that God is going to allow a non-believer to comprehend the truths of it are ludicrous. not one of us are worthy enough to understand even a portion of who he is or what his works are. and as smart as any of you think you are, you'll never find the understanding it requires to read that book properly in this world.
2. like i said before man..if your not a believer, don't even try..its not gonna work, and your little brains are gonna get all mixed up trying. if you want to debate the bible though, your best bet is to talk to someone who has dedicated their life to God and understanding the bible...like Harold Camping or Oswald Chambers.
and patrician. try to cheapen my experience all you want because your too bitter about your own life to accept it. whatever justification you need to prove God is so unfair that your forced to take matters into your own hands is fine...but no matter what you say here, it means nothing to the life I am actually living. God provides for me, he has and he will...and theirs nothing your "back-slidden", self righteous nit-picking at my personal experiences is going to do to change that. be bitter about it if you wish...you have that right. but your still going to have to accept that these things have happened to me and I'm living an incredible life as a result...and theres absolutely nothing you can do about it. God Bless you and I hope you find your way back to him...i know its hard to come back as a back-slider..the bible says the level of difficulty is "7 times 7", but its possible.
if you don't want to, there's a special place for you somewhere else. [: wink :]
EDIT: I have to add:
omg. so your blaming God and religion because you weren't strong enough to make it through a challenge of faith? and as a result, you turn away from God and allow Satan (the one who DID all that to you) to reign in your life. yeah..now your making a ton of sense here. Job lost everything he had in a test of faith. his fortune, his home, his family and his health. he stayed faithful and as a result got everything back and more. its not God who does this, its Satan who comes to God and says we aren't faithful and strong enough to handle things like these. it looks like you weren't.
this reminds me of the cops who repeatedly get kicked off the varisty football team and then become cops to push everyone around because they couldn't any other way. grow some balls and take some responsibility for your life...you've got noone to blame but yourself.
Edited, Mon Feb 16 15:51:40 2004 by Empyre
to answer your questions smash:
1. by a believer, the bible doesn't HAVE to be taken literally..it is interpretted for you. by a non-believer, the truths of the bible are not comprehendable. to think that God is going to allow a non-believer to comprehend the truths of it are ludicrous. not one of us are worthy enough to understand even a portion of who he is or what his works are. and as smart as any of you think you are, you'll never find the understanding it requires to read that book properly in this world.
2. like i said before man..if your not a believer, don't even try..its not gonna work, and your little brains are gonna get all mixed up trying. if you want to debate the bible though, your best bet is to talk to someone who has dedicated their life to God and understanding the bible...like Harold Camping or Oswald Chambers.
and patrician. try to cheapen my experience all you want because your too bitter about your own life to accept it. whatever justification you need to prove God is so unfair that your forced to take matters into your own hands is fine...but no matter what you say here, it means nothing to the life I am actually living. God provides for me, he has and he will...and theirs nothing your "back-slidden", self righteous nit-picking at my personal experiences is going to do to change that. be bitter about it if you wish...you have that right. but your still going to have to accept that these things have happened to me and I'm living an incredible life as a result...and theres absolutely nothing you can do about it. God Bless you and I hope you find your way back to him...i know its hard to come back as a back-slider..the bible says the level of difficulty is "7 times 7", but its possible.
if you don't want to, there's a special place for you somewhere else. [: wink :]
EDIT: I have to add:
Quote:
By the end of my 3 years involved with a Pentecostal church, I was alienated from my family, and had no friends outside of the church. Being a sanctimonious prick has a tendency to alienate you from people. When your family and friend support structure starts to break down, your support structure becomes the church and you become highly reliant on it. I have ZERO friends from that period of my life that were not involved with the church. I have ZERO friends from that period of my life that are still involved with the church. It is like I lost those years. I wasn't speaking to my parents for months! This was not a cult people, this was a bog standard evangelical church like you get in every town. I can't have normal conversations about my latter teenage years to this day without feeling somewhat embarrassed. I don't even know what music I liked. Some happy clappy Christian crap no doubt.
omg. so your blaming God and religion because you weren't strong enough to make it through a challenge of faith? and as a result, you turn away from God and allow Satan (the one who DID all that to you) to reign in your life. yeah..now your making a ton of sense here. Job lost everything he had in a test of faith. his fortune, his home, his family and his health. he stayed faithful and as a result got everything back and more. its not God who does this, its Satan who comes to God and says we aren't faithful and strong enough to handle things like these. it looks like you weren't.
this reminds me of the cops who repeatedly get kicked off the varisty football team and then become cops to push everyone around because they couldn't any other way. grow some balls and take some responsibility for your life...you've got noone to blame but yourself.
Edited, Mon Feb 16 15:51:40 2004 by Empyre
Oh I am most definitely not bitter Empyre. I am not trying to pursuade you either, I know how it is. My commentry is more for the other readers really.
I wasn't nit-picking around the edges of your personal experience. I was saying it is completely and utterly ludicrous. Big difference.
I wasn't nit-picking around the edges of your personal experience. I was saying it is completely and utterly ludicrous. Big difference.
Quote:
so your blaming God and religion because you weren't strong enough to make it through a challenge of faith? and as a result, you turn away from God and allow Satan (the one who DID all that to you) to reign in your life. yeah..now your making a ton of sense here. Job lost everything he had in a test of faith. his fortune, his home, his family and his health. he stayed faithful and as a result got everything back and more. its not God who does this, its Satan who comes to God and says we aren't faithful and strong enough to handle things like these. it looks like you weren't.
See what I mean!!
Edited, Mon Feb 16 15:56:04 2004 by Patrician
no i dont see what you mean. what your doing here is simply this:
"Empyre is wrong because I am pissed off I couldn't get it to work by forcing it (or however you did it without trusting in God). And because he is wrong, I the almighty patrician, am here to save you all from happiness and contentness by telling you that if you don't listen to Empyre, you can become a bitter old man like me!"
please. I'll choose my happiness over your bitterness anyday. all you've done here is showed me i'm on the right track even more than I thought before. so I guess I should thank you. God can work through anyone...even backsliders. [: smile :]
"Empyre is wrong because I am pissed off I couldn't get it to work by forcing it (or however you did it without trusting in God). And because he is wrong, I the almighty patrician, am here to save you all from happiness and contentness by telling you that if you don't listen to Empyre, you can become a bitter old man like me!"
please. I'll choose my happiness over your bitterness anyday. all you've done here is showed me i'm on the right track even more than I thought before. so I guess I should thank you. God can work through anyone...even backsliders. [: smile :]
Patrician's story sounds kinda sorta like one I went through. I'm not enthused enough right now to get into details, but the upshot is that I spent a couple years in a fundamentalist, "born again" style church that basically taught "Church = Good, Anything not in the church = Bad". That 'anything' including friends, family, job, school, etc that the church didn't approve of. At one point, it was "suggested" that I change my college major because studio work was cutting into what they felt should be church time. Heh, makes my innate Catholic upbringing sound sane 
None of the above is inteded towards you, Emp. Just a 'been there, done that', directed to Patrician.
None of the above is inteded towards you, Emp. Just a 'been there, done that', directed to Patrician.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
I understand. its ironic as well...i grew up in a pentecostal church too..got force fed until i threw up. it would make anyone second guess their sanity. i cannot say whether its right or wrong tho..i'm not the judge. and heck..my dad is still a preacher.
I listen to Family Radio now. It's more mild, makes more sense and the people there educate and help you understand it yourself instead of forcing it on you and saying "see thats how it is". They've got some interesting theories (yes I said it) on whats going on right now and its worth a look to anyone that's interested. especially if you've been burned by the pentecost..so to speak.
anyways..i'm not saying pat's a bad person or trying not to sympathize with him. I'm just saying that telling me my experiences are not what they are is pointless, and a movement to "save the readers from what I have" is not only ludicrous sounding, but destructive in every way..especially since i'm not on a mission to save them.
I listen to Family Radio now. It's more mild, makes more sense and the people there educate and help you understand it yourself instead of forcing it on you and saying "see thats how it is". They've got some interesting theories (yes I said it) on whats going on right now and its worth a look to anyone that's interested. especially if you've been burned by the pentecost..so to speak.
anyways..i'm not saying pat's a bad person or trying not to sympathize with him. I'm just saying that telling me my experiences are not what they are is pointless, and a movement to "save the readers from what I have" is not only ludicrous sounding, but destructive in every way..especially since i'm not on a mission to save them.
Ironically I am also in the same boat as Patrician, wasted most of my life in church and with Christians. Kids are easily pursuaded and brainwashed, especially when everyone you know is a lemming of some other lemming. I was just a copy of my parents for years, if they didn't like something I didn't either. And if something was "evil" I didn't go near it...and I'm not talking about Klu Klux Klan **** I am talking about things as simple as The Simpsons.
Then I went off to college and I didn't have my whole world revolve around Christianity. Without everyone shouting about Christianity I was able to think and really analyse what I thought to be true. And you know what I found, most of that stuff is nothing but BS. For the most part Christianity is a lemming-making-disease. They make excuses for the contradictions found in the Bible and are the most hypocritical group I know.
I just wanted to add I don't judge people who claim to be Christians until I get to know them. As a whole I don't like the group but I have great friends that are Christians. For one of my friends becoming a Christian saved his life (literally). So for some it works.
Edited, Mon Feb 16 17:41:23 2004 by rixtar
Then I went off to college and I didn't have my whole world revolve around Christianity. Without everyone shouting about Christianity I was able to think and really analyse what I thought to be true. And you know what I found, most of that stuff is nothing but BS. For the most part Christianity is a lemming-making-disease. They make excuses for the contradictions found in the Bible and are the most hypocritical group I know.
I just wanted to add I don't judge people who claim to be Christians until I get to know them. As a whole I don't like the group but I have great friends that are Christians. For one of my friends becoming a Christian saved his life (literally). So for some it works.
Edited, Mon Feb 16 17:41:23 2004 by rixtar
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i know its hard to come back as a back-slider..the bible says the level of difficulty is "7 times 7", but its possible.
Scripture references please. Stop quoting what some guy at your church said with the "7 times 7" thing. Stop quoting myths for Christ's sake. 7 times *70* is a reference to how many times a good Christian like you should forgive a bad back-slider like me when I sin against you. By my reckoning I have a good 484 sins against you to go.
There is a reason it is rare. Once you snap out of brainwashing, it is like the light has been switched on. You would have to be crazy to allow yourself to be brainwashed again.
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omg. so your blaming God and religion because you weren't strong enough to make it through a challenge of faith? and as a result, you turn away from God and allow Satan (the one who DID all that to you) to reign in your life.
I am afraid there is a fault in your logic here. When I was still a member of the church there was no challenge - it didn't matter that my friends and family had disowned me. God said believers will always be persecuted for believing! I had the church and Jesus, I didn't need anything else! What was difficult was turning my back on the church, because now the church was my life. By turning my back on the manipulative and controlling church, only then did I lose everything, and had to restart my life from scratch. That took strength. Blindly staying in the warm bosom of the church would not have.
Being brainwashed feels pretty nice and safe actually. There is more comfort in absolute black and whites than there is in grey. Being rational and questioning takes much more bravery. I am sure you will agree.
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Job lost everything he had in a test of faith. his fortune, his home, his family and his health. he stayed faithful and as a result got everything back and more.
This is one of the more commonly used cliches (also the rich man and the poor woman making donations story) in fundamentalist Christianity - especially with TV and Radio evangelists. A very thinly veiled way of encouraging you to get your wallet out basically. Already poor? Give more! The Lord will provide, ye shall inherit the kingdom of heaven etc etc. There is the kicker right there. The unscrupulous can manipulate people into making a few scoundrels rich on the basis of parables and stories where the lesson is that the giver will have abundant riches in heaven. Well aint that convenient for the complete ******** who get rich of TV evangelism. One thing they are not is stupid.
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Empyre is wrong because I am pissed off I couldn't get it to work by forcing it (or however you did it without trusting in God).
No. It was working, I forced my way OUT of it. I am stating my strong opinions about an organisation I consider filled with corruption, manipulation, and control that is potentially damaging, because to do otherwise would be weak.
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you can become a bitter old man like me!"
Woah there buddy, you seem to think I am bitter. I am not. I am now very happy and content, with a very rich and fulfilling life.
I don't really have any beliefs now, I guess I am agnostic. As religious theory goes, I have most time for Religious Pluralism (read "The Life of Pi"), i.e. that all world religions refer to the same God, and are all non-literal, different, man made stories to attempt to explain the same thing. The concept of a "Church" as in a man made organisation I am strongly against - they are too open to corruption, kiddie fiddlers, and the money hungry. I beleive that individuals should have a personal relationship with "God" if they believe, unbiased by the dictates of any organisation.
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God can work through anyone...even backsliders. 
The Lord works in mysterious ways!
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anyways..i'm not saying pat's a bad person or trying not to sympathize with him
I definitely don't need sympathy. You have mine though. How strong is your faith anyway? Would you die for Jesus?
i forgot a "0"..oh no, i'm human..that MUST mean i'm brainwashed!
the problem here is YOU were brainwashed. now you feel so bitter about it (yes you are bitter about it), that everyone else that believes in God must be brainwashed because you were. good try, and nice story. thats like me says because I dropped my 52 warrior into fear and got him smacked to death that everyone that ever goes in there will die..or even better, anyone that ever steps foot in a plane will die no matter what. nice generalization and stereotype. pot, kettle..black?
and your wrong lil buddy...the story of Job is about faith, not donating money. you picked a bad church..and i'm not denying theres a lot of em out there. in fact, nowadays I don't believe in going to church. if it is indeed the end of the church age now, God is not working in them anyhow.
now when we come to your last few paragraphs I can start to agree with you. I believe too that church is not the place to be. I believe God has called his people out of the church's and called us instead to fellowship and use ourselves to spread the gospel. Satan is now working in the churches and we are in the tribulation.
On the subject of other people looking at God differently...I don't know. It says christ won't come again until everyone has heard the gospel, and i'm not sure how a village of 20 people buried in a jungle will hear about christ..but then again missionaries are out there as we speak, so it may not be far off. I can't bring myself to say that God would display himself as any other god tho. When he spoke with man on the mountain-top and was asked his name, he basically said none of your business anyhow. We created his name (although we came as close as we could I think)...so who's to say he doesn't speak to others differently..i don't know, but he hasn't revealed that to me.
so iono...do we have common beliefs and are torn in arguement here due to events in our lives tainting our views? i don't know what you could have hoped to gain by telling me my experiences are false and come from brainwashing just because you are against the church...especially considering they were in no way connected to nor have anything to do with a church. I've seen 2 churches in almost 10 years. 1 I visited once and the other maybe 3 or 4 times. My experiences are personal experiences. Ironically enough, I don't believe in going to church anymore either. But I DO believe in the bible, God and Christ.
Sounds to me like you've been burned by the church and now are on a crusade against believers. It's like me standing outside Sony HQ and protesting because someone KSed and stole my Orc1 camp. Read "The End of the Church Age... and After" by Harold Camping. You may find that you weren't wrong for what you saw in the church, but your blaming the wrong person. It's all in the bible...but if you allow yourself to get brainwashed, its not his fault.
the problem here is YOU were brainwashed. now you feel so bitter about it (yes you are bitter about it), that everyone else that believes in God must be brainwashed because you were. good try, and nice story. thats like me says because I dropped my 52 warrior into fear and got him smacked to death that everyone that ever goes in there will die..or even better, anyone that ever steps foot in a plane will die no matter what. nice generalization and stereotype. pot, kettle..black?
and your wrong lil buddy...the story of Job is about faith, not donating money. you picked a bad church..and i'm not denying theres a lot of em out there. in fact, nowadays I don't believe in going to church. if it is indeed the end of the church age now, God is not working in them anyhow.
now when we come to your last few paragraphs I can start to agree with you. I believe too that church is not the place to be. I believe God has called his people out of the church's and called us instead to fellowship and use ourselves to spread the gospel. Satan is now working in the churches and we are in the tribulation.
On the subject of other people looking at God differently...I don't know. It says christ won't come again until everyone has heard the gospel, and i'm not sure how a village of 20 people buried in a jungle will hear about christ..but then again missionaries are out there as we speak, so it may not be far off. I can't bring myself to say that God would display himself as any other god tho. When he spoke with man on the mountain-top and was asked his name, he basically said none of your business anyhow. We created his name (although we came as close as we could I think)...so who's to say he doesn't speak to others differently..i don't know, but he hasn't revealed that to me.
so iono...do we have common beliefs and are torn in arguement here due to events in our lives tainting our views? i don't know what you could have hoped to gain by telling me my experiences are false and come from brainwashing just because you are against the church...especially considering they were in no way connected to nor have anything to do with a church. I've seen 2 churches in almost 10 years. 1 I visited once and the other maybe 3 or 4 times. My experiences are personal experiences. Ironically enough, I don't believe in going to church anymore either. But I DO believe in the bible, God and Christ.
Sounds to me like you've been burned by the church and now are on a crusade against believers. It's like me standing outside Sony HQ and protesting because someone KSed and stole my Orc1 camp. Read "The End of the Church Age... and After" by Harold Camping. You may find that you weren't wrong for what you saw in the church, but your blaming the wrong person. It's all in the bible...but if you allow yourself to get brainwashed, its not his fault.
There is no point arguing it. I do not believe all believers are brainwashed. Far from it. I believe YOU are brainwashed because you exhibit the characteristics. Religious literalism with a very low knowledge of actual scripture. Most of what you parrot is very clearly stuff you have been told, NOT what you have read in the bible. CLEARLY.
Where was that seven times seven passage again?
Where was that seven times seven passage again?
And while you a flicking through the bible looking for the non-existant scripture that says it is seven times seven more difficult for a backslider to come back to Christ, ponder this statement of yours.
Okie dokie then. It is my conjecture that somebody told you this, or you heard it on the radio, it makes sense as an explanation to you for why the bible seemingly contradicts itself, therefore you now state this as a catch all argument when discussing the bible with rational people.
I put it to you that you have no examples from your own studies. You are basing your argument on brainwashing, not personal experience.
So now. Prove me wrong. A bible scholar like yourself must have many examples of where God guided you about the real and beautiful meaning of seemingly contradictory verses crossing each other. I would assume that Gods guiding you would stick in your mind, and I assume that God is not intentionally obtuse when guiding you - in fact I assume he is very clear. Crystal clear. So go on, post an example. Just one. A nice simple one is fine, so we can understand the mystery of the Lord.
You see Empyre, parroting propoganda that some guy on the radio sold you is the very definition of brainwashing. You need to start comeing up with your own ideas, based on the good book itself little buddy. Because right now you are just a parrot for some guy with an agenda.
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its quite the opposite when you believe and start to explore the bible with God guiding you. you see references you took as literal starting to cross each other and mean much more beautiful things than you could ever have imagined
Okie dokie then. It is my conjecture that somebody told you this, or you heard it on the radio, it makes sense as an explanation to you for why the bible seemingly contradicts itself, therefore you now state this as a catch all argument when discussing the bible with rational people.
I put it to you that you have no examples from your own studies. You are basing your argument on brainwashing, not personal experience.
So now. Prove me wrong. A bible scholar like yourself must have many examples of where God guided you about the real and beautiful meaning of seemingly contradictory verses crossing each other. I would assume that Gods guiding you would stick in your mind, and I assume that God is not intentionally obtuse when guiding you - in fact I assume he is very clear. Crystal clear. So go on, post an example. Just one. A nice simple one is fine, so we can understand the mystery of the Lord.
You see Empyre, parroting propoganda that some guy on the radio sold you is the very definition of brainwashing. You need to start comeing up with your own ideas, based on the good book itself little buddy. Because right now you are just a parrot for some guy with an agenda.
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