With the introduction of atmas....Follow

It is about time to remove the useless perpetuation system.

It has already been proven for countless years that a zero perpetuation carbuncle is not effecting game balance. A zero perpetuation Fenrir or Garuda does not effect game balance. And now with abyssea we know that a zero perpetuation ANY avatar, is not breaking balance. Which means the only reason the system is still there, is because someone thinks Summoners should have less fun than other jobs. That is the only purpose, making the job less popular. A useless design, considering the job isn't even popular to begin with.

I'm well aware the amount of gear that would need re-designing if the perpetuation was removed, but I think you are only getting into a worse situation the longer you postpone it. It didn't make sense to begin with that Summoners where the only job equipping gear to offset a design flaw. You never pushed PUPs into wearing "-1 min recast on activate" gear full time, but you instead added a 1 min base JA to call a new one on death. Stop forcing Summoners to collect hundreds of armors to fix YOUR flaws with the job. Perpetuation is not balance related, so all it does is prevent you from actually using the job.


As a side note, you've completely forgotten to give spirits new spells BUT remembered to increase perpetuation. So I'm supposed to pay 7 MP per tick extra for the exact same results? Why not force a BLM to pay 100 MP extra for the same Thunder IV but renamed Thunder V and see if they'll react. Only reason you aren't spammed about this flaw is because people already gave up on your lack of responses years ago.


Until you fix this, you'll see me enjoy Abyssea and not care at all for the rest of the game. Take it as a hint that the only thing you ever did right since 2001, was Abyssea.

yeah, but if you have to concentrate on a particular element for a mob b/c of resistance/weakness factors, a SMN is restricted due to perpetuation. SMN has no way of being more efficient with that entire line of magic without loading up on a bunch of -perp specific gears, wheres any other mage only increases damage output by gear choices--the only thing another mage job can do with gear for efficiendcy is stack Conserve MP, which is a whole different ball of wax, as their mp cost is a flat amount per spell that never changes unless moving to a more potent tier of magic (Thunder IV always costs the same, unless Conserve MP kicks in an reduces the cost), and always has the same base damage to it (unless it gets resisted, or is modded by job traits, mob weakness/resistance, day/weather, and gear).

So comparing it to a BLM is really an invalid argument--SMN either sacrifices -perp, or accuracy/damage. No other job has to make such a sacrifice--it is unique to SMN.

Raist

No, I actually do know things about BLM...I also know some things about SMN.

Aside from gear/merits to modifiy them, Avatar's need TP for better damage. With 0 TP, an avatar's T4 spell is only 512 damage, plus a MAB4 trait at 75 (32 MAB). Even the Merit BP's aren't worth much at 0 TP when you first unlock them (ony +40TP per merit, for roughly 70 damage). Unless you've dumped merits into the right categories, they are all kinda meh without TP or (as you stated) pieces that give extra damage to the avatars. So if you don't have the magic attack merrits (that only cap at +10 btw), you may be keeping them out to build TP--or equipping gear to increase potency of the magic (sometimes maybe even both). Either way the spells can cost more mp than their casting cost because they may be costing you a perpetuation cost one way or the other just to have them out--either you let them build TP to compensate (which costs mp if you can't gear for free avatar), or you sacrifice -perp gears for increasing their potency (negating your free avatar state you would have with the -perp gears).

SMN is the ONLY job that can NATIVELY expend more mp to increase damage output. What does a BLM give up to equip more MAB or more INT, or an elemental obi (which would often offset any damage/accuracy lost by the item in that slot)? Maybe max mp if sacrificing something in that slot--but nothing they do (short of casting something like Burn first) costs them more MP to do more damage.

You really can't defend against the OP by using BLM as an example. You really can't compare anything to it honestly--as I said earlier, this is a unique problem that is in no way replicated for any other job. The only job that ever sacrifices something like this directly is DRG when it uses Spirit Link to heal their wyverns--but that is an on demand thing, not a perpetual cost built into the pet's summoning.

Here's some food for thought...any level SMN monster can walk around all day with an elemental out, and still have lots of mp to spare. Do they have a perpetuation cost? If not, why do the players?

Raist

Edited, Oct 3rd 2010 8:28pm by BDHERTZER

you obvously are not getting the point.

How does a BLM increase it's output per spell. Gear/merits/food--not building TP

Edit: this is the point Mellowy was trying to make that you seemed to have missed, and steered the comparison, which prompted me to respond about the BLM comparison. What if a BLM suddenly had to spend more mp to maintain a T4 spell's damage. What would the outcry be?

How does a SMN increast it's output per spell. Gear/merits or building Avatar's TP.

How does a BLM build TP? By fighting--but it doesn't affect magic output.

How does a SMN build an Avatars TP to increase output--leaving the avatar out to melee, which costs mp if it's not free from perpetuation cost.

How does a SMN increase spell output without building TP? Gear or merits. If merits aren't cutting it, it adds gear. If it ads gear in places it would have -perp gear--guess what, it's costing more mp.

If you don't have the perfect set of gear to balance enough perp cost while putting on enough magic attack bonus to compliment your merits to do decent damage, you have to keep the avatar out longer to build the TP to compensate which can cost you mp from perpetuation--unless you use favor to offset -3mp perpetuation. Surprise.. that nerfs avatar magic output 20%. And here we go again... now you have to melee even longer to offset the MAB nerf to get that damage back. So now you manage to get your damage while mitigating the mp cost... but now you have to wait longer to nuke because you are trying to build the TP to compensate the MAB nerf.

Do you not see the efficiency problem YET??!!!

There is no mp spent to improve a BLM efficiency in any way shape or form on a tier4 spell. Yes, he can use a higher teir, but that is now comparing apples and oranges. He can CHOOSE to spend more mp for that bigger spell, or....he can just change gear or food to do more damage with the same spell. In order to get more damage with an avatar's spell--you either have to swap gear and risk suffering more perpetuation cost, or wait for your avatar to gain TP. If you are building TP without a free avatar already, then you are spending mp to build that TP.

TLDR:
(which appears to be what you are doing, since you seem to like to quote only the parts of a post you challenge, when your challenge is already being discussed elsewhere in the post)

All a BLM has to do to increase the power of a spell is apply merits, take food and/or swap in some gear. Almost anything a SMN does to increase output for a single spell (outside of merits) either risks increased mp loss to perpetuation cost by swapping in pet magic attack gears, or otherwise delays casting while TP is built because they are offsetting the perpetuation cost at the expense of base magic potency by not swapping pet magic attack gears for -perp. gears.

Raist

Edited, Oct 3rd 2010 11:14pm by BDHERTZER

I wish I knew why people did old content still. E bodies are free lot, and STILL we do einherjar twice a week to get more of them. Maybe people just need their 18th job fully geared as well.



I'm pretty sure I had two points.

1. Perpetuation serves no purpose at all. Carbuncle proved it 2003, Fenrir and Garuda proved it recently, and Abyssea proved that it counts for all avatars. It is about as defendable as saying wyvern recast should be 2 hours because it is a job specific ability that can't be subbed. I.e. only a fool would say it should stay. (Or someone who hates pet jobs)

2. Spirits still only cast tier IV spells BUT HAVE HIGHER PERP COST. Which is the same as a BLM having higher MP cost on their tier IV spells and getting no tier V spells. I.e. same sh*t, but at a worse MP efficiency. Hard to claim that is anything but a gigantic design flaw. (Or more likely ignorance)

In short, WHM, SCH, RDM, BLM, PUP got new spells, SMN didn't. Spot the 5 faults.

The outcry would be that they'd use some different spells.

Remember when AM2s came out? Did anyone endlessly bitch about how (not) efficient they were? No, they just simply didn't use those spells (except for Manafont or whatever).

I don't know a single BLM here that makes it a point to refer to AM2s and how crappy they are and how they need to be buffed in virtually every single post that they make (particularly in threads that aren't even about BLMs or AM2s), but if they did, I'd be telling them the same thing.




I don't know any SMNs that actually do this for BP purposes, btw. Just saying.

There's probably a good reason for it too -- maybe like, outside of Abyssea anyway, the extra MP and time that it takes doesn't justify what you get out of it?




What I'm not seeing is why you are blabbing endlessly about things like avatar TP and blood pacts, two things that do not mean anything at all to SMN spirits, which is what I was responding to in the first place.

That you have to do all the things you listed just to be a lesser version of what any other job can be with a fraction of the effort.

Again.. a BLM is a different animal in that regard--a SMN CAN'T choose a different spell. They are getting hit with MORE MP COST AND ARE STUCK WITH THE SAME SPELL, AND NO MORE DAMAGE FROM IT.

I think the reason behind that example was one of those situations where you use an absurd exageration to prove a point. What if a BLM was stuck with only a tier4 spell as it's highest option, but had to pay more MP to use it at higher levels?

I know that sounds absurd...but that is the point. When it comes to magical attacks, SMN is stuck with the same spells, that do the same damage--but they cost MORE MP to use. The ONLY way to increase a magical attack for SMN outside of merits and a handful of gear swaps, is to build TP with an avatar, which again costs more MP. Which is why you say this:



And actually, I DO do this, and it makes a difference. I only have 2 merits so far on Wind Blade and Heavenly strike and my avatars only need a couple hits to hit the 25% mod from TP. I don't build them to 120+ TP too often for the 40-50% because of the MP bleed, but 2 or 3 hits to get to 100+ TP for the extra damage does pay off.

SMN really does get the shaft on this aspect of the job. They continue to have to pay more for the same results, and have to find more ways to try to compensate. At least other mages can simply use food to get a little more oomph from their magic (this option even extends to WHM). The only mod SMN gets to magic damage when leveling is what little increase in INT the summons receive (woohoo 1.5 x dINT in additional damage), or if their summons break a new MAB tier.

And look at all the gear options other mages have to augment their output as well and contrast that to SMN. So much SMN gear is centered around either -perp, +MP, or + skill (which doesn't directly boost magic damage)--they only have a handful of gear choices to augment pet MAD.

If they nixed the increases to perp cost (as in we are over 300 skill now, perhaps our concentration level is high enough for it to stop costing more mp for the same avatar now) or at the very least let skill over cap somehow be a mod to pet MAD--than this would probably be a non-issue. But...things are just too messed up now for them to consider such changes I guess.

At LEAST let the elementals get another tier of magic--it's only been 15-17 levels since some of them have gotten anything new to use.

Raist

There's no reason to be complaining about perp costs anymore... Between the magian trials for perp -6 staves, the new Caller's Pendant with weather:perp-1, Caller's Horn +1/+2 with Refresh, Caller's Pigaches +1/+2 with -2/-3 perp respectively... There are many ways to get free avatars now.

Even without weather you have:
-1 Auto Refresh
-6 Magian Staff
-1 Caller's Horn +1
-2 ACP Body or Yinyang Robe
-1 Nashira Gages
-1 Evoker's Ring
-1 Augur's Brais
-3 Caller's Pigaches +2

That's a total of Perp -16, enough to have any avatar free aside from spirits. Add Refresh and even your spirits should be free or close to it. Not to mention very few of those items are outside the casual player's reach. Magian staves can be soloed, Caller's +1 gear can be quested, ACP Body is easy to get, Evoker's Ring easy quest. Nashira Gages & Augur's Brais are a little more difficult, but Conjurer's Ring could also stand in for one of those if you don't mind yellow HP. Either that or Sanction/Sigil refresh.

The way I see it, SE has essentially granted your request already with all these new items they've added. Perp is already a thing of the past, for those bold enough to pursue the above items.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 8:45am by Pergatory

Excuse my smn ignorance but if they did get rid of perp how much gear could be thrown out? And wouldn't that cause some huge upset after wasting that time getting perp gear?

Also I'm not really sure SE would do gear revamps unless they were just wording errors so they would just make all new gear for smn to get. >.<!

No its relevant to her or him, and people who know they have inventory issues. Thats like saying, well I am not going to get a Black Belt on my monk, I know its like one o the better things I can get to better my job, but because I have 8 other jobs I can't afford the inventory space for this ra/ex item. To me its just inv-1.





Edited, Oct 5th 2010 10:50pm by rdmcandie

Yet, one item is a hell of a lot easier to manage than eight.

Frankly, inventory is mandatory in a game that boasts 20 jobs, then the exponential combinations that come about due to subjobs. Yes, I've weened my usual jobs from like 9 to 5. Depending on how tedious gear will be to get at 86+ (paired with Traverser Stone restrictions), that number could further dwindle. I'm sorry we're not one job wonders like you are and have chosen to partake of one the game's features with some sense of regularity.

Which is all well and good for career SMNs, but that goes back to my earlier post: If -perp is scrapped, what do you do with it? Because I can think of some angry SMNs who might suddenly find themselves with 8 useless staves that took a long time to produce. Nonetheless, for those who may be more passively interested in SMN, falling behind the curve because you just can't hold the gear (Don't confuse this with solely not going for it) doesn't exactly prompt people to keep at it.

You can really say that abou any gear though, and as of right now I agree with the skepticism because SE is pretty unpredictable atm. Had we had this discussion a couple years ago id probably berate you some, because you would just be acting silly. But since SE seems to have a new cater to the people anything goes attitude right now, id say chances of those staves becoming largely redundant is a high possibility. But that still doesn't take away there usefulness right now. For what they are meant to do nothing does it better.

Personally on a whole I think SE dropped the ball on staves anyhow. I would have liked to see a line that was a direct +1 to elemental staves, as it stands the only one that really makes sense for myself to get is the new light staff. Had they gone with a staff line that gave say +35ACC +35% potency -4 perp id be spending a lot of time busting my ass getting them, while not as good as any of the dedicated lines they are better than the lvl 51 staves and useful in a variety of situation.

Personally I think the current swords are a waste of time for a RDM or a PLD, or anyone who can use the joyeuse. Math Wise it is still the best bang for the buck compared to the OA2/0A2-3 swords. But I digress.

In the context of the thread though, -perp is still in the game and these staves help make any pet (save elementals unless getting refresh II) free to keep out. As such the semantics argument is redundant, if you want free avatars, you should get these staves. If you don't want to gamble on it or do the work, or simply don't have the INV then don't bitch about it. The fix is in the game already. Id also wager that should SE lift -perp and SMN's did get these staves we would see lots of

"Thanks a lot SE for wasting days of my life" threads. Containing similar QQ as to those who are presently bitching about Salvage gear falling behind.

Maybe I am just misunderstanding what this thread is, but then again it is hard to keep up with all the threads about people who want things without any work these days.

Sure they didn't unlock any new abilities this time around, but that doesn't mean we didn't get anything. I think SMN got the single largest boost to existing damage from the level increases. I do more damage with Pred Claws at 85 with favor up than I did at 75 without favor. I went from doing 800-1400 damage to doing 1200-2000 damage with Pred Claws and that's outside Abyssea. Inside Abyssea, I've been doing up to 2900 damage with Pred Claws to a VT and that was before I had atma. Summoner has definitely gotten benefit from the increased cost.

I'm not saying perpetuation is a problem, I am saying it is useless. That is the topic at hand. And considering the effect is negative and useless, it would be a good idea to remove it.

Some of the replies seem to think it actually does something though, so I guess I'll have to reply somewhat to them.



Predator claws are separate from perpetuation. Keeping an avatar out won't raise Predator claws damage, and having perpetuation won't lower it in some kind of balance sense. To say we got a benefit from raised perpetuation is about as accurate as saying Predator claws and Summoner got a benefit out of increasing our club skill. It did increase with levels, but it hardly effects Predator claws in any sense.



Stop 3 seconds and think that one through.

Your arugment:
No perpetuation -> SMN invincible with kiting -> needs adjustments to counter it.

Year 2003 fact:
Free carbuncle -> Hardly invincible kiting

Simply put, your theory has already been proven wrong years ago. Even so I yearly see people make the same claims. It is about as funny to me, as people saying BST ruins exp is for BSTs. Stop spreading this thrash of a lie already.



However the following penalties come with having a pet summoned.

- Summoning cost (single time loss of MP)
- Perpetuation (constant loss of MP)
- Inability to rest back MP (regain of MP prevented)
- Inability to Siphon (regain of MP prevented)
- Restriction of access to BPs (only 1/8th of your JAs are available)
- Aggressive pets that attack slept mobs (MPK friendly)

And this is your status without a pet summoned.

- Can't do anything except melee with a B rated staff skill and a selection of staffs usually in the range of DMG30.


Want to give it a try and list all things a BST lose on using a jug? Want to describe how weak a DRG is without wyvern?



Again, perpetuation exist and it can be countered. The thing is that it is pointless and serves no purpose. Think of it as Paladin roll. Something added once and didn't fit into the game, but then left as it is because SE was busy working on the next thing. I'm sure I'd get support from all CORs if they had to spend one of two rolls on Paladin roll automatically because SE on a whim decided to add "auto roll paladin roll" into the code.

Its kind of redundant to limit a job because of its survivability. Just a short list of jobs if played right can survive for pretty much ever. DNC,RDM,THF,NIN,WHM,PLD,BLU,DRG,BLM,SCH Why should SMN get gimped because it can kite.

(granted you can get free avatars now so its not really gimp or limited).

I don't think they're anti-solo anymore. I think they've moved on to anti-(anyjobbutPLDandWAR)tanking.

DRG is a whole other beast. They don't need to be brought into this discussion. >.<! How they perform is directly tied to their subjob. They are also far from the qualified pet job comparisons since we have minimal control over our pets actions.