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#1 Oct 03 2010 at 5:25 AM Rating: Good
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It is about time to remove the useless perpetuation system.

It has already been proven for countless years that a zero perpetuation carbuncle is not effecting game balance. A zero perpetuation Fenrir or Garuda does not effect game balance. And now with abyssea we know that a zero perpetuation ANY avatar, is not breaking balance. Which means the only reason the system is still there, is because someone thinks Summoners should have less fun than other jobs. That is the only purpose, making the job less popular. A useless design, considering the job isn't even popular to begin with.

I'm well aware the amount of gear that would need re-designing if the perpetuation was removed, but I think you are only getting into a worse situation the longer you postpone it. It didn't make sense to begin with that Summoners where the only job equipping gear to offset a design flaw. You never pushed PUPs into wearing "-1 min recast on activate" gear full time, but you instead added a 1 min base JA to call a new one on death. Stop forcing Summoners to collect hundreds of armors to fix YOUR flaws with the job. Perpetuation is not balance related, so all it does is prevent you from actually using the job.


As a side note, you've completely forgotten to give spirits new spells BUT remembered to increase perpetuation. So I'm supposed to pay 7 MP per tick extra for the exact same results? Why not force a BLM to pay 100 MP extra for the same Thunder IV but renamed Thunder V and see if they'll react. Only reason you aren't spammed about this flaw is because people already gave up on your lack of responses years ago.


Until you fix this, you'll see me enjoy Abyssea and not care at all for the rest of the game. Take it as a hint that the only thing you ever did right since 2001, was Abyssea.
#2 Oct 03 2010 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know if you noticed, but a whole ton of jobs have the capability to become significantly stronger, and in some cases utterly broken, in Abyssea. That's part of how the area works. Just because PUP has the ability to load up on MAB atmas and start easily throwing around 4-5k damage nukes or whatever doesn't mean it wouldn't potentially upset game balance elsewhere.

I don't like perp either, but Abyssea isn't really a good excuse to adjust the system.

Quote:
As a side note, you've completely forgotten to give spirits new spells BUT remembered to increase perpetuation. So I'm supposed to pay 7 MP per tick extra for the exact same results?


No, you're supposed to stop using ****** expensive avatars if they aren't any good.

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Why not force a BLM to pay 100 MP extra for the same Thunder IV but renamed Thunder V and see if they'll react.


BLMs aren't forced into anything; they have other nukes just like you have other summons.
#3 Oct 03 2010 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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yeah, but if you have to concentrate on a particular element for a mob b/c of resistance/weakness factors, a SMN is restricted due to perpetuation. SMN has no way of being more efficient with that entire line of magic without loading up on a bunch of -perp specific gears, wheres any other mage only increases damage output by gear choices--the only thing another mage job can do with gear for efficiendcy is stack Conserve MP, which is a whole different ball of wax, as their mp cost is a flat amount per spell that never changes unless moving to a more potent tier of magic (Thunder IV always costs the same, unless Conserve MP kicks in an reduces the cost), and always has the same base damage to it (unless it gets resisted, or is modded by job traits, mob weakness/resistance, day/weather, and gear).

So comparing it to a BLM is really an invalid argument--SMN either sacrifices -perp, or accuracy/damage. No other job has to make such a sacrifice--it is unique to SMN.

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#4 Oct 03 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Decent
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yeah, but if you have to concentrate on a particular element for a mob b/c of resistance/weakness factors, a SMN is restricted due to perpetuation. SMN has no way of being more efficient with that entire line of magic without loading up on a bunch of -perp specific gears,


Uhh, the only thing -perp is useful for is keeping an avatar out to melee, which has nothing to do with element. What happened to pet: MAB gear?

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the only thing another mage job can do with gear for efficiendcy is stack Conserve MP


Again, MAB, INT? Hello?


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So comparing it to a BLM is really an invalid argument--SMN either sacrifices -perp, or accuracy/damage. No other job has to make such a sacrifice--it is unique to SMN.


If you don't think BLMs would give up efficiency by having to avoid using their highest Thunder nukes, you don't really know the job all that well.

All I was trying to point out was that BLMs have other attacks and will adapt and use those, instead of acting like the whole ******* job is crippled because they somehow "have" to use Thunder nukes. If Thunder sucks on something, they use something else. Ain't ******* hard.
#5 Oct 03 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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No, I actually do know things about BLM...I also know some things about SMN.

Aside from gear/merits to modifiy them, Avatar's need TP for better damage. With 0 TP, an avatar's T4 spell is only 512 damage, plus a MAB4 trait at 75 (32 MAB). Even the Merit BP's aren't worth much at 0 TP when you first unlock them (ony +40TP per merit, for roughly 70 damage). Unless you've dumped merits into the right categories, they are all kinda meh without TP or (as you stated) pieces that give extra damage to the avatars. So if you don't have the magic attack merrits (that only cap at +10 btw), you may be keeping them out to build TP--or equipping gear to increase potency of the magic (sometimes maybe even both). Either way the spells can cost more mp than their casting cost because they may be costing you a perpetuation cost one way or the other just to have them out--either you let them build TP to compensate (which costs mp if you can't gear for free avatar), or you sacrifice -perp gears for increasing their potency (negating your free avatar state you would have with the -perp gears).

SMN is the ONLY job that can NATIVELY expend more mp to increase damage output. What does a BLM give up to equip more MAB or more INT, or an elemental obi (which would often offset any damage/accuracy lost by the item in that slot)? Maybe max mp if sacrificing something in that slot--but nothing they do (short of casting something like Burn first) costs them more MP to do more damage.

You really can't defend against the OP by using BLM as an example. You really can't compare anything to it honestly--as I said earlier, this is a unique problem that is in no way replicated for any other job. The only job that ever sacrifices something like this directly is DRG when it uses Spirit Link to heal their wyverns--but that is an on demand thing, not a perpetual cost built into the pet's summoning.

Here's some food for thought...any level SMN monster can walk around all day with an elemental out, and still have lots of mp to spare. Do they have a perpetuation cost? If not, why do the players?

Raist

Edited, Oct 3rd 2010 8:28pm by BDHERTZER
#6 Oct 03 2010 at 8:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No, I actually do know things about BLM


It's not showing.

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SMN is the ONLY job that can NATIVELY expend more mp to increase damage output.


Uhh, no? Pretty much any magic attacker can do this.

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You really can't defend against the OP by using BLM as an example. You really can't compare anything to it honestly--as I said earlier, this is a unique problem that is in no way replicated for any other job.


No, it's not unique; and by the way, I'm not the one who brought up the BLM comparison first.

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Here's some food for thought...any level SMN monster can walk around all day with an elemental out, and still have lots of mp to spare. Do they have a perpetuation cost? If not, why do the players?


NIN mobs never run out of tools either, mobs can move while casting magic, etc. etc.

Mobs cannot be compared to us; they are designed to do loads of things that we can't in order to help balance for ****** AI.
#7 Oct 03 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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you obvously are not getting the point.

How does a BLM increase it's output per spell. Gear/merits/food--not building TP

Edit: this is the point Mellowy was trying to make that you seemed to have missed, and steered the comparison, which prompted me to respond about the BLM comparison. What if a BLM suddenly had to spend more mp to maintain a T4 spell's damage. What would the outcry be?

How does a SMN increast it's output per spell. Gear/merits or building Avatar's TP.

How does a BLM build TP? By fighting--but it doesn't affect magic output.

How does a SMN build an Avatars TP to increase output--leaving the avatar out to melee, which costs mp if it's not free from perpetuation cost.

How does a SMN increase spell output without building TP? Gear or merits. If merits aren't cutting it, it adds gear. If it ads gear in places it would have -perp gear--guess what, it's costing more mp.

If you don't have the perfect set of gear to balance enough perp cost while putting on enough magic attack bonus to compliment your merits to do decent damage, you have to keep the avatar out longer to build the TP to compensate which can cost you mp from perpetuation--unless you use favor to offset -3mp perpetuation. Surprise.. that nerfs avatar magic output 20%. And here we go again... now you have to melee even longer to offset the MAB nerf to get that damage back. So now you manage to get your damage while mitigating the mp cost... but now you have to wait longer to nuke because you are trying to build the TP to compensate the MAB nerf.

Do you not see the efficiency problem YET??!!!

There is no mp spent to improve a BLM efficiency in any way shape or form on a tier4 spell. Yes, he can use a higher teir, but that is now comparing apples and oranges. He can CHOOSE to spend more mp for that bigger spell, or....he can just change gear or food to do more damage with the same spell. In order to get more damage with an avatar's spell--you either have to swap gear and risk suffering more perpetuation cost, or wait for your avatar to gain TP. If you are building TP without a free avatar already, then you are spending mp to build that TP.

TLDR:
(which appears to be what you are doing, since you seem to like to quote only the parts of a post you challenge, when your challenge is already being discussed elsewhere in the post)

All a BLM has to do to increase the power of a spell is apply merits, take food and/or swap in some gear. Almost anything a SMN does to increase output for a single spell (outside of merits) either risks increased mp loss to perpetuation cost by swapping in pet magic attack gears, or otherwise delays casting while TP is built because they are offsetting the perpetuation cost at the expense of base magic potency by not swapping pet magic attack gears for -perp. gears.

Raist

Edited, Oct 3rd 2010 11:14pm by BDHERTZER
#8 Oct 04 2010 at 2:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mellowy wrote:

Until you fix this, you'll see me enjoy Abyssea and not care at all for the rest of the game. Take it as a hint that the only thing you ever did right since 2001, was Abyssea.

Is there anything but Abyssea right now ? People don't seem to care about the other contents anyway.
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#9 Oct 04 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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SeeYouTaru wrote:
Mellowy wrote:

Until you fix this, you'll see me enjoy Abyssea and not care at all for the rest of the game. Take it as a hint that the only thing you ever did right since 2001, was Abyssea.

Is there anything but Abyssea right now ? People don't seem to care about the other contents anyway.


I wish I knew why people did old content still. E bodies are free lot, and STILL we do einherjar twice a week to get more of them. Maybe people just need their 18th job fully geared as well.

Quote:
Edit: this is the point Mellowy was trying to make that you seemed to have missed, and steered the comparison, which prompted me to respond about the BLM comparison. What if a BLM suddenly had to spend more mp to maintain a T4 spell's damage. What would the outcry be?


I'm pretty sure I had two points.

1. Perpetuation serves no purpose at all. Carbuncle proved it 2003, Fenrir and Garuda proved it recently, and Abyssea proved that it counts for all avatars. It is about as defendable as saying wyvern recast should be 2 hours because it is a job specific ability that can't be subbed. I.e. only a fool would say it should stay. (Or someone who hates pet jobs)

2. Spirits still only cast tier IV spells BUT HAVE HIGHER PERP COST. Which is the same as a BLM having higher MP cost on their tier IV spells and getting no tier V spells. I.e. same ****, but at a worse MP efficiency. Hard to claim that is anything but a gigantic design flaw. (Or more likely ignorance)

In short, WHM, SCH, RDM, BLM, PUP got new spells, SMN didn't. Spot the 5 faults.
#10 Oct 04 2010 at 7:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Balance or not, the pet needs some kind of expense to it. BSTs (when not charming) have to expend gil (and a longish timer) to both summon and quickly heal their pets. PUPs have some modestly prohibitive timers on top of their gil expenses for Oils. DRG's timer is still pretty crappy, and Spirit Link almost seems best when you're soloing mobs that don't AoE with a mage sub. All a SMN has to spend is MP, and this cut down with -perp gear and further offset by Refresh from various sources. Essentially, free.

The only way I could really "justify" scrapping perpetuation is if the cost of summoning scales per level. It's a different route to a similar destination (One that shouldn't allow an invincible SMN if they can always run 50' from a mob before resummoning), but at the same time I can see people who just summon, BP, and release viewing it as a nerf. On the other hand, BP costs could also be adjusted slightly to pander to that style.

Question is, what do you do with the -perp gear? Turn it into (avatar specific if applicable) Refresh when it comes up? More generic stat boosts SMNs have wanted for years? I dunno.
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#11 Oct 05 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Edit: this is the point Mellowy was trying to make that you seemed to have missed, and steered the comparison, which prompted me to respond about the BLM comparison. What if a BLM suddenly had to spend more mp to maintain a T4 spell's damage. What would the outcry be?


The outcry would be that they'd use some different spells.

Remember when AM2s came out? Did anyone endlessly ***** about how (not) efficient they were? No, they just simply didn't use those spells (except for Manafont or whatever).

I don't know a single BLM here that makes it a point to refer to AM2s and how crappy they are and how they need to be buffed in virtually every single post that they make (particularly in threads that aren't even about BLMs or AM2s), but if they did, I'd be telling them the same thing.


Quote:
How does a SMN increast it's output per spell. Gear/merits or building Avatar's TP.


I don't know any SMNs that actually do this for BP purposes, btw. Just saying.

There's probably a good reason for it too -- maybe like, outside of Abyssea anyway, the extra MP and time that it takes doesn't justify what you get out of it?


Quote:
Do you not see the efficiency problem YET??!!!


What I'm not seeing is why you are blabbing endlessly about things like avatar TP and blood pacts, two things that do not mean anything at all to SMN spirits, which is what I was responding to in the first place.
#12 Oct 05 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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There's probably a good reason for it too -- maybe like, outside of Abyssea anyway, the extra MP and time that it takes doesn't justify what you get out of it?


What is this implying? That the extra MP is better used being a psuedo WHM?

Personally I don't see how MP can really be an issue now, SMN can get near a 1K:1K convert, has access to refresh both viz /RDM, can get -na spells when needed /SCH and have sublimtion. On top of that they have elemental siphon, and spirit taker for mobs that don't have nasty AoE and allow a SMN to Auto Attack the mobs. Does 14mp/tick really hurt you that much with all that MP restoration (13MP with natural auto refresh/10MP with refresh

HQEstaff(depends on avatar) -3
ACP body -2
AFv3+1 -2
Augurs -1
Nash -1

that is 9 right there. Get the full line of ToM staves and you are at -11 Perp easily, which makes every **** avatar except for elementals free to keep out. Anywhere in the **** game. Get AFv3+1 get ToM+1 that is another 2 for 13 with a RDM giving refresh 2 even elementals are only 3MP /tick. can get down to 2MP Tick with Conjurers ring, 1MP/tick with AFv2 body on the right day. Should you be in the right weather SMN horn gives you a net increase of 2 MP/tick.

What is the issue?



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#13 Oct 05 2010 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:

What is the issue?


That you have to do all the things you listed just to be a lesser version of what any other job can be with a fraction of the effort.
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#14 Oct 05 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
Huh?

whatchu talking about. I listed 5(well 10 if you want to get technical) items that virtually eliminate perp. That is hard to come by? Try being a RDM and building Nuke DMG/Nuke ACC/Enfeeb ACC/Enfeeb Potency/Fast Cast/Convert/Healing Potency/TP/WS/-PDT/-Interuppt sets then finding enough Inv space to carry it around with you at all times. Or a SCH in a similar position.

every job has to jump through hoops to get to the point where they can say they are at a high level of efficiency. I do not buy that perp is a hold back when you can eliminate it with a few items. IMO that is a very minimal amount of effort required to get minimal to no perp cost on your avatars.

I do however agree that Elementals should have had a magic tier added it only makes sense, hopefully SE will adress this to make them more useful...(would be nice if they let you control what spells they use as well.)
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#15 Oct 05 2010 at 8:34 AM Rating: Good
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The outcry would be that they'd use some different spells.


Again.. a BLM is a different animal in that regard--a SMN CAN'T choose a different spell. They are getting hit with MORE MP COST AND ARE STUCK WITH THE SAME SPELL, AND NO MORE DAMAGE FROM IT.

I think the reason behind that example was one of those situations where you use an absurd exageration to prove a point. What if a BLM was stuck with only a tier4 spell as it's highest option, but had to pay more MP to use it at higher levels?

I know that sounds absurd...but that is the point. When it comes to magical attacks, SMN is stuck with the same spells, that do the same damage--but they cost MORE MP to use. The ONLY way to increase a magical attack for SMN outside of merits and a handful of gear swaps, is to build TP with an avatar, which again costs more MP. Which is why you say this:

Quote:
I don't know any SMNs that actually do this for BP purposes, btw. Just saying.


And actually, I DO do this, and it makes a difference. I only have 2 merits so far on Wind Blade and Heavenly strike and my avatars only need a couple hits to hit the 25% mod from TP. I don't build them to 120+ TP too often for the 40-50% because of the MP bleed, but 2 or 3 hits to get to 100+ TP for the extra damage does pay off.

SMN really does get the shaft on this aspect of the job. They continue to have to pay more for the same results, and have to find more ways to try to compensate. At least other mages can simply use food to get a little more oomph from their magic (this option even extends to WHM). The only mod SMN gets to magic damage when leveling is what little increase in INT the summons receive (woohoo 1.5 x dINT in additional damage), or if their summons break a new MAB tier.

And look at all the gear options other mages have to augment their output as well and contrast that to SMN. So much SMN gear is centered around either -perp, +MP, or + skill (which doesn't directly boost magic damage)--they only have a handful of gear choices to augment pet MAD.

If they nixed the increases to perp cost (as in we are over 300 skill now, perhaps our concentration level is high enough for it to stop costing more mp for the same avatar now) or at the very least let skill over cap somehow be a mod to pet MAD--than this would probably be a non-issue. But...things are just too messed up now for them to consider such changes I guess.

At LEAST let the elementals get another tier of magic--it's only been 15-17 levels since some of them have gotten anything new to use.

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#16 Oct 05 2010 at 8:47 AM Rating: Default
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umm.... I'm already toting around 12 staves, 2 grips, roughly 3 sets of armor (maybe more b/c I have a mix/match group of situational pieces plus 2 full sets and started AF3), half a dozen neck pieces, a handful of belts, half a dozen rings......and that's just picking things off the top of my head while not in game--almost entirely for SMN alone. Only about 20 of all the items I carry for SMN are used on other jobs--mostly HQ Elemental Staves and MP recovery items.

Mages in general have to carry a crap load of gear, especially if they want to be prepared for getting beat on (or giving a beating as well).

Raist

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 10:54am by BDHERTZER
#17 Oct 05 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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There's no reason to be complaining about perp costs anymore... Between the magian trials for perp -6 staves, the new Caller's Pendant with weather:perp-1, Caller's Horn +1/+2 with Refresh, Caller's Pigaches +1/+2 with -2/-3 perp respectively... There are many ways to get free avatars now.

Even without weather you have:
-1 Auto Refresh
-6 Magian Staff
-1 Caller's Horn +1
-2 ACP Body or Yinyang Robe
-1 Nashira Gages
-1 Evoker's Ring
-1 Augur's Brais
-3 Caller's Pigaches +2

That's a total of Perp -16, enough to have any avatar free aside from spirits. Add Refresh and even your spirits should be free or close to it. Not to mention very few of those items are outside the casual player's reach. Magian staves can be soloed, Caller's +1 gear can be quested, ACP Body is easy to get, Evoker's Ring easy quest. Nashira Gages & Augur's Brais are a little more difficult, but Conjurer's Ring could also stand in for one of those if you don't mind yellow HP. Either that or Sanction/Sigil refresh.

The way I see it, SE has essentially granted your request already with all these new items they've added. Perp is already a thing of the past, for those bold enough to pursue the above items.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 8:45am by Pergatory
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#18 Oct 05 2010 at 1:10 PM Rating: Decent
according to some posters thats to much work to get what you want.
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#19 Oct 05 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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Excuse my smn ignorance but if they did get rid of perp how much gear could be thrown out? And wouldn't that cause some huge upset after wasting that time getting perp gear?

Also I'm not really sure SE would do gear revamps unless they were just wording errors so they would just make all new gear for smn to get. >.<!
#20 Oct 05 2010 at 7:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Honestly, I'd never touch the -perp magian staves solely because it's 8 more slots in an already clogged *********** of an inventory that's steadily filling more and more with R/E gear. I had 13 75s pre-cap raise, and gear for like 5 of them I had to mule off (BST and CHR stuff being the biggest offender). Since then, I've only leveled RDM, THF, BLU, DRK, and SAM to 85, on the way collecting at least 8 magian weapons, 2 misc. like Plaga and Auric, 14/15 of Perle/Aurore/Teal, and have 10 AF+1 pieces on top of that. I threw out maybe 5 things in storage one afternoon, but obviously I'm still behind the curve there.

Then again, SE cleaning up our inventories with gear consolidation and more storage options has been a need for a long time now. Still need bigger active use inventories, too. My "style" of RDM probably wouldn't be happy until we had 120 slots to play with if going by current equipment options.
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#21Wonder Gem rdmcandie, Posted: Oct 05 2010 at 8:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Then don't not everyone has 8 jobs with piles of gear, some people only have one or two. Just because you have no use for them does not make them useless. Christ you need a new argument the out dated INV crap for your 13 jobs bs has been old since 2007.
#22 Oct 05 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Wonder Gem rdmcandie wrote:
Then don't not everyone has 8 jobs with piles of gear, some people only have one or two. Just because you have no use for them does not make them useless. Christ you need a new argument the out dated INV crap for your 13 jobs bs has been old since 2007.

Old, but still relevant, is it not?

More relevant as time goes by, actually.
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#23 Oct 05 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Default
No its relevant to her or him, and people who know they have inventory issues. Thats like saying, well I am not going to get a Black Belt on my monk, I know its like one o the better things I can get to better my job, but because I have 8 other jobs I can't afford the inventory space for this ra/ex item. To me its just inv-1.





Edited, Oct 5th 2010 10:50pm by rdmcandie
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#24 Oct 05 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Good
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yes, we can fairly easily mitigate most of the perpetuation cost now that they REVERSED the bumps in the previous update (provided you can put the time into it--took me from June to just last week to get 4 staves to -6 perp working on them almost religiously, and 28 stones JUST to get the seals to complete Caller's AF+1 feet). Note I said most, not all. I still have 3 avatars at -3 perp with +1 magians and Callers +1 feet if favor is not up.

And for whatever reason, sometimes we may not want to go /RDM or /SCH (reraise earrings prices keep jumping up, for example)--especially if there is a strong chance of us dying without someone to raise us. For example, I don't even have SCH unlocked, so my only typical subs are WHM or RDM. For campaign and such where I know I may die repeatedly, I go /WHM.

That being said, I don't have free avatars all the time as it is now. It will get worse if the cost of perpetuation continues going up and there still isn't easily obtainable gear to offset the increases. I wouldn't mind it so much if we were getting something to really justify it, but so far what they've added seemed more like afterthoughts. The light/darkness based moves they added were more like merit BP ideas that never got integrated that they just threw in now just so they can say they gave all avatars a magic attack post 70.

That is the problem--they can't seem to strike a reasonable balance. If they were to simply STOP THE INCREASES from here on out, than maybe everyone would resign themselves to that being the cost like they did at 75. Unless they are going to do something to the job to really justify the increased cost, there is going to be unrest. For instance...if they had unlocked tier5's at least, it might appease some players.

Maybe they'll pay attention to the complaints again and start giving elementals new spells next update....

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#25 Oct 05 2010 at 9:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yet, one item is a **** of a lot easier to manage than eight.

Frankly, inventory is mandatory in a game that boasts 20 jobs, then the exponential combinations that come about due to subjobs. Yes, I've weened my usual jobs from like 9 to 5. Depending on how tedious gear will be to get at 86+ (paired with Traverser Stone restrictions), that number could further dwindle. I'm sorry we're not one job wonders like you are and have chosen to partake of one the game's features with some sense of regularity.
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#26Wonder Gem rdmcandie, Posted: Oct 05 2010 at 9:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hey I don't discredit your style of play, but just because you find smething useless because you have X number of jobs and it doesn't make sense to get 8 situational Items (since they do nothing but -perp they are heavily situational) but like I said not everyone does have X jobs and not everyone is drowning in inventory, and to some people these staves can be highly useful.
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